Author Topic: Card Design Changes to Some Dual Card Types (Read 27845 times)

Gabe · « **on:** April 18, 2018, 05:19:00 PM »

Until now we've created dual card types 3 different ways. Covenants and Curses shared one expanded icon box, dual Enhancements shared one compact icon box and everything else got two icons (one on the left, one on on the right).

Going forward we plan to use 2 icons (left and right) for all dual card types. We believe this will better communicate what is happening when the card is played. These are some of the benefits we expect from this change.

Consistency with dual card types will make it easier to explain and teach to new or less active players.
We hope that by separating the icon box it makes it clearer that only 1 icon is used when the card is played, the other one is ignored.
~~We feel it's best if all cards in the artifact pile share the same icon, so going forward the grail will be used for Curses.~~

We hope that you will join us in looking over the cards that have been changed. With the changes taking place this late in the process it's more likely that an error will slip past us. Your attention to detail can help us send these off error free.

For your viewing pleasure, here is a google document containing the 28 update images.

There have been a number of people involved in bringing about this change, but none more than Nathan Wagenknecht. Please give him a round of applause and a thank you.

***EDIT 4/21***

After listening to the feedback we've received here and through direction communication, with much internal discussion and prayer, a couple additional adjustments have been made.

#1 - We've decided to keep the snake icon for the artifact side of the Curse cards. While both the grail and the snake have valid arguments supporting them, we feel it will be best to stay consistent with past Curses. A large part of this decision is based on the thematic element of not using the Holy Grail icon on a card that is intended to represent sin and discipline. This is the reason the snake was originally chosen and will continue to be used.

#2 - From now forward dual affiliation cards that need the warrior, weapon or territory class icon will use it on all appropriate sides. As part of this change we have downsized the icons and justified them with the outside of the brigade box. As a result, all cards with those icons have been adjusted, not just the ones with icons on both sides.

Please take this opportunity to check out several more of the updated card images, but more importantly help us make sure that these late changes don't result in any errors being sent to the printer.

Icon size changes group 1

Icon size changes group 2

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to the discussion below.

(on behalf of the elder team)

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 18, 2018, 06:13:33 PM »

Just out of curiosity is Jehu's sword weapon class as a GE but not as an EE? Or does the weapon class icon hold for both alignments?.

Xonathan · « **Reply #2 on:** April 18, 2018, 06:26:53 PM »

Unless specified the weapon class icon applies to the whole card just like the territory class symbol

NathanW · « **Reply #3 on:** April 18, 2018, 06:27:49 PM »

Here are the sections of the REG describing territory class and warrior/weapon class and dual alignment/icon cards for reference.

Quote

Territory Class Character

Spoiler (hover to show)
Territory Class characters have abilities that activate when placed in battle in the same way
as all other characters. The abilities also activate each time the character is placed in a
territory. Territory Class character abilities that are active outside of battle are active while
the character remains in the territory. Territory Class characters are distinguished by a tan
icon with a tent and palm trees below the icon box.

Territory Class Enhancement

Spoiler (hover to show)
Territory Class Enhancements can be played in battle in the same way as normal
Enhancements, or they can be played on a character in your territory during your Preparation
or Discard Phase. If played outside of battle, they are discarded when their abilities are
complete, unless otherwise specified. Territory Class Enhancements are distinguished by a
tan icon with a tent and palm trees below the icon box.

Warrior (Class Character)

Spoiler (hover to show)
This is a special kind of character marked by a shield icon on the left side of the card. A
warrior-class character may hold one weapon-class Enhancement outside of battle. Warrior-class
characters are referred to as “warriors” in abilities.

Weapon (Class Enhancement)

Spoiler (hover to show)
This is a special kind of Enhancement marked by a shield icon on the left side of the card.
Weapon-class Enhancements may be held by warrior-class characters outside of battle, and
may be equipped to a warrior-class character during a player’s Preparation or Discard Phases.
Weapon-class Enhancements are referred to as “weapons” in abilities.

The special ability on a weapon-class Enhancement only activates in battle. Outside of battle,
weapon-class Enhancements follow the same rules as held cards by following their bearers to
any location in which they are moved, except when the holding character is captured, in
which case the weapon-class Enhancement is discarded.

During battle, weapon-class Enhancements can also be played using the rules of initiative.
During battle resolution, when Enhancements are normally discarded, a warrior-class
character’s controller may decide to keep one weapon-class Enhancement on the warrior-class
character.

Dual-Alignment

Spoiler (hover to show)
Dual-alignment cards have two different alignments. Most dual-alignment cards are dual icon
cards.

Dual-alignment cards count as their face value alignment for deck building. If face value is
both alignments, if neutral is not one of them, the card is counted as neutral, otherwise the
card is counted as the other alignment.

Dual Icon

Spoiler (hover to show)
Dual icon cards have two identities, which are associated with separate card icons. The icons
can be different icons in the same icon box, or in separate icon boxes (they may be the same
or different icons). A dual icon card may indicate that the face value is one identity with a
trigger or ability to change to the other identity, or it may be both identities at face value and
only becomes one identity when put on the playing surface.

A dual icon card can be targeted by it's face value identity(ies) while at face value, but it is
only targeted by the identities that match the specified card type and/or alignment of the
targeting ability. Once put on the playing surface, a dual icon card can only be targeted by
the active identity or as a dual icon card. Targeting a card as a dual icon card can be in
general or the name of a dual icon card with its identities (see Covenant or Curse), and can
use all or part of either or both identities.

I think some clarification of how class icons affect dual icon cards could be added in the REG but exactly how and where I don't know atm. But Yes, Warrior, Weapon and Territory class icons affect the whole card unless otherwise stated on the card. (like a lot of the dual enhancement character cards from RoJ) As far as I'm aware that is not stated anywhere in the REG (I could be missing it somewhere though)

goalieking87 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 18, 2018, 06:45:39 PM »

I think this will simplify things for the game. (The announcement above)

I am curious why the warrior/weapon class icons and TC are not depicted on both sides though. In a separate thread it sounded like it was 100% decided that this is how it would be, and when the symbol applies to just one side that it will be noted in the identifier.

The reason I ask is because it seems like relying on the identifier uses valuable limited space that might need to be used for something else. It also seems like having the WC/TC symbol on both sides would help eliminate confusion the same as splitting up the icons.

Any information that can be shared about why it was decided against printing them this way would be appreciated.

Thanks

Bobbert · « **Reply #5 on:** April 18, 2018, 07:37:18 PM »

Quote from: goalieking87 on April 18, 2018, 06:45:39 PM

I think this will simplify things for the game. (The announcement above)

I am curious why the warrior/weapon class icons and TC are not depicted on both sides though. In a separate thread it sounded like it was 100% decided that this is how it would be, and when the symbol applies to just one side that it will be noted in the identifier.

The reason I ask is because it seems like relying on the identifier uses valuable limited space that might need to be used for something else. It also seems like having the WC/TC symbol on both sides would help eliminate confusion the same as splitting up the icons.

Any information that can be shared about why it was decided against printing them this way would be appreciated.

Thanks

While I've heard and understand the reasoning behind having it on only one side, I'm inclined to agree. The identifier line has always been valuable real estate, and that's unlikely to change. It seems like with the dual changes here, now would be the perfect time to establish the convention of printing it on both sides so that cards like Hope aren't as limited in identifier space.

Gabe · « **Reply #6 on:** April 18, 2018, 07:46:54 PM »

Quote from: goalieking87 on April 18, 2018, 06:45:39 PM

I am curious why the warrior/weapon class icons and TC are not depicted on both sides though. In a separate thread it sounded like it was 100% decided that this is how it would be, and if it is only one-sided that it will be included in the identifier.

The reason I ask is because it seems like relying on the identifier uses valuable limited space that might need to be used for something else. It also seems like having the WC/TC symbol on both sides would eliminate confusion the same as splitting up the icons.

Any information that can be shared about why it was decided against would be appreciated.

The class symbol applies to the entire card, not one alignment or the other, unless it's specified in the identifier. The need to specify that only one side gets to use the class icon is a rare exception so it doesn't limit card design all that much.

If you can find it could you link to the thread where you got the impression it was 100% decided we were making a change?

When discussing the current overhaul of dual card types this was talked about. One drawback is that King Abijam, The Roman Jailer, Joab and King Saul would take a hit if we made the change now. There are also feelings that it clutters up the card face too much. We could shrink the icons to compensate for that. It just didn't seem entirely necessary given that the system we currently have in place works. This is an attempt to communicate the reasons others didn't go with using icons on both sides, not my personal feelings. My preference is that we would have always used the icon on each side it applies and I'm in favor of the change now.

GreatGray · « **Reply #7 on:** April 18, 2018, 09:02:27 PM »

This is a pretty good change to see; however, should the word "Curse" be put in the identifier for immediate simplicity going forward? With all of the old curses, the snake in the icon box was super helpful to distinguish between curse, covenant, and neutral artifact. With other cards that reference curses like Balaam, new players might not realize that an artifact icon with another evil enhancement icon is a curse. It would just look to them like another artifact. Older players I know will probably not care, but younger players are going to question what is or isn't a curse because of the Grail Icon.

kariusvega · « **Reply #8 on:** April 18, 2018, 09:05:55 PM »

Quote from: GreatGray on April 18, 2018, 09:02:27 PM

This is a pretty good change to see; however, should the word "Curse" be put in the identifier for immediate simplicity going forward? With all of the old curses, the snake in the icon box was super helpful to distinguish between curse, covenant, and neutral artifact. With other cards that reference curses like Balaam, new players might not realize that an artifact icon with another evil enhancement icon is a curse. It would just look to them like another artifact. Older players I know will probably not care, but younger players are going to question what is or isn't a curse because of the Grail Icon.

goalieking87 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 18, 2018, 09:09:07 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 18, 2018, 07:46:54 PM

If you can find it could you link to the thread where you got the impression it was 100% decided we were making a change?

Quote from: Gabe on April 17, 2018, 09:16:36 AM

Quote from: Watchman492 on April 17, 2018, 08:32:04 AM
Personally I hope more cards like Fifth Seal / Justice Seekers, which has the TC symbol on both sides, are printed for clarity’s sake.

We've discussed that. It isn't going to happen. One icon applies to both sides unless otherwise noted. Sorry.

This is what I was referencing, from the thread regarding the new Hope card.

goalieking87 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 18, 2018, 09:12:41 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on April 18, 2018, 09:05:55 PM

Quote from: GreatGray on April 18, 2018, 09:02:27 PM
This is a pretty good change to see; however, should the word "Curse" be put in the identifier for immediate simplicity going forward? With all of the old curses, the snake in the icon box was super helpful to distinguish between curse, covenant, and neutral artifact. With other cards that reference curses like Balaam, new players might not realize that an artifact icon with another evil enhancement icon is a curse. It would just look to them like another artifact. Older players I know will probably not care, but younger players are going to question what is or isn't a curse because of the Grail Icon.

Watchman · « **Reply #11 on:** April 18, 2018, 09:15:23 PM »

Quote from: goalieking87 on April 18, 2018, 09:12:41 PM

Quote from: kariusvega on April 18, 2018, 09:05:55 PM
Quote from: GreatGray on April 18, 2018, 09:02:27 PM
This is a pretty good change to see; however, should the word "Curse" be put in the identifier for immediate simplicity going forward? With all of the old curses, the snake in the icon box was super helpful to distinguish between curse, covenant, and neutral artifact. With other cards that reference curses like Balaam, new players might not realize that an artifact icon with another evil enhancement icon is a curse. It would just look to them like another artifact. Older players I know will probably not care, but younger players are going to question what is or isn't a curse because of the Grail Icon.

Same with Covenants.

Daniel · « **Reply #12 on:** April 18, 2018, 09:24:34 PM »

This always bothered me. The snake symbol was definitely cool, but super inconsistent. Nice changes, although I still think Redemption needs a total design overhaul due to stuff like this

NathanW · « **Reply #13 on:** April 18, 2018, 09:25:17 PM »

Personally I think class icons should be specific to each side and the older cards affected should be errated to work the same way they do currently both saving identifier line space and making class icons on dual icon cards more intuitive. Interestingly the old squished box DAEs wouldn't have to be errated because they technically have the class icons below both icon "boxes". That's just my opinion on the class icons matter.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 18, 2018, 09:25:42 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on April 18, 2018, 09:15:23 PM

Quote from: goalieking87 on April 18, 2018, 09:12:41 PM
Quote from: kariusvega on April 18, 2018, 09:05:55 PM
Quote from: GreatGray on April 18, 2018, 09:02:27 PM
This is a pretty good change to see; however, should the word "Curse" be put in the identifier for immediate simplicity going forward? With all of the old curses, the snake in the icon box was super helpful to distinguish between curse, covenant, and neutral artifact. With other cards that reference curses like Balaam, new players might not realize that an artifact icon with another evil enhancement icon is a curse. It would just look to them like another artifact. Older players I know will probably not care, but younger players are going to question what is or isn't a curse because of the Grail Icon.

Same with Covenants.

NathanW · « **Reply #15 on:** April 18, 2018, 09:31:25 PM »

I find it ironic that people would like to both change how class icons work in order to save space in the identifier line as well as add 7 or 10 extra characters on every curse and covenant

might as well throw cities in there. (Unless everybody already has that memorized)

PS. I'm half joking here.

EDIT: I think you have a few too many returns in that post up there.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 18, 2018, 09:36:54 PM »

Quote from: tripleplayNa1 on April 18, 2018, 09:31:25 PM

I find it ironic that people would like to both change how class icons work in order to save space in the identifier line as well as add 7 or 10 extra characters on every curse and covenant might as well throw cities in there. (Unless everybody already has that memorized)

PS. I'm half joking here.

EDIT: I think you have a few too many returns in that post up there.

oops just fixed that.

If we are going to change curses and covenants I 100% agree that the cards should have a Curse or Covenant identifier on the card.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #17 on:** April 18, 2018, 09:53:05 PM »

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on April 18, 2018, 09:25:42 PM

Quote from: Watchman492 on April 18, 2018, 09:15:23 PM
Quote from: goalieking87 on April 18, 2018, 09:12:41 PM
Quote from: kariusvega on April 18, 2018, 09:05:55 PM
Quote from: GreatGray on April 18, 2018, 09:02:27 PM
This is a pretty good change to see; however, should the word "Curse" be put in the identifier for immediate simplicity going forward? With all of the old curses, the snake in the icon box was super helpful to distinguish between curse, covenant, and neutral artifact. With other cards that reference curses like Balaam, new players might not realize that an artifact icon with another evil enhancement icon is a curse. It would just look to them like another artifact. Older players I know will probably not care, but younger players are going to question what is or isn't a curse because of the Grail Icon.

Same with Covenants.

Ironisaac · « **Reply #18 on:** April 18, 2018, 10:00:26 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on April 18, 2018, 09:53:05 PM

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on April 18, 2018, 09:25:42 PM
Quote from: Watchman492 on April 18, 2018, 09:15:23 PM
Quote from: goalieking87 on April 18, 2018, 09:12:41 PM
Quote from: kariusvega on April 18, 2018, 09:05:55 PM
Quote from: GreatGray on April 18, 2018, 09:02:27 PM
This is a pretty good change to see; however, should the word "Curse" be put in the identifier for immediate simplicity going forward? With all of the old curses, the snake in the icon box was super helpful to distinguish between curse, covenant, and neutral artifact. With other cards that reference curses like Balaam, new players might not realize that an artifact icon with another evil enhancement icon is a curse. It would just look to them like another artifact. Older players I know will probably not care, but younger players are going to question what is or isn't a curse because of the Grail Icon.

Same with Covenants.

is this what we're doing now?

NathanW · « **Reply #19 on:** April 18, 2018, 10:24:21 PM »

First of all, I realize these are not your views and that you are only expressing others viewpoints.

Quote from: Gabe on April 18, 2018, 07:46:54 PM

The class symbol applies to the entire card, not one alignment or the other, unless it's specified in the identifier. The need to specify that only one side gets to use the class icon is a rare exception so it doesn't limit card design all that much.

IMO It would be equally confusing for a player to see an icon on the left side of a card and think it only applies to that side. If a player saw the icon on both sides there would be no doubt it applied to both sides. It would be equally important in my mind to say in the identifier line "both sides are territory class" as well as "x side is territory class".

Quote from: Gabe on April 18, 2018, 07:46:54 PM

When discussing the current overhaul of dual card types this was talked about. One drawback is that King Abijam, The Roman Jailer, Joab and King Saul would take a hit if we made the change now.

IMO the idea that saving the current functionality of 4 cards is drastically less important than setting up Dual Alignment/Split Box cards for a good future.

Quote from: Gabe on April 18, 2018, 07:46:54 PM

There are also feelings that it clutters up the card face too much. We could shrink the icons to compensate for that. It just didn't seem entirely necessary given that the system we currently have in place works.

I agree it would probably clutter up the card face too much but again that is a cosmetic issue. and IMO just because the current system works doesn't mean it couldn't be improved or changed to work better and make more sense to new and old players alike in the future.

Quote from: Gabe on April 18, 2018, 07:46:54 PM

This is an attempt to communicate the reasons others didn't go with using icons on both sides, not my personal feelings.

Quote from: Gabe on April 18, 2018, 07:46:54 PM

My preference is that we would have always used the icon on each side it applies and I'm in favor of the change now.

This was an especially pivotal set for Dual Alignment Enhancements as 21 are being added to the existing 29 and I'm glad I could at least help by starting the discussion that led to the decision to split the boxes. (I'm very thankful for the elder team being open to ideas)

IMO it would be ideal if we never had to specify anything about the type or class of card in the identifier line because to me that sounds very much like a band-aid on a non-ideal system to start. (and I agree if there was any time to change that it would be in this set) (of course excepting cards that change from one type to another under special circumstances)

The Guardian · « **Reply #20 on:** April 18, 2018, 10:30:39 PM »

IMO putting class icons on both sides would be a step backwards after getting the special ability off the artwork.

NathanW · « **Reply #21 on:** April 18, 2018, 10:33:33 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on April 18, 2018, 10:30:39 PM

IMO putting class icons on both sides would be a step backwards after getting the special ability off the artwork.

A step backward cosmetically perhaps without resizing the icons but IMO a large step forward when it comes to the intuitiveness of class icons on dual alignment/split box cards.

I'll just add that to me it is very intuitive to think of dual alignment/split box cards as literally 2 separate cards in the same card that sometimes but not always share the same ability. With class icons being another crossover between each "separate card" represented on the same card that just confuses the concept of dual alignment/split box cards in my mind.

Watchman · « **Reply #22 on:** April 18, 2018, 10:41:47 PM »

I know I’ve said a million times, and I’m sure Gabe and others are tired of hearing me say it, but since this split icon announcement I want to stress something.

When the general rule (not worded on the card) is for a symbol, such as TC, is meant to apply to the whole DA card, but then say that only on rare occasions will it be used on both sides of the card under the alignment boxes (such as Fifth Seal / Justice Seekers), what is the expected outcome from this? It will only create unnecessary confusion and continual questions by players on the forum (as seen, yet again, at the top of this thread by embeejay, who is a seasoned player).

It’s not so much a big deal when you have one icon box with dual alignment symbols in that box and the TC symbol under that box because the player will know that the TC applies to either alignment. However, now that the alignments are splitting into two boxes as the new standard, which is intended for consistency of DACs, along with this change the placing of TC or WC symbol on both sides is also needed for consistency and for clarity.

Our brains work in such a way so that they want to keep things organized and categorized for easier comprehension and analysis. So when I see cards like Forbidden Fruit and Two by Two alignment boxes being split, but see TC under the GE side only I automatically think (especially when there’s no identifier telling me otherwise, like Fourth Seal / Death; and how Fifth Seal has TC symbol on both sides the card) that if it’s played as a GE I can also use it in territory, but I couldn’t use it in territory if I played the EE side.

To simplify what I’m saying, you cannot make a rule that the TC applies to the entire card but then arbitrarily make a card like Fifth Seal that completely contradicts that rule and expect players, especially new players, to know the difference; then, make cards like Forbidden Fruit and expect players to know the TC symbol is meant for both alignments. Imagine if I’m a new player (or seasoned player) and I have Fifth Seal and Forbidden Fruit in my hand. What am I going to think about how I can play Forbidden Fruit? I’m going to think that the TC only applies to the GE side. This is poor game design.

I agree 100% with Daniel that a complete overhaul of Redemption is needed if all of these changes are being made. It’s like putting new wine into old wine skins. This is why set rotation can be beneficial. But in the meantime, let’s please have some consistency and clarity as much as possible with this game and not make things more ambiguous than need be.

I’ve said my peace about this; I’m finished.

The Guardian · « **Reply #23 on:** April 18, 2018, 10:44:26 PM »

For TC enhancements I can understand (somewhat), but has anyone ever been confused about the DAC who are Warrior Class?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #24 on:** April 18, 2018, 10:46:44 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on April 18, 2018, 10:30:39 PM

IMO putting class icons on both sides would be a step backwards after getting the special ability off the artwork.

I disagree, the icons are already directly below the stat box, and they only sit on part of the image and part of the border

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Author Topic: Card Design Changes to Some Dual Card Types (Read 27845 times)

kariusvega

Daniel