Cactus Game Design Message Boards

We need to stop trying to get rid of the symptoms (speed) and deal with the root cause (importance of characters to Redemption in combo with a lack of power check). Until that's dealt with, Speed will always be the best option. Once it's dealt with, it will still be good, but it won't be the clear best.

That's circular logic though, which has been discussed. Without making a drastic change to the rules, the only way to slow down speed decks is to print anti-speed cards. Well how can I ensure I'm going to get that anti-speed card before my opponent sets up? Well, I'd better just throw in Pentecost just to be safe. There needs to be a penalty for decking out.

Quote from: STAMP on December 29, 2011, 11:22:39 AM

Would a rule that balances the drawing kill speed completely?  It might.  Some would like this and some would not.  I've never thought of speed as a separate meta anyway.  You can't win a game with just speed cards.  All "speed" decks have the minimum amount of "power" cards that will enable the player to win.  Speed is simply adding the cards that help you get the power cards more quickly than your opponent.  A rule that mimics Gifts of the Magi would generally cause more players to use searches and exchanges rather than draw.  Some players would continue to add the ITB+D3+play next cards but start declining the draw part, using only the ITB+play next part.

I agree with this sentiment overall, but it's also another reason I don't like the GOTM rule. Speed would attack to become Genesis. Some people would continue to use heavy drawing. You could also use CtB to force your opponent to draw past 10 (Sabbath Breaker or Damsel come to mind) so you can draw. I just don't think allow more speed options would fix speed.

Quote

As to your point regarding the lack of power checks balancing the importance of characters in the game, I feel that no matter how well the game is balanced with ALL types of cards, players will still add more speed cards to their decks to gain the upper hand.

I agree, which is why we need to power check the cards that they get with that speed so that drawing isn't so inherently powerful.

Quote

Finally, I think I have seen enough backlash regarding speed decks that most players do not prefer that speed be the best option in the game, as proposed by you.  I think most players succumb to the decision to making their decks faster to be competitive.  If there was a balance in drawing I think deck-building would be easier and more creative.  Players wouldn't have to decide to take out quality cards from their deck to be replaced with speed cards in order to be 50, 56 or 63 cards.  Shoot, some speed cards have become staples in most metas.  Personally, I dislike the fact that a 50-card deck will have 20-30% speed cards in addition to the 20% dominants.  To me, THAT'S boring.

I didn't say we wanted speed to be the best option, I just said it was. I agree that most mid-tier players who play speed don't care for speed, but they just want to win. I think the top-tier players have some responsability in the current speed surge because it's all we play. With Maly being largely not around in recent years online, all the top contributing players nationally for the most part play speed, so it's no wonder that lots of average to good players play speed.

I don't want deck-building to be easier. I want deck-building to be harder. Deck-building should be painful when you cut the final few cards because you think that all of them have a case to be in your deck. I don't want deck-building to be so easy a caveman could do it.

I don't think speed decks have 20%-30% cards either. That'd be 10-15 cards. That's wildly high, and largely depends on how you define speed. Is Susanna a speed card? What about Reach or Words? I personally would only call speed cards those cards that only provide drawing (like Pentecost or First Fruits). Reach and Words will always be used because they are good cards without the draw. The draw just pushes them over the top. I'd prefer to reach a world were using stuff like Pentecost and First Fruits has more of a cost and makes the user think more (which, again, selfless promotion, I think my rule proposal would).

I don't know about you, but as a general rule, I agonize over which cards go into my speed deck just the same as you do with a balanced deck. My TGT deck last year had about 4 cards on a list that I really, really wanted to fit in, but simply couldn't. This year that list has grown to about 7 for the TGT deck, and I have a secondary speed deck with a list as long as I am tall, I'm actually so up in the air with that deck that what I play from week to week in it changes since every card makes an argument for a spot.

It's extremely easy to build a speed deck - I won't argue that. I would argue that its extremely hard to build a speed deck that beats other speed decks consistently, as well as beating everything else

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 29, 2011, 12:07:16 PM

I agree, which is why we need to power check the cards that they get with that speed so that drawing isn't so inherently powerful.

Here's the problem with your logic.  The problem isn't that characters are powerful.  If they weren't then something else would be.  And if nothing was, then all the cards would stink, and no one would play the game.

So the solution isn't to nerf all the characters or all the cards, but just to slow down how fast people get to those powerful cards.

I agree. The best to stop speed (though it would take a while) would be to simply not print cards with draw abilities. That said though, since the next set is a couple starter decks, there will undoubtedly be draw abilities.

I remember when it 1st came out with the blue packs and the game seemed more like MTG (which I was more familiar with at the time) with those 1st deckbuilding rules. I remember getting mailed a letter with extra rule changes and those "new" deckbuilding changes were noted. I believe I got it mailed to me from Cactus since I was bombarding Cactus with mail from members of my family in order to get more promos (like burial....which was a real gamechanger in those days!!  ).
Of course I could be wrong...my wife tells me about things I forget all the time...but was that on purpose?!?! 
Maybe another "oldie" can remember this too so I don't think I'm completely losing it??! 

What I've always wondered is why speed is a bad thing anyways.

(Why speed is a problem)