Cactus Game Design Message Boards

In our game I could've sworn he was a 12/12... unless I've crossed over into a parallel universe...

Just kind of disappointing to see such a weak ability on such a prominent character of Revelation. Even adding CBN and draw 1 from the bottom would make him golden in my book.

the early church version is 6/6 and the unlimited version is 8/12

Can't slip a territory class symbol in there? Pretty please 

I'd like to comment on this as well - You specifically say that you're still thinking about playing him because of his Colors/Identifiers - This is one of the things that we feel makes him so good - He's match-up nightmare for FBTN, he can play Divination. These are two pretty big pluses over the Early Church version. I think he's highly playable in a variety of decks, and would have been even without the Reserve look. Adding anything else in the ability makes him an auto-include in any Crimson, Orange or Pale Green deck, and an easy splash in just about any other.

Yeah, but it still feels like a missed opportunity to right the wrongs of the EC one (which would still hold some value just by being UR, as that card's only function is essentially a trade piece to fill out a collection). Having multiple brigades/big numbers won't always be a blessing. So, when that fails, having an ability that's useful maybe once per game (basically no special ability in booster) is pretty underwhelming for a rare, especially since so much could be done. Even just going from 8/12 to 12/12 would bump him up to at least Leviathan's level and would come close to justifying having an ability that might not matter.

I thought the ability I saw was very strong, but not crazy strong without any "cannot be" modifiers (especially given CotH's prominence last year, and the angel offenses I expect to see this year). I recognize that the fact I'm still considering using him with such a weak ability is a testament to his other strong attributes. Goes to show how good colors/identifiers can push an otherwise prophets expansion-level character into use. I just kinda want more excitement than colors/identifiers from my rares nowadays. Greedy? Possibly, but that's also partially since we've been spoiled by the last set.

  -I can't wait for this set!

I've tentatively called them Site-Characters and changed Fire Foxes and the like to Enhancement-Characters, unless you want them all grouped together, then Multi-Type is probably best.

 In my database I just referred to them as dual card type

Who’s ready for a little freak out moment? You sure? You might want to sit down just in case…
Okay, here goes…

Spoiler (hover to show)

Spoiler (hover to show)

Now I know what you’re thinking, “WHY ARE EARTH ARE THEY PUTTING THIS ABILITY ON A CARD?!?!” To be honest, when I first suggested the idea during a brainstorming session, I could hardly believe I was saying it myself. Let me attempt to explain our reasoning and hopefully this will keep everyone calm. As I mentioned in the "Jesus Freaks" article about the martyr theme on Land of Redemption, one of the things we are trying to do is to give offensive themes a card that will be a “finisher” or “closer.” Something that can help give offense the final edge it needs to finish games before they time out. However, we don’t want those to be something that can simply be used as an endgame strategy in a defensive heavy deck (yes, we’re looking at you Watchful Servant).

If you think back to any game you’ve played with or against Disciples, how often do you recall the Disciples player having all 12 Disciples on the table? Probably not very often, and I’m guessing many times they weren’t even using all 12 in the deck, because a Disciples deck doesn’t need all 12—usually just enough to make Thaddeus roll over most defenses will suffice. However, this card will give people a reason to use all 12 and will make up for the inherent disadvantage of using the “weaker” Disciples like Andrew, James Son of Zebedee and Matthias (unless you’re running Holy Spirit) that don’t see much play. We’re not trying to say that Disciples have gotten weaker—in fact I think they are still one of the strongest themes—but we’ve certainly created a few more counters to their usual “closer” (Thaddeus). If someone does get all 12, then it is likely close to the end of the game anyway when we want games to finish. This card is also very preventable (unless used by John, the Apocalypstist or Thomas) and it will give the Disciple player an interesting decision: do they attack with a low numbered Hero to try and play this or do they attack with a nearly invincible Thaddeus with the whole group in play?

As always, we welcome your feedback on this card. If you feel like this card is way too strong, then I urge you to play a game or two using a Disciples deck (include a proxy card for this one), and I think you'll see just how difficult it is to not only get all 12 Disciples on the table, but also keep them there long enough to use this. If you think of it as a quasi-Alternate Win Condition, I think you'll truly appreciate the challenge.

I am loving the Bowls! Shouldn't they have the identifier Plague though? (As Revelation calls them the last plagues he pours out on the Earth.)

I think it is a wasted card the chances of anyone playing or having all 12 disciples is too far out there. There are so many other cards that could be made instead of this one that everyone can play instead of a card that is so specific.

That's the point though, to make people play crazy decks that have never been played before. the good thing about disciples is that they have the boat to protect them, so it's easier to get them all out and keep them out. think about this: Build a deck using Sow, reap, rejoice!, Disciples of the Lamb, and eternal inheritance. Then, get to sog nj/tsc as fast as possible, play them, then use DotL to get sog back, then Sow, reap rejoice on the new john for a cbn rescue, and finish using a clay thomas and eternal inheritance. like i said, lots of setup, but, if done properly, you could have to not play a single battle winner.   

Who’s ready for a little freak out moment? You sure? You might want to sit down just in case…
Okay, here goes…

Spoiler (hover to show)

Spoiler (hover to show)

Now I know what you’re thinking, “WHY ARE EARTH ARE THEY PUTTING THIS ABILITY ON A CARD?!?!” To be honest, when I first suggested the idea during a brainstorming session, I could hardly believe I was saying it myself. Let me attempt to explain our reasoning and hopefully this will keep everyone calm. As I mentioned in the "Jesus Freaks" article about the martyr theme on Land of Redemption, one of the things we are trying to do is to give offensive themes a card that will be a “finisher” or “closer.” Something that can help give offense the final edge it needs to finish games before they time out. However, we don’t want those to be something that can simply be used as an endgame strategy in a defensive heavy deck (yes, we’re looking at you Watchful Servant).

If you think back to any game you’ve played with or against Disciples, how often do you recall the Disciples player having all 12 Disciples on the table? Probably not very often, and I’m guessing many times they weren’t even using all 12 in the deck, because a Disciples deck doesn’t need all 12—usually just enough to make Thaddeus roll over most defenses will suffice. However, this card will give people a reason to use all 12 and will make up for the inherent disadvantage of using the “weaker” Disciples like Andrew, James Son of Zebedee and Matthias (unless you’re running Holy Spirit) that don’t see much play. We’re not trying to say that Disciples have gotten weaker—in fact I think they are still one of the strongest themes—but we’ve certainly created a few more counters to their usual “closer” (Thaddeus). If someone does get all 12, then it is likely close to the end of the game anyway when we want games to finish. This card is also very preventable (unless used by John, the Apocalypstist or Thomas) and it will give the Disciple player an interesting decision: do they attack with a low numbered Hero to try and play this or do they attack with a nearly invincible Thaddeus with the whole group in play?

As always, we welcome your feedback on this card. If you feel like this card is way too strong, then I urge you to play a game or two using a Disciples deck (include a proxy card for this one), and I think you'll see just how difficult it is to not only get all 12 Disciples on the table, but also keep them there long enough to use this. If you think of it as a quasi-Alternate Win Condition, I think you'll truly appreciate the challenge.

if the disciples are in potter's field, does that count as control?

That's the point though, to make people play crazy decks that have never been played before. the good thing about disciples is that they have the boat to protect them, so it's easier to get them all out and keep them out. think about this: Build a deck using Sow, reap, rejoice!, Disciples of the Lamb, and eternal inheritance. Then, get to sog nj/tsc as fast as possible, play them, then use DotL to get sog back, then Sow, reap rejoice on the new john for a cbn rescue, and finish using a clay thomas and eternal inheritance. like i said, lots of setup, but, if done properly, you could have to not play a single battle winner.   

Let's think about this logically for a moment. You are playing SoG/TSC as fast as possible that means you're rescuing 2 Souls. You then use DotL to get back SoG and rescue a third (as soon as you've got all 12 Disciples in play and can keep them in play--I think you really underestimate how hard that is going to be). You are now at 3. The only way you're going to be able to use SR&R is if you are losing (not tied, losing), which means your opponent already has 4 so now you're rescuing your 4th but your hand is gone and your opponent also has 4. Unless you're relying on LS drought, that doesn't put you in a very good position. Then if you do somehow stop your opponent from getting 5, you need to set up a Clay Thomas and get initiative to use EI.

There's another card that will be previewed soon that also relies on having 12 of a certain group of Hero in play to make it work and I haven't even been able to consistently pull it off in T2 where the game is longer and I have more Heroes. 

Rod of Moses interacts with plagues but they have to be from Exodus, so there should at least be an entry for "Exodus Plagues" beyond that, I can't think of any.

I also agree that, I'm not that scared of DotL!  PLEASE, PLEASE keep all of your disciples in your Fishing Boat until you get all 12, and I'll make sure you lose every single one of them!

Two situation/combos were discovered which would have led to Lamb's Righteousness being able to rescue a captured Hero on the opponent's turn...one of those situations we were okay with, the other not so much. Can you figure out what those situations/combos were? 

Looks like they weren't able to figure this one out.  It would be rude to Taunt anyone about this, and since Miracles do happen, I guess we give them more time?