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Why is rob so hesitant to release information? Barely 2 years with almost no information or hype seems like it would hurt the game pretty bad.

I don't think it is fair to jump to the conclusion that Rob is hesitant to release information.

Kirk

Quote from: Captain Kirk on April 05, 2013, 05:14:57 PM

Quote from: Daniel on April 05, 2013, 05:09:17 PM

Why is rob so hesitant to release information? Barely 2 years with almost no information or hype seems like it would hurt the game pretty bad.

I don't think it is fair to jump to the conclusion that Rob is hesitant to release information.

Kirk

I think it's pretty fair; I mean... The only information we've recieved has been from playtesters  like Gabe. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way bashing rob; on the contrary I'm suggesting that going so long with barely any info is hurtful to the game.

I still don't think that is fair. I have been on the boards for almost a decade now and I don't recall a year in which Rob himself shared information concerning new sets on the boards. All of the "leaked" information has come from playtesters or others in the know.

Also the information "leak" so far for the I/J starters is pretty consistent with the pattern from previous sets.
- Playtesters post hints in subtle and not-so-subtle posts for any period of months leading up to the completion of a new set.
- After set is sent to printers Bryon writes several articles periodically to build up hype for the release by highlighting 1 new card each time and describing the interaction of other new cards with existing cards.

However, the card list for new sets is usually only released the week prior to nationals or at nationals. This year because the set was obviously not released at nationals the set list will be released at a different time.

I disagree that Rob not pushing out the card list by this point hurts the game. The "hurt" caused to the game is the delay in the release of new cards (and we all know that was purely due to economic reasons) and whether Rob puts the card list on the internet the day the set finalized or not doesn't "hurt" the game more. I furthermore believe it was wise for Rob not to release the card list until the set was finalized - which it now is. It wouldn't make sense to get players' hopes up concerning a potential new card or ability that receives a last minute change. So now we can look forward to when Rob will release the information.

Kirk

whether Rob puts the card list on the internet the day the set finalized or not doesn't "hurt" the game more.

I'm not so sure about this. As Gabe pointed out in his original post on this topic, the sooner the details on the cards are released, the sooner they become legal. I'm not sure how long it takes from the point the cards go to print to when they are in players' hands, but when it was first announced that the cards would be delayed, I heard "four months" being thrown around a lot. Based on what multiple Elders have said, I think it's safe to assume we'll be getting the set before Nats (which is almost exactly four months away) this year, but the longer it takes for people to start deck building with the new cards, the less likely it is that the cards will be legal at Nats (or sooner). This is obvious conjecture, but I imagine that there are some players (especially those who have to travel far to get to Long Island) who view the prospect of playing in a meta with no new cards to be a dealbreaker. At least for me, personally, a combination of a far distance to travel and no new cards (that are legal) would have likely have kept me from going this year. I'm not saying that it definitely will, but less people at Nats means less overall hype for the game, which certainly doesn't help. From my angle, I cannot see a logical reason for why the card list shouldn't be released after they've been sent.

That's not to say that I disagree with you though, though I've long held that the playtest group should be larger to help ensure that the cards are the best possible quality, since I believe that more eyes is always a good thing. I understand why Rob prefers to keep the group small, and play his cards close to the chest (so to speak). I disagree with it, but on many levels it does make sense.

Let me reiterate how grateful I am to Gabe for bringing the suggestion to Rob. Even if he chooses not to implement the idea, I am content.

I have expressed my concern in the past from a trader's perspective. The playtesters know which cards are going to be the most desirable, both for purchase and trade. Sometimes the cards that end up being the most sought after are not the ones that stand out intially in the card list. If the playtesters start trading/buying these cards as soon as they come out, this will drive up the prices on TLG for the rest of the population, as well as reduce inventory and trade availability. Ken usually starts all cards off at the same level, then adjusts according to demand. The playtesters get a head start, and they get lower prices (typically). Can you imagine buying Grapes and Mayhem for $5 or less when they first came out? "Sure, I'll take 10 of each, Ken." 

I am starting all cards off at the same level ($2 for starter deck cards and $3 for tin cards), and I am accepting pre-orders whenever we know what the cards are. However, I am guaranteeing that I will not increase the price on any of the cards until at least 1 month after they are released. After the release, I may (and probably will) reduce the price of many of the cards during that month. My hope is that I can keep the cards at those prices or lower for longer, but we will have to see what demand brings about over that time. Hopefully with them being used at bigger tournaments sooner after their release, people will get to be on more even footing in figuring out which ones are "better"!

The starter decks and tins will be released at the same time, whenever that is.

YMT, can cite a specific example of this actually happening?

I appreciate that you hold the play testers ability in such high regard. I wish you would do the same for our integrity. But you give our ability far more credit than we deserve if you believe we have figured out the future meta and know every card that will be sought after. Even if we thought we had it all figured out we're often wrong.

I believe the general public also over estimates how many people actually play test. Very few people play more than a handful of games. Some of the elders don't play test at all. They look at a list on paper and draw their conclusions from there. That type of assessment can be inaccurate. Cards that appear seemingly harmless on paper can turn out to be a real powerhouse and cards that look great can turn out disappointing.

Although the people that have access to the final list do have a few months more than the rest of the community, I do not know of one person who spends time on that card list after it's complete. We've tested so many variations of most of the cards that by the time they are released we've forgotten exactly which version we ended up using. At this point the elders are asking "what can we start working on next?" which is still undecided. Not looking back at the list to try to gain an edge.

Are there cards in the new stuff I want to get. Absolutely! But the fact is that all the elders are long time players, tournament hosts and playgroup leaders. We already have more cards than they know what to do with. We'd rather trade from our large collections for new stuff than pay the premium prices for singles.

While I understand that you believe this to be a valid concern, the bigger picture reveals that it's unwarranted.

To avoid any unnecessary accusations, I will use an older example that I have used in past discussions related to this. The Warriors Harvest Time was one of the highest valued cards before the release of the promo version. Collectors would pay or trade top dollar to get one. I was one person who was trying to acquire one, but I was holding out for less than the premium. In short, I did not want to pay $40 for one, but I would have paid $20 for one.

Just before the promo version was released, during the playtesting phase, Warriors Harvest Times suddenly starting showing up in trade threads and on eBay. Since I had been looking for one, I remember the sudden influx quite well. I was almost tempted to buy one of the eBay Buy it Now ones for $25, but I decided to wait for some of the other auction-style ones to end. But as I waited, more showed up on eBay and on the boards. This, of course, made me suspicious since I am not a very trusting person (as you can probably tell - so no offense to the playtesters individually). I decided to hold off, and sure enough the Harvest Time promo was announced sometime later.

Basically, people with inside information were trying to unload their Harvest Times before the value dropped, but that made people like me vulnerable since I did not know the promo version was coming. That kind of action will get you arrested on Wall Street, which is why I find it very disconcerting for a Christian card game.

Now I realize that the majority of the playtesters would not do this, so I do appreciate the integrity of the majority, but that does not guarantee that these kind of practices are not happening, especially in places where they cannot be regulated.

Quote from: Gabe on April 11, 2013, 11:48:35 AM

While I understand that you believe this to be a valid concern, the bigger picture reveals that it's unwarranted.

I'm glad to hear that! 

That is an interesting story, and I think I recall you bringing that up before. I agree that that should be avoided, and it is something that we should certainly watch out for. But there are a few cards coming out that would have the potential for a similar situation, but I haven't seen any significant movement on those fronts in the market.

I know what card I'd buy in bulk and I'm not a play tester.

I know that I'll be stocking up on the new, rumored Son of God that can negate Lost Souls... and unloading all my old ones. Anyone want to buy a Son of God?

I know that I'll be stocking up on the new, rumored Son of God that can negate Lost Souls... and unloading all my old ones. Anyone want to buy a Son of God?

I just hope the Son of God has a blue border like the original so that it matches New Jerusalem.   

Quote from: Platinum_Angel on April 11, 2013, 10:48:31 PM

I just hope the Son of God has a blue border like the original so that it matches New Jerusalem.   

The blue border is my favorite SoG to deck too. But wouldn't you want the new one to have a different border color so you can tell when your opponent uses the "negate" SoG vs the old one? Or maybe we should just give it different art. I know, make all dominants borderless going forward. Then there would be no mistake which one was being used.

Better yet, make them all completely blank, save for their name in big bold letters.  Maybe we could even get a blank dominant that's a wildcard, copies any dominant in the game (but prohibits you from playing that dom later in the game, and can't copy it if you have already played it).

Quote from: Platinum_Angel on April 11, 2013, 10:48:31 PM

I just hope the Son of God has a blue border like the original so that it matches New Jerusalem.   

The blue border is my favorite SoG to deck too. But wouldn't you want the new one to have a different border color so you can tell when your opponent uses the "negate" SoG vs the old one? Or maybe we should just give it different art. I know, make all dominants borderless going forward. Then there would be no mistake which one was being used.

(Do i detect a possible hint here?)

Full art would be sweet for dominants!

A new full art SoG promo would be awesome!!