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The cards that have come out would make that ridiculous. Luke would become S tier for instance, so would evil gold. Losing because of decking out is too extreme.

Once again, I disagree.

Its a strategy.

Obviously, if everyone is playing luke and making the opponent deck out get too OP, then do something about it. But still, there can even be cards made in the future that can help against it. For intance, make an artifact that makes it that no opponent can make you draw cards or something...

We can't be afraid to make rules because there, and i stress this, MIGHT be a strategy that could be used because of the rules change to make the rule change. Speed needs to be dealt with. This is literally the only way i see of making people not want to deck out.

I would much rather have to deal with that than Speed. Please, give me my cards, help me get to SoG quicker. More than welcome to.

Luke would become S tier for instance, so would evil gold. Losing because of decking out is too extreme.

I agree that losing because of decking out is too extreme.  However, I don't get it when people say that Luke/Egyptians would become S-tier.

Luke is a lame offense, and Egyptians are a lame defense other than being fast.  The combination of the two is a recipe for disaster.  Sure you could make me deck out if the game lasted long enough.  But I'll break through your defense 5 times before that happens.  And your offense won't be going anywhere.

"A hero may not start a rescue attempt unless he/she was in play at the end of the owner's previous turn."

But if heroes had to wait a turn before attacking, then wouldn't that make people want to speed up even more to get their heroes out faster, so that they could attack the next turn?

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 28, 2011, 05:27:59 PM

Luke would become S tier for instance, so would evil gold. Losing because of decking out is too extreme.

I agree that losing because of decking out is too extreme.  However, I don't get it when people say that Luke/Egyptians would become S-tier.

Luke is a lame offense, and Egyptians are a lame defense other than being fast.  The combination of the two is a recipe for disaster.  Sure you could make me deck out if the game lasted long enough.  But I'll break through your defense 5 times before that happens.  And your offense won't be going anywhere.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 28, 2011, 05:31:29 PM

"A hero may not start a rescue attempt unless he/she was in play at the end of the owner's previous turn."

But if heroes had to wait a turn before attacking, then wouldn't that make people want to speed up even more to get their heroes out faster, so that they could attack the next turn?

If you want to speed through your deck, go for it. But, you also have to drop your hand. I don't know about you, but I hardly ever want to drop my hand. I want to play close to the cuff. Also, if I run with a standard split (about a 1:1 ratio on enhancement/character) I often will have to discard enhancements due to speeding. I could also suffer from free rescues because if I speed through my deck, I probably don't have much defense, so I can't really block, but I keep bringing my souls out. If I need to get one specific hero (say, Joseph in Genesis deck), I still have to wait a turn to use him to RA allowing the other player another turn to change the tide (and be able to do something about Joseph, since I have to sit him in my territory).

The issue with the "Gifts of the Magi" rule is that is that it reduces the game to who gets their best cards first.

This is exactly what would happen if there were no drawing special abilities in the first place.

Making the game faster in anyway is NOT the answer to the problem.

It is if the game becomes more balanced between metas.  Who cares how fast a game is if there's balance?

I'm just spit-balling here, but what about a lower hand limit? Say, 12. And, instead of just not drawing, any cards you draw over 12 get discarded?

This idea has some merit.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 28, 2011, 05:31:29 PM

The issue with the "Gifts of the Magi" rule is that is that it reduces the game to who gets their best cards first.

This is exactly what would happen if there were no drawing special abilities in the first place.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 28, 2011, 05:31:29 PM

Making the game faster in anyway is NOT the answer to the problem.

It is if the game becomes more balanced between metas.  Who cares how fast a game is if there's balance?

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 28, 2011, 05:44:58 PM

I'm just spit-balling here, but what about a lower hand limit? Say, 12. And, instead of just not drawing, any cards you draw over 12 get discarded?

This idea has some merit.

Everyone cares about how fast the meta is. If you notice, no one calls for balance via ruling, they call for nerfing speed via ruling. They don't want to deal with balance until later.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 28, 2011, 05:43:02 PM

If I need to get one specific hero (say, Joseph in Genesis deck)

That brings up an important question.  If I have Rachael out for a turn and then rescue with her to switch for Joseph in my deck or discard pile, then what happens.  I now have a hero in battle who has NOT been in play for a turn?  Does that change it into a battle challenge, or does it stay a rescue attempt, since he's taking the place of Rachael who was out for a turn?

That's why I made the edit (I think I edited it) that the hero who starts the battle must have been in play at the end of your last turn. It would still allow the above scenario to be an RA since Rachel started the battle.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 28, 2011, 05:54:55 PM

Everyone cares about how fast the meta is. If you notice, no one calls for balance via ruling, they call for nerfing speed via ruling. They don't want to deal with balance until later.

Well I'M calling for nerfing speed via ruling BECAUSE it is out of balance.  It may be implicit, but I'm calling for balance nonetheless.

The general assumption is that, if speed gets nerfed, more people will play defense.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 28, 2011, 05:54:55 PM

Everyone cares about how fast the meta is. If you notice, no one calls for balance via ruling, they call for nerfing speed via ruling. They don't want to deal with balance until later.

Well I'M calling for nerfing speed via ruling BECAUSE it is out of balance.  It may be implicit, but I'm calling for balance nonetheless.

You want to nerf speed by letting every deck be speed. That doesn't make sense. I don't care what you are drawing, as long as I end up drawing one card more.

Cant we all just agree not to play speed?

Cant we all just agree not to play speed?

Even if you could convince everyone to not play speed (not happening), it would be much more difficult to define speed.  Are we not allowed to use draw abilities?  What about search?  The big problem would be defining speed.

How is a Gifts of the Magi rule not making every deck speed?

This would be the OPPOSITE of making every deck speed.  I could build a deck without a single draw card, and my deck would still be just as fast as my fastest opponent.  All of their draw cards would work for both of us, and all of my cards would only work for me.  Effectively playing against a speed deck would give me a card advantage overall in my deck.

I like this more and more

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 28, 2011, 07:37:37 PM

How is a Gifts of the Magi rule not making every deck speed?

This would be the OPPOSITE of making every deck speed.  I could build a deck without a single draw card, and my deck would still be just as fast as my fastest opponent.  All of their draw cards would work for both of us, and all of my cards would only work for me.  Effectively playing against a speed deck would give me a card advantage overall in my deck.

I like this more and more

The result is speeding through your deck, I think that is what he means.

Are you calling me (switches tab to check Facebook) some kid who can't (skips song on Pandora) fo(cat jumps on lap)cus?

Alex, I truly appreciate your input.  Please don't stop.  It helps this whole discussion to weed out ideas that have some potential versus ones that would otherwise open Pandora's box (only contains ominous music, Kittens ).

Would a rule that balances the drawing kill speed completely?  It might.  Some would like this and some would not.  I've never thought of speed as a separate meta anyway.  You can't win a game with just speed cards.  All "speed" decks have the minimum amount of "power" cards that will enable the player to win.  Speed is simply adding the cards that help you get the power cards more quickly than your opponent.  A rule that mimics Gifts of the Magi would generally cause more players to use searches and exchanges rather than draw.  Some players would continue to add the ITB+D3+play next cards but start declining the draw part, using only the ITB+play next part.

As to your point regarding the lack of power checks balancing the importance of characters in the game, I feel that no matter how well the game is balanced with ALL types of cards, players will still add more speed cards to their decks to gain the upper hand.

Finally, I think I have seen enough backlash regarding speed decks that most players do not prefer that speed be the best option in the game, as proposed by you.  I think most players succumb to the decision to making their decks faster to be competitive.  If there was a balance in drawing I think deck-building would be easier and more creative.  Players wouldn't have to decide to take out quality cards from their deck to be replaced with speed cards in order to be 50, 56 or 63 cards.  Shoot, some speed cards have become staples in most metas.  Personally, I dislike the fact that a 50-card deck will have 20-30% speed cards in addition to the 20% dominants.  To me, THAT'S boring.