Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote from Land of Redemption June 22nd 2016,

"If you missed the announcement on Redemption CCG’s Facebook page last week, and Justin’s video from yesterday, there will be an all new version of Cloud of Witnesses only available at Nationals!"

Quote from Land of Redemption March 8th 2017,

"Special edition Revelation of John card boxes will be sold by Cactus Game Design. These are only available at the National tournament!"

Quote from the Cactus Game Design Message Boards August 12th 2017,

"For a limited time, I am going to make the alternate border cards of both CoW and RoJ available for sale at the Cactus website."

This is nothing less than a major disappointment to everyone who invested time, money, and resources in being able to attend nationals both this and last year to purchase AB cards. Now, let me explain.

Many people, myself included, planned on attending and purchasing cards at nationals this year based on how the cards were received last year and the potential to invest in a special limited release that had a higher expected value then the regular release. Part of this equation was the fact that there were people who weren't able to attend nationals that would want AB cards, this ensured that there would be a strong secondary market.

Following this announcement, not only have the cards been significantly devalued because of an unexpected increase in supply, but the secondary market for the people who purchased cards at nationals is practically nonexistent because of the ensuing wide spread availability.

Do you want to know why the AB cards sold out so fast at nationals both years? Because they were perceived to have higher value due to a one time release and limited availability.

If this becomes the norm, there is no reason for someone to go out of their way to attend nationals just to purchase AB cards. Even if this never happens again it is setting the precedent that what was promised, that AB cards would only be available at nationals, is meaningless and, as a result, we can't trust any future promises about exclusivity or limited releases.

At the end of the day nobody really "needs" AB cards. We as players and collectors "want" them. By putting the collectible value of AB cards on the table I, as a collector, will be extremely weary of "investing" in future "limited releases". As a player, I find it frustrating that I was basically forced to buy "regular" RoJ cards just to be competitive leading up to nationals. If I knew that this was going to happen I would have held off on buying so much up front and waited till I knew I could get as many AB cards as I wanted, after having seen where the market would go.

If upholding the collectability of a product means nothing, then why not just have the regular release of the next set be "AB" instead of having two different releases? It doesn't make sense to me that if I wait till nationals I can pay the same per pack that I did at the beginning of the season and get cards that are functionally identical, but also significantly more valuable.

This may seem like an overreaction, but this is a slippery slope that is virtually impossible to come back from.

I'm sorry if any of you take what I've said personally, but I am very disappointed with this turn of events. The last thing I want to be is contentious, but sometimes being honest can sound harsh. All I want is what's best for Redemption and it's community and it's my opinion that this is bad for the player because they are forced to buy inferior product to be competitive, it's bad for the collectors because value is determined by supply instead of demand, and it's bad for Cactus as a company because they are sacrificing long term credibility for the sake of short term convenience.

I am not affected financially as others are but I do dislike this decision because regardless of anyone's opinion on whether it should have happened or not, it will directly result in less people coming to Nationals if this is planned to be repeated for future sets. It's undoubtedly a good business decision since there is certainly demand for AB packs from people who would not have been able to make it Nats either way but it is a little disappointing for me to see a business decision made that negatively impacts the tournament scene. I of course have no way of knowing the sales stats and such but given the overwhelming success of the normal print of RoJ I wouldn't have thought this kind of action would be necessary.

The point in the main post I agree with the most is that if the AB packs are losing their uniqueness, then all cards should just be innately "AB" so competitive players aren't forced to buy the plain cards in order to be able to use them leading up to Nationals.

I appreciate your thoughts on this Noah (and Josiah, Terry, Chris).
Sincerely, I was trying to do something nice for the community.  It is certainly more work on our end to offer these cards a second time.  My sense was that demand outweighed supply for these cards and I was trying to make them available for limited time just this once.  I would not repeat the offer for either CoW or RoJ again. 
I could:
a)   abandon the entire idea.
b)   move forward but, limit order size to one display box per customer.
c)   Set no limit but increase the price to say $6.00 per pack and with no extra discount per display.   IE. people that came to nationals bought their packs at $4.00 and people buying during the two week window would pay 1/3 more.

Any of the above may affect people that sold cards in the last few days.  But, that’s water under the bridge. 
Because I discussed the idea with a number of people at Nationals, I was conflicted in that some people wanting to sell their cards knew it was a strong possibility and others did not know.  That felt like ‘insider trading.’  This is why I made the announcement sooner rather than later.
In any case, I am listening to the fan base and trying to find a solution that will work better for most of you. 
Thoughts?

Thanks for the response. The main bit of information I would like to know is if the sale of AB packs outside of Nationals will become regular practice for future sets or if this is a one time event caused by the immense demand. I know you clarified this is a one time event for CoW and RoJ but I haven't heard what the plans are for future Redemption sets.

Following this announcement, not only have the cards been significantly devalued because of an unexpected increase in supply, but the secondary market for the people who purchased cards at nationals is practically nonexistent because of the ensuing wide spread availability.

Honestly, I think there's still a secondary market for singles. I know of just two people who sold complete (or near-complete) sets and I think they were to the same person. I could be wrong, but I think there just isn't a huge market for complete sets because that's a huge chunk of change to drop all at one time. I went to Nationals, bought 29 packs, but had definitely hoped to buy another full box. Though I'm not really a collector, I'm still trying to piece together a full set by buying singles since I have most of a complete set--but I'm not going to buy an entire full set.

With the success of the AB cards and the visual aid of Gabe's borderless deck in '16 why are we not just producing the "AB" cards?

Isn't there something else we could give to people who go to nationals as an incentive (you know besides the fun, fellowship, winner's promos, and the chance to win the point total for the year)?

It doesn't seem to make much sense to me to continue to produce "regular" versions of the cards when the AB versions are agreed to be VASTLY superior.

Wouldn't it make sense to just begin producing all of the sets as if they were AB sets? The AB version is a much better product. Everyone did such a great job with them! Why not just make that the standard?

I appreciate your thoughts on this Noah (and Josiah, Terry, Chris).
Sincerely, I was trying to do something nice for the community.  It is certainly more work on our end to offer these cards a second time.  My sense was that demand outweighed supply for these cards and I was trying to make them available for limited time just this once.  I would not repeat the offer for either CoW or RoJ again. 
I could:
a)   abandon the entire idea.
b)   move forward but, limit order size to one display box per customer.
c)   Set no limit but increase the price to say $6.00 per pack and with no extra discount per display.   IE. people that came to nationals bought their packs at $4.00 and people buying during the two week window would pay 1/3 more.

Any of the above may affect people that sold cards in the last few days.  But, that’s water under the bridge. 
Because I discussed the idea with a number of people at Nationals, I was conflicted in that some people wanting to sell their cards knew it was a strong possibility and others did not know.  That felt like ‘insider trading.’  This is why I made the announcement sooner rather than later.
In any case, I am listening to the fan base and trying to find a solution that will work better for most of you. 
Thoughts?

In the end I see the value on both sides. 

At this point I don't know if there is a more moral solution then another. 
I guess the fairest thing IMO would be to charge 6.00 dollars a pack for the AB cards. That helps them hold value and still allows players who couldn't/didn't attend nats to have access. 

That said I know that may hurt sales for Cactus and I would prefer to see the Mothership of Redemption soaring not putting along. The best thing for Cactus is in turn the best thing for Redemption.

Honestly it got sticky.
As a player who probably ate it as hard as anyone financially. (Buying for resale, selling discounted to recoup at least something after the announcement)
- I would choose to put others collectors, Cactus and the redemption community before myself. I think selling the cards at 5.00 per pack and 96.00 per display box is the right choice at this point. In the future we really need to have a foreknowledge of all potential/actual availability before people make any purchases.

Thanks for hearing the community Rob. Thanks for your leadership, thank you for Redemption.

What if  . . .
A secondary release of the previous year(s)' AB cards were released prior to Christmas? So this year just additional AB CoW cards would be available. Next Christmas CoW AB and RoJ AB would be made available on a buy to print scale  and continue this trend.

This still provides incentive for nats attendees but will also give none attendees a chance get in on the action later on down the road?

If something like this became the standard then everyone would know what and when AB cards will be available.

Quote from: jbeers285 on August 14, 2017, 04:05:37 PM

What if  . . .
A secondary release of the previous year(s)' AB cards were released prior to Christmas? So this year just additional AB CoW cards would be available. Next Christmas CoW AB and RoJ AB would be made available on a buy to print scale  and continue this trend.

This still provides incentive for nats attendees but will also give none attendees a chance get in on the action later on down the road?

I think this could be a great compromise (depending on Rob's feelings)!  This would allow over a year for the AB market to have its place, and still give people who couldn't make Nationals (or willing to wait) a chance to get the cards too!  It also allows for collectors to try to complete more than one set (eventually).

 

Of the options Rob presented, I lean towards B.

I could also get behind Josiah's idea of doing CoW AB this year and RoJ AB next year.

I think Josiah's idea is the best one.

I know this might not be possible but it would be nice to just have the chance to get an AB card in a normal box

I vote for option B

I added a poll to the top to help Rob gage the feedback on the 3 options he gave.