Author Topic: Banlist Brainstorming (Read 15556 times)

Master KChief · « **on:** November 20, 2012, 11:23:16 PM »

Rob recently mentioned the possibility of banning cards, and this is an avenue I'd really like to explore. Let's be honest: the 'counters' that are printed each set in response to the meta from the year before really don't cut it in the long run. Sure they can help when drawn, but that can sometimes be a challenge in and of itself to accomplish before your opponent explodes. Add in the fact there are no best of 3 games (where counters really do shine), the counters we have today are usually relegated to the binder in consideration of cards that are far more favorable in almost any matchup. This is why I think a ban list can be very advantageous in helping build a healthy balanced meta. Here is an example of one of my thoughts on what I believe could be a candidate for the banhammer:

1. The Garden Tomb: Essentially taking out one of the core phases of the game was in my opinion a very terrible idea. Not being able to even attempt a block is not fair in the slightest. The conditions on TGT are easily met which makes it low risk with a considerably high reward. The lack of viable counters also gives it high marks. There are many oft used counters in circulation that deal with the most popular splash defenses of today (which was the reason for TGT's inception), so I feel the need of TGT is completely unwarranted at this stage of the game. Let's encourage more back and forth battles, not the sacky walk-ins because a player didn't even have the option to block in the first place.

What cards do you think could possibly be banned to encourage a healthy meta? What cards from Dan N' Friends, Fight by the Numbers Banding, and Disciples need to be looked at more closely and checked to help balance them against other deck types that are weaker?

drb1200 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 20, 2012, 11:43:17 PM »

I only believe that New Jerusalem should be banned for tourney play

Master KChief · « **Reply #2 on:** November 20, 2012, 11:44:01 PM »

What are your thoughts and reasoning behind that? On the same note, why not Son of God as well? Isn't New Jerusalem a weaker version of Son of God?

CJSports · « **Reply #3 on:** November 21, 2012, 10:50:02 AM »

Son of God alone is a great idea because you can use it as a defensive card and can be used for many lost manipulation strategies. NJ gives you a reason not to do that and I think using SoG more strategically could really make the game more interesting and could seperate good players from avergae players. Right now it's essentially first to 3 LS's wins. However the new LS rescue rule did take a step in the right direction for that. I agree with Daniel on this one.

Westok Kiok · « **Reply #4 on:** November 21, 2012, 10:55:42 AM »

I would side with this. Especially when your opponent gets two souls free and you didn't because you weren't lucky enough to draw them. Two points out of five is big.

cookie monster · « **Reply #5 on:** November 21, 2012, 11:09:48 AM »

I do not think we should ban nj. Nj is not as good as people say it is, yes it is pretty helpful. but only if your opponent draws the lost souls to rescue. Which means nj is actually better against speed decks, so it is within your power to make SoG and NJ much less useful just by making a good deck that does not rely on drawing your deck in 4 turns. I think they should make more anti-speed cards. if they do this effectively then nj loses some if it's power. but still keeps games from going on past the time limit.

Red Wing · « **Reply #6 on:** November 21, 2012, 11:16:32 AM »

Banning SoG could make games last too long.

Master KChief · « **Reply #7 on:** November 21, 2012, 11:40:26 AM »

Quote from: Westok Kiok on November 21, 2012, 10:55:42 AM

I would side with this. Especially when your opponent gets two souls free and you didn't because you weren't lucky enough to draw them. Two points out of five is big.

This is a great point. Sog/Nj in Type 1 essentially motivates a player to draw into it as soon as possible. Like you said, its a free 2 points out of 5. That's a huge marginal swing in points that statistically leaves players that tend to not play speedy decks behind and at a disadvantage.

Quote from: Red Wing on November 21, 2012, 11:16:32 AM

Banning SoG could make games last too long.

This is another excellent point, I also had the same reservation about banning the big 2. Question: would banning Sog/NJ and playing to 3 lost souls instead of 5 be a good solution?

Josh · « **Reply #8 on:** November 21, 2012, 12:58:18 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on November 21, 2012, 11:40:26 AM

This is another excellent point, I also had the same reservation about banning the big 2. Question: would banning Sog/NJ and playing to 3 lost souls instead of 5 be a good solution?

I'd rather go to 4 if there is no SoG. But I personally would rather keep SoG, ban NJ, and go to 5.

My bans:
NJ (for the reasons stated by MKC above)
Mayhem (way too much power in one card. the game is so much less stressful when you know your opponent can't have this in their hand - that is my experience from playing some Type Ban games last year. Too much of a card swing, even if it can't be played Turn 1. This card wins games by itself. And let's not forget why it got an errata - because it could never be countered by card counters.)
TGT (although I have one reservation about this - MMoJ can no longer be CBN. Maybe that is a good thing as well, but NT White takes a huge hit with TGT gone. For the sake of the game, I would say it is worth it.)
Isaiah's Call (hear me out on this. I know Isaiah is powerful without his call, but let's face it, Isaiah's role in The Deck is significant because of this card, not because of bulletproof kings or recursion of Isaiah battlewinners. The Deck would be recurring Live Coal anyways. The TC tutoring AND recursion of Isaiah, combined with extensive CBN negation, plus CBN site access, puts this over the top.)
AUTO (D2 plus tutoring of some of the games best heroes, plus AUTO himself can be TC tutored with W3, all CBN.)
Lost Souls (Let's face it, this card is way more effective if your opponent has not played SoG. Even if, with bans and the Dom cap, we reached the point were players might actually choose to leave SoG out of deck, this card gives reason to keep it in. Lost soul manipulation via evil cards is not OP. Lost soul manipulation via a lost soul is. This card is frustrating and is just too different from other lost souls.)
AOCP (this card is the whole reason that protect forts were made. Way too much territory destruction, coupled with a virtually guaranteed soul, all CBN. And the theme it belongs in, Disciples, has a way to make it CBN anyways.)
Thaddeus (the new cards are the ONLY reason Thad is not the most complained about card right now, like he was after Disciples came out. He accomplishes what TGT does (makes battles not happen), but not because the opponent can't block him; he does it because the opponent can't do anything even if he has blocked. The CBI is what does him in.)

Notable cards not banned:
Haman's Plot (in a perfect world, I would. Ripping a card as the cost is lame, because it favors those with the financial means to have multiple copies of the same deck, and who can also afford to permanently lose a good card. I feel almost guilty or embarrassed when I play this card in ROOT. But right now, offenses are light-years ahead of defenses, and Plot is one of the few things that can put a dent in offenses.)
Daniel (maybe banning Daniel and Isaiah's Call would alone be what it takes to bring The Deck down to Tier A. I'm not sure. Daniel is so good because he is a green prophet, not because he is a white Daniel hero; but if the Daniel theme is ever going to be developed, it needs him, because it is so weak.)

Red · « **Reply #9 on:** November 21, 2012, 01:10:55 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on November 21, 2012, 12:58:18 PM

Quote from: Master KChief on November 21, 2012, 11:40:26 AM
This is another excellent point, I also had the same reservation about banning the big 2. Question: would banning Sog/NJ and playing to 3 lost souls instead of 5 be a good solution?

I'd rather go to 4 if there is no SoG. But I personally would rather keep SoG, ban NJ, and go to 5.

My bans:
NJ (for the reasons stated by MKC above)
Mayhem (way too much power in one card. the game is so much less stressful when you know your opponent can't have this in their hand - that is my experience from playing some Type Ban games last year. Too much of a card swing, even if it can't be played Turn 1. This card wins games by itself. And let's not forget why it got an errata - because it could never be countered by card counters.)
TGT (although I have one reservation about this - MMoJ can no longer be CBN. Maybe that is a good thing as well, but NT White takes a huge hit with TGT gone. For the sake of the game, I would say it is worth it.)
Isaiah's Call (hear me out on this. I know Isaiah is powerful without his call, but let's face it, Isaiah's role in The Deck is significant because of this card, not because of bulletproof kings or recursion of Isaiah battlewinners. The Deck would be recurring Live Coal anyways. The TC tutoring AND recursion of Isaiah, combined with extensive CBN negation, plus CBN site access, puts this over the top.)
AUTO (D2 plus tutoring of some of the games best heroes, plus AUTO himself can be TC tutored with W3, all CBN.)
Lost Souls (Let's face it, this card is way more effective if your opponent has not played SoG. Even if, with bans and the Dom cap, we reached the point were players might actually choose to leave SoG out of deck, this card gives reason to keep it in. Lost soul manipulation via evil cards is not OP. Lost soul manipulation via a lost soul is. This card is frustrating and is just too different from other lost souls.)
AOCP (this card is the whole reason that protect forts were made. Way too much territory destruction, coupled with a virtually guaranteed soul, all CBN. And the theme it belongs in, Disciples, has a way to make it CBN anyways.)
Thaddeus (the new cards are the ONLY reason Thad is not the most complained about card right now, like he was after Disciples came out. He accomplishes what TGT does (makes battles not happen), but not because the opponent can't block him; he does it because the opponent can't do anything even if he has blocked. The CBI is what does him in.)

Notable cards not banned:
Haman's Plot (in a perfect world, I would. Ripping a card as the cost is lame, because it favors those with the financial means to have multiple copies of the same deck, and who can also afford to permanently lose a good card. I feel almost guilty or embarrassed when I play this card in ROOT. But right now, offenses are light-years ahead of defenses, and Plot is one of the few things that can put a dent in offenses.)
Daniel (maybe banning Daniel and Isaiah's Call would alone be what it takes to bring The Deck down to Tier A. I'm not sure. Daniel is so good because he is a green prophet, not because he is a white Daniel hero; but if the Daniel theme is ever going to be developed, it needs him, because it is so weak.)

Switch isaiah's call or Thad for Pentecost.

browarod · « **Reply #10 on:** November 21, 2012, 01:13:46 PM »

You could do what Yu-Gi-Oh! did and ban every card that draws more than 1 without having a drawback/cost.

Kidding aside, banning SoG and/or NJ won't solve the underlying speed issue. A race to 3 is still a race to 3 with or without the Big Two. Most of the time people are racing to their CBN battle winners and just collecting Soggy Waffles along the way.

As for TGT, I've seen it used far more as a passive Fort to make Mary's band CBN than to actually pre-block ignore. Print a Dominant that can negate and/or destroy a Fortress and we're good to go on the TGT front.

Quote from: jmhartz on November 21, 2012, 12:58:18 PM

Mayhem (way too much power in one card. the game is so much less stressful when you know your opponent can't have this in their hand - that is my experience from playing some Type Ban games last year. Too much of a card swing, even if it can't be played Turn 1. This card wins games by itself. And let's not forget why it got an errata - because it could never be countered by card counters.)
Isaiah's Call (hear me out on this. I know Isaiah is powerful without his call, but let's face it, Isaiah's role in The Deck is significant because of this card, not because of bulletproof kings or recursion of Isaiah battlewinners. The Deck would be recurring Live Coal anyways. The TC tutoring AND recursion of Isaiah, combined with extensive CBN negation, plus CBN site access, puts this over the top.)
AUTO (D2 plus tutoring of some of the games best heroes, plus AUTO himself can be TC tutored with W3, all CBN.)
Lost Souls (Let's face it, this card is way more effective if your opponent has not played SoG. Even if, with bans and the Dom cap, we reached the point were players might actually choose to leave SoG out of deck, this card gives reason to keep it in. Lost soul manipulation via evil cards is not OP. Lost soul manipulation via a lost soul is. This card is frustrating and is just too different from other lost souls.)
AOCP (this card is the whole reason that protect forts were made. Way too much territory destruction, coupled with a virtually guaranteed soul, all CBN. And the theme it belongs in, Disciples, has a way to make it CBN anyways.)
Thaddeus (the new cards are the ONLY reason Thad is not the most complained about card right now, like he was after Disciples came out. He accomplishes what TGT does (makes battles not happen), but not because the opponent can't block him; he does it because the opponent can't do anything even if he has blocked. The CBI is what does him in.)

Mayhem is not what everyone cracks it up to be, especially after the errata. If you build your deck properly you should have no trouble with this card.

Isaiah's call? Really? First of all, Call is NOT CBN. You cannot negate the place after the phase, but the ability itself is perfectly negateable. Second, it's what gives prophet decks their oomph now. I am a personal fan of prophet decks so I'd hate to see them nerfed so hardcore.

I would agree with AUtO. Ugh, I hate that guy.

Lost Souls is one of the most strategic cards in Type 1. I really don't think it's anywhere close to OP. It adds another element to the battle resolution phase: Do you give them an actual soul, or half the doubler? Are they at 2 and is it likely they have SoG/NJ in hand? Stuff like that.

I've played a Disciples deck since Disciples came out and I can say that I've used AoCP far more for to destroy the 1 or 2 ECs in battle and get a soul, rarely have I actually destroyed a territory (except for my own on occasion) with it. If Disciples can make AoC regular CBN anyway, why bother banning the already CBN one?

Thaddeus, like Mayhem, is not the big baddie everyone thinks he is. I've rarely actually gotten to protect from an opponent's entire defense even when I build a deck around Thad (Crown of Thorns, all the Disciples, etc.). He's in my Disciples deck only because he helps with some of the lower-numbered auto-block-type ECs.

Red · « **Reply #11 on:** November 21, 2012, 01:21:41 PM »

Browarod, Mayhem is still broken. You can't build a deck to counter it. That's impossible.

JSB23 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 21, 2012, 01:36:10 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on November 21, 2012, 12:58:18 PM

Mayhem (way too much power in one card. the game is so much less stressful when you know your opponent can't have this in their hand - that is my experience from playing some Type Ban games last year. Too much of a card swing, even if it can't be played Turn 1. This card wins games by itself. And let's not forget why it got an errata - because it could never be countered by card counters.)

This card also loses games by itself. Mayhem is just that, mayhem, it's completely random. There's a chance of getting a card you need, or there's a chance of drawing all souls and stuff you don't want. Same thing for your opponent, you could be getting rid of their SoG, or you could be giving it to them.

Quote from: Red on November 21, 2012, 01:21:41 PM

Browarod, Mayhem is still broken. You can't build a deck to counter it. That's impossible.

1. Mayhem isn't broken, it can help or hurt both players.
2. The Deck says otherwise...

Quote from: jmhartz on November 21, 2012, 12:58:18 PM

Isaiah's Call (hear me out on this. I know Isaiah is powerful without his call, but let's face it, Isaiah's role in The Deck is significant because of this card, not because of bulletproof kings or recursion of Isaiah battlewinners. The Deck would be recurring Live Coal anyways. The TC tutoring AND recursion of Isaiah, combined with extensive CBN negation, plus CBN site access, puts this over the top.)

Disagree. Isaiah's Call is powerful because the current meta favors splash-character based defenses, against a real defense it is still a powerful card, but not an overpowering one.

If you want to stop The Deck, change the meta so that it no longer favors splash decks.

Cards to Ban (in addition to those already mentioned):

Pentecost: The ultimate speed card. You get to start your turn with 3 extra cards, at next to no cost. Darius's Decree does stop it, but you need to have it when they play Pentecost, and you have to hope they don't play Serpent, New Covenant, I am Healing, or one of the other Heal Alls. After doing that you've lost your artifact slot for a turn which, more often than not, will mean a rescue for your opponent.

All Draw Three Characters: These guys are a cancer upon this game. Change their abilities to read "Draw up to X, then discard 2X/3 (rounded down) off the top of your deck, lost souls go in play." With this change, you can use your draw 3 every turn, but then you have a chance of discarding your doms.

Master KChief · « **Reply #13 on:** November 21, 2012, 02:14:14 PM »

Quote from: browarod on November 21, 2012, 01:13:46 PM

Kidding aside, banning SoG and/or NJ won't solve the underlying speed issue. A race to 3 is still a race to 3 with or without the Big Two. Most of the time people are racing to their CBN battle winners and just collecting Soggy Waffles along the way.

Son of God/New Jerusalem will always favor the player that draws it first, so of course the other player that did not draw it quickly enough will be at a disadvantage. Whereas if no freebies were in the game, everyone would be on the same exact ground to get to 3, instead of 3 and racing to Sog/NJ before the other player does.

Quote

As for TGT, I've seen it used far more as a passive Fort to make Mary's band CBN than to actually pre-block ignore. Print a Dominant that can negate and/or destroy a Fortress and we're good to go on the TGT front.

I'm a bit skeptical of the CBN banding on The Garden Tomb being utilized more than the free walk-in. People don't build the deck around the CBN banding portion, they build it around the ignore focusing on mass territory destruction. I do agree with the anti-fort (and possibly anti-site) Dominant...something as easily accessible and playable as that would be worth running as a viable counter.

Quote

Mayhem is not what everyone cracks it up to be, especially after the errata. If you build your deck properly you should have no trouble with this card.

What do you mean when you say building your deck properly? Outside the auto-inclusion of Nazareth, I'm not sure there's anyway to properly accomplish such a thing outside of Hero/EC mash...

I do believe Mayhem is still a fairly problematic card, even with the new rule affecting it. The new rule only brought it down from an uberly broken level to one that is tolerable in the first round but still widely unchecked afterwards. People do tend to drop more down in territory nowadays than ever before just because of this card, but my qualms with the card are the plusses and negging this card has the potential to easily create. I've thought long and hard about this card since it's inception, and have ultimately come to the conclusion that something must not be right with the card when you can substitute any number possible instead of the 6 and the card would still not be balanced in any way.

Quote

Thaddeus, like Mayhem, is not the big baddie everyone thinks he is. I've rarely actually gotten to protect from an opponent's entire defense even when I build a deck around Thad (Crown of Thorns, all the Disciples, etc.). He's in my Disciples deck only because he helps with some of the lower-numbered auto-block-type ECs.

I don't like Thaddeus because of all of the unchecked absolutes he creates. He protects from this this this this and this...and there's barely a thing you can do to stop it. That doesn't encourage a healthy battle phase, that doesn't encourage an actual back and forth in gameplay. As someone mentioned earlier, the only reason he has fallen to the wayside is because of all the new toys people are playing with from the new set. But I still think he is a card that should be closely watched.

I am in concurrence with cutting some of the most powerful drawing cards out of the game. Pentecost is one of the best, if not the best, speed enabler in the game. Optional free D3 in an already powerful color with its only risk being a Darius Decree.

The Angel Under the Oak should be looked at, just for the fact of the incredible amount of synergy and plays it has within the Fierce Five. And oh yeah, that continuous D2 every turn is pretty amazing as well.

JSB, I like where you're going with the drawing Heroes. Although, I may suggest something along the lines of 'Draw X, then discard X-1 cards'. I just feel discarding off the top of deck is actually an empty cost to most and won't detriment the speed player much at all in terms of current hand advantage. 'Draw X, discard X-1' can possibly help mitigate the obscene unchecked plusses those kind of Heroes create.

New Raven BR · « **Reply #14 on:** November 21, 2012, 02:42:51 PM »

if God intended for cards to be banned, he wouldnt have given inspiration for the cards to rob. and honestly i wouldnt think God would be happy if there was cards in his game. i would think if there should be banned cards it should be the ones without special abilities cause hardly anybody uses em

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #15 on:** November 21, 2012, 02:44:50 PM »

JSB, I've lost 2 games with The Deck recently due to early Mayhems and getting screwed. It may be totally random, but that's not okay, that's the problem. It increases the luck in the game significantly. You can empty your hand and come out +9 over your opponent pretty easily.

That said, I'm not totally sold on banning Mayhem. It has counters and it can't be played first turn. The problem is the existence of the card forces people to lay down characters if they don't want to get totally screwed, and then your opponent can proceed to wreck you with your own offense.

I'm not totally sold on banning TGT. It really wouldn't be a big problem if people actually use defense. Pale Green can handle it fairly well. Holy Grail would be a good one to ban while still keeping TGT a theme. Other than that people just need to use defense. It's their own fault if they can't block with Uzzah.

AutO is pretty bannable. He's just too versatile.

Isaiah's Call isn't as bannable. Once you take out AutO, you still have a solid prophets deck, but I don't think Call is that crucial. Isaiah will be really powerful after all the banning of cards, so you could nuke it by banning call if necessary.

NJ is bannable, but remember that games often time out anyway, even with two speed decks. If we ban NJ we'll see a ton more time outs or have to increase the time limit.

Thaddeus I'd be pretty up for banning, but not for T1.

Quote from: New Raven BR on November 21, 2012, 02:42:51 PM

if God intended for cards to be banned, he wouldnt have given inspiration for the cards to rob. and honestly i wouldnt think God would be happy if there was cards in his game. i would think if there should be banned cards it should be the ones without special abilities cause hardly anybody uses em

AFAIK, the only card with divine inspiration was SWS.

cookie monster · « **Reply #16 on:** November 21, 2012, 02:47:46 PM »

I am personally opposed to banning any cards! If we start to ban cards then where do we draw the line? After we ban these cards then another meta will come and destroy all of the newly weak metas and we will just ban more cards! If you were t ban all of these cards I think you would find it would make the game more complicated for new players (Trying to remember which cards were banned) and it will make buying new cards a pain. Just think of it, you buy a disciples pack and half of the cards in the pack are banned!?!? now what happened to your great idea? or in booster draft, you are handed a tin pack but you can only use 6 of the cards, the rest of the cards are banned! Why not just make more cards that bring up new metas? We all know they will make a card or 3 (or 20-ish as with packs like RoA2 and Foof2) but you can't possibly make a deck with all of the "OP" cards in it and expect it to win!
You just try to build a deck with all of the cards you want to have banned, it will be impossible!

Red · « **Reply #17 on:** November 21, 2012, 02:52:13 PM »

Quote from: cookie monster on November 21, 2012, 02:47:46 PM

but you can't possibly make a deck with all of the "OP" cards in it and expect it to win!

Highly debatable.

Master KChief · « **Reply #18 on:** November 21, 2012, 02:55:34 PM »

Cookie, this thread isn't really about the pro's or con's or the implications banning will have upon the game. There will always be people for it, there will always be people against it, there will be people sitting on the fence about it, we've rehashed and had this same dance years in and years out. Not everyone can be satisfied. But this thread is primarily for the people that already believe that banning/restricting some cards can produce a balanced meta, and the observations and constructive assertions they can make towards that idea.

Westy, why does Pale Green have a favorable matchup against TGT?

CJSports · « **Reply #19 on:** November 21, 2012, 03:31:33 PM »

I believe that the only card really worth banning atm is NJ.

Just some food for thought. At the most recent tournament I went to. I played "The Deck" to see what the hype was all about and I copied one of the national decks and I played about 3 fun games. They were all against balanced to defense heavy decks and I lost every single one. Right now The Deck simply counters itself (If that makes sense) and other speed decks. If people just started playing with defense we would not have the problem with all these cards.

FIXED: Typo making my opinion look opposite what I meant.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #20 on:** November 21, 2012, 03:48:26 PM »

Quote from: CJSports on November 21, 2012, 03:31:33 PM

I believe that the only card really worth banning atm is NJ.

Just some food for thought. At the most recent tournament I went to. I played "The Deck" to see what the hype was all about and I copied one of the national decks and I played about 3 fun games. They were all against balanced to defense heavy decks and I lost every single one. Right now The Deck simply counters itself (If that makes sense) and other speed decks. If people just started playing with defense we would have the problem with all these cards.

That's not entirely true, but I'll let you realize that on your own.

browarod · « **Reply #21 on:** November 21, 2012, 04:07:21 PM »

When I say build your deck properly I mean to say that, barring the rare occurrence of a hand of 6 of the same card type, you minimize the impact something like Mayhem has on you. I've had Mayhem dropped on me dozens of times, but I never worry. Sure, I may lose a couple cards if my hand was over 6, but I build my deck in a way that it doesn't rely only on a few cards so that if I lose them due to Mayhem, or whatever else, it doesn't mess me up to the point of being unable to win. Mayhem is laughable if you take the time to consider it, and similar things, when building your deck.

@MKC - Maybe it's just me and my area's meta, but I've never built a TGT deck solely with a territory destruction. I favor Gardenciples, actually, for the multiple ways of winning battles. The ignore is just bonus if I happen to be in a situation where it is useful.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #22 on:** November 21, 2012, 04:45:40 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on November 21, 2012, 02:55:34 PM

Westy, why does Pale Green have a favorable matchup against TGT?

Assyrian Camp

ASA
Assyrian Survivor
Assyrian Archer
Egyptian Magicians
Damsel

Forgotten History
Death of Unrighteous
Achan's Sin
That one Interrupt from Disciples
Invoking Terror
2KHorses

Charms

A simple 13 card defense that will discard TGT and win a load of battles. All you really need to do is sidestep He is Risen! but there are 3 interrupts for that. You'll get to block most of the time because your characters are safe (between Charms and Camp).

Quote from: browarod on November 21, 2012, 04:07:21 PM

Sure, I may lose a couple cards if my hand was over 6.

This is the main issue. Let's suppose you ended your turn with 6 cards (which is pretty average). They go and get down to 3. You draw 3 and then they drop Mayhem. They now have a +7 card advantage on you, and they get the next draw phase.

browarod · « **Reply #23 on:** November 21, 2012, 04:51:00 PM »

I honestly don't agree with people's calculations of "card advantage" since it's so relative. It could include Lost Souls, it could include characters they don't need, it could include artifacts. Just because you draw doesn't mean you're better off than me. It all comes down to WHAT you draw.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #24 on:** November 21, 2012, 05:31:56 PM »

Well of course it does, but their odds are that much better. If you started the game drawing only 5 cards and they drew 12 (a +7 card advantage) who do you think would have the better hand? Could be you, but it's far more likely to be the person that drew more.

Of course, you might not have drawn souls, but don't read too much into the analogy. When you play Mayhem you're drawing the same amount for an equal chance at lost souls, one person just gets a clear card advantage. Plus it's already gotten into the game (at least after the first turn) so it's more likely there will already be souls out or they'll have soul generation.

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Author Topic: Banlist Brainstorming (Read 15556 times)

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