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Quote from: jmhartz on September 04, 2012, 09:57:18 PM"top cut" ...guarantees two things: One, the winner had to win 3/4/5 straight games against his/her best competitors, and two, there will be no heartbreak or complaining over convoluted tie-breakers. You are right that it gets rid of convoluted tie-breakers. But the Swiss system we currently have already guarantees the winner had to win a bunch of games against the top players. This past summer, Martin Miller's last 4 rounds were wins against Jon Greeson, JSB, Polarius, and Chris Ericson (all of whom are well known top players and who all finished in the top 10 themselves). Top-cut isn't going to make anyone play a tougher schedule than that.So we need to get away from the idea that top-cut will add any more legitimacy to winning the tournament. The only real advantage that it has is regarding tie-breakers.
"top cut" ...guarantees two things: One, the winner had to win 3/4/5 straight games against his/her best competitors, and two, there will be no heartbreak or complaining over convoluted tie-breakers.
Quote from: jmhartz on September 04, 2012, 09:57:18 PM"top cut" ...guarantees two things: One, the winner had to win 3/4/5 straight games against his/her best competitors, and two, there will be no heartbreak or complaining over convoluted tie-breakers. You are right that it gets rid of convoluted tie-breakers. But the Swiss system we currently have already guarantees the winner had to win a bunch of games against the top players. This past summer, Martin Miller's last 4 rounds were wins against Jon Greeson, JSB, Polarius, and Chris Ericson (all of whom are well known top players and who all finished in the top 10 themselves). Top-cut isn't going to make anyone play a tougher schedule than that.
So we need to get away from the idea that top-cut will add any more legitimacy to winning the tournament. The only real advantage that it has is regarding tie-breakers.
For comparison look at 2007. In that tournament Gabe Isbell played precisely 2 top ten players in the final 8 rounds (the 2nd and 8th place finishers). A top-cut such has been proposed would guarantee that anyone placing would play a tougher schedule than that.
The main drawback of the Swiss Style system is that it values all wins equally. A player that is 2-5 and beats another player that is 2-5 is rewarded the same as a player that is 5-2 and beats another player that is 5-2 while in fact the wins are no where near equal.
Gabe's schedule in 2007 was actually decently hard as well. He played 2 top 10 finishers in his first 2 rounds, and his last 3 rounds were wins against Reggie Flores (respected player who finished top 20), Christian Rohrer (finished top 10), and Kevin Shride (finished #2).
A top-cut is unlikely to produce a harder schedule than that either.
Quote from: EmJayBee83 on September 04, 2012, 11:25:03 PMFor comparison look at 2007. In that tournament Gabe Isbell played precisely 2 top ten players in the final 8 rounds (the 2nd and 8th place finishers). A top-cut such has been proposed would guarantee that anyone placing would play a tougher schedule than that. Gabe's schedule in 2007 was actually decently hard as well. He played 2 top 10 finishers in his first 2 rounds, and his last 3 rounds were wins against Reggie Flores (respected player who finished top 20), Christian Rohrer (finished top 10), and Kevin Shride (finished #2).
In an X-2 cut, Gabe still would have made the cut in 2007, but he would have had to play at least 3 (4) players ranked in the top 8 (16) in addition to the players from his first two rounds in order to win, as opposed to 2 games against top 16 (Reggie placed 17th). Clearly top cut guarantees a more difficult schedule in this case.
Again, I think the only real advantage of top-cut is that it eliminates tie-breaker issues.
Is that not sufficient? The rest of our tie breaking solutions are inadequate to say the least.
Quote from: Korunks on September 05, 2012, 08:24:53 AMIs that not sufficient? The rest of our tie breaking solutions are inadequate to say the least.I'm not totally sure, but I don't think it is sufficient for me. The tie-breaking issue really hasn't been much of a problem in the past until this last summer when it came up at a couple regionals. Even at Nats this summer the tie that people are talking about is for 7th place, so that really doesn't matter much. I'm just not convinced that we should make major changes to the overall tournament format if it isn't going to change anything other than clearing up ties.On the other hand I am more interested in a couple of the other ideas that have come out which seem like they might make the tournament a lot more fair relating to strength of schedule. The idea from professional soccer of having small pools at the beginning rounds with a more even distribution of top players would be one way to do it. The idea of weighting the victory points based on the number of wins that your opponent has at that point of the tournament would be another way to do it. I suspect that the latter solution might ALSO solve the issues of ties.
Actually I think you're mistaken. If Gabe would have made the cut in 2007, then all the people in front of him would have as well. Therefore he would have played the same people the last 4 rounds as he did anyway, so the difficulty of his schedule wouldn't have changed at all with top-cut.Again, I think the only real advantage of top-cut is that it eliminates tie-breaker issues.
Actually I think you're mistaken. If Gabe would have made the cut in 2007, then all the people in front of him would have as well. Therefore he would have played the same people the last 4 rounds as he did anyway, so the difficulty of his schedule wouldn't have changed at all with top-cut.
Quick question...is Top Cut seeded? So in an 8 person top cut: 1 vs 8, 4 vs 5, 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6?
How do you think that top cut is more "eliteist" then sorting the supposed "Top Players" at the begining? I honestly want to know.
So, I recognize that at least one Elder is pretty firmly against this, and a couple other Elders seem to be indifferent
can this not be an idea that simply stagnates and dies because nobody with influence was willing to take it to Rob?
Quote from: Red on September 05, 2012, 09:16:14 AMHow do you think that top cut is more "eliteist" then sorting the supposed "Top Players" at the begining? I honestly want to know.I've explained this before, but I'll try again. Seeding players prior to a tournament is elitist just as much as a top-cut is elitist. The difference is that the elitism is at the beginning and therefore if you play well enough, then you still have complete control throughout the tournament of where you end up. And your schedule to reach the top will be much closer in level of difficulty to everyone else's. Doing a top cut moves the elitism to mid-way through the tournament, and then locks people into the potential winners and everyone else who doesn't even have the opportunity anymore to work their way up into those top 8/16/32 spots. This makes it seem more elitist to me.
I've explained this before, but I'll try again. Seeding players prior to a tournament is elitist just as much as a top-cut is elitist. The difference is that the elitism is at the beginning and therefore if you play well enough, then you still have complete control throughout the tournament of where you end up. And your schedule to reach the top will be much closer in level of difficulty to everyone else's. Doing a top cut moves the elitism to mid-way through the tournament, and then locks people into the potential winners and everyone else who doesn't even have the opportunity anymore to work their way up into those top 8/16/32 spots. This makes it seem more elitist to me.
Rob has an account here on the forum, and anyone is able to send him a PM about an issue that they feel is worth his time and energy to look into. However, I'd be more interested to discuss this a bit further ourselves before going forward with any proposals. For instance, Sir Nobody brought up the good point about victory points being the same in spite of the level of difficulty being very different. Does anyone have any input on whether a system which gave victory points based on the current record of the opponent is worth looking at more closely?
I believe that ranking people before we have any indication of how they're going to do in a tournament is much, much worse. You're basically going to be telling a specific group of people "we don't think you're good enough to be considered part of the 'elite
If this system has worked for those franchises, why would it not work for Redemption?
OK, so top cut has worked for some other games.
And weighting scores based on level of difficulty has worked well for diving/ice skating/gymnastics/etc. in the Olympics.
Rob, We currently have a topic discussing the merits of using a Top Cut system over the Swiss system we have now. I don't know if you remember, but I got the chance to talk to you about it at the very end of Nats this last year, and it seemed to be something you were receptive to. I won't ask you read the whole topic (it's long and in-depth, and will probably be twice as long as its current five pages by the time you get a chance to read it), though the first post details what Top Cut is just in case you don't remember the details. All I'm asking right now is is Top Cut something you would seriously consider implementing? There's obviously no reason to even discuss if you don't like the idea, but a lot of us think it would be extremely good for the game and community as a whole. If it is something you would seriously consider, then we can perhaps put together the specific ideas we'd like to see implemented for your review.Thanks for your consideration,Chris