Author Topic: Top Cut Feedback (Read 8180 times)

Alex_Olijar · « **on:** August 10, 2013, 05:08:16 PM »

First of all, thanks to Roy for hosting Nationals and taking a chance on top cut. Since I started the first thread outling the rules, etc, I thought it would be good to get feedback on the success or failure of top cut. Please answer the above question as best you can. Also, if you could post more information about your thoughts, I'd love to hear it. Here's some thought prompts that I would be interested in:

1. What did you do instead of playing if you didn't top cut?
2. If you didn't like the Top Cut, do you think it is a fair system to use to determine a winner?
3. Did Top Cut affect how you played the tournament in anyway?
4. Did you feel 7 rounds of swiss was sufficient to determine who the Top Cut should be?
5. How did making/missing Top Cut make you feel?
6. Were you aware throughout the tournament of the likelihood you had of making top cut?
7. Would you have watched the Top Cut matches if you were able?

Thanks in advance for your feedback. I will talk more about my thoughts on Redemption MetaGaming's Nationals Review.

DDiceRC · « **Reply #1 on:** August 10, 2013, 07:43:11 PM »

I did not arrive to play in T12P, but it wouldn't have mattered. Between the way the meta is going and the whole Top Cut issue, I have quit T1 completely. I would prefer never to have it again, but since I do not play T1 I think the players who do should be the ones to decide. Even if the meta changes, I would not play T12P with a Top Cut for philosophical reasons, but that doesn't mean it isn't effective for what it does.

Drrek · « **Reply #2 on:** August 10, 2013, 09:18:14 PM »

1. Talked with others who didn't make the cut. Honestly, while it was one of the most disappointing things to happen to me in redemption to miss out of the cut on a loss in round 7, I was a little tired of redemption at that point.

2. I like Top Cut, so this question isn't for me, but for what its worth, I think it is a very fair system for determining a winner.

3. No, it didn't, not for me.

4. Well it obviously should have been 6 rounds then cut, because I was likely to make it then. On a serious note, I think it was sufficient, at least at this tournament. I mean all 5-2 and up made it on a clear cut-off point.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #3 on:** August 10, 2013, 10:29:18 PM »

I added some more potential questions to consider.

Quote from: DDiceRC on August 10, 2013, 07:43:11 PM

I would not play T12P with a Top Cut for philosophical reasons

How is Top Cut philosophically different from a tournament in general? Not trying to goad, curious what distinction you draw.

Quote from: Drrek on August 10, 2013, 09:18:14 PM

1. Talked with others who didn't make the cut. Honestly, while it was one of the most disappointing things to happen to me in redemption to miss out of the cut on a loss in round 7, I was a little tired of redemption at that point.

2. I like Top Cut, so this question isn't for me, but for what its worth, I think it is a very fair system for determining a winner.

3. No, it didn't, not for me.

4. Well it obviously should have been 6 rounds then cut, because I was likely to make it then. On a serious note, I think it was sufficient, at least at this tournament. I mean all 5-2 and up made it on a clear cut-off point.

Was it more disappointing than simply losing your third game in normal swiss (which virtually guarantees under all mathematical outcomes you won't win)?

Drrek · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2013, 10:42:47 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 10, 2013, 10:29:18 PM

Quote from: Drrek on August 10, 2013, 09:18:14 PM
1. Talked with others who didn't make the cut. Honestly, while it was one of the most disappointing things to happen to me in redemption to miss out of the cut on a loss in round 7, I was a little tired of redemption at that point.

2. I like Top Cut, so this question isn't for me, but for what its worth, I think it is a very fair system for determining a winner.

3. No, it didn't, not for me.

4. Well it obviously should have been 6 rounds then cut, because I was likely to make it then. On a serious note, I think it was sufficient, at least at this tournament. I mean all 5-2 and up made it on a clear cut-off point.

Was it more disapointing than simply losing your third game in normal swiss (which virtually guarantees under all mathematical outcomes you won't win)?

I think it would depend on when I got that third loss. What really made it such a disappointing moment is the fact that it was a win and you're in, lose and you're out scenario, which are much more immediately crushing than getting eliminated early. I still am totally in support of top cut, I'm just saying that for me specifically those types of games disappoint me the most when I lose them.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2013, 10:45:14 PM »

Yeah, makes total sense, I just wanted to get a more public sense of what you thought (I sort of knew the answer from talking to you during the Top Cut). I know for myself it's also exciting to play those games. Round 6 I was playing to stay alive and it was one of the more intense games I've ever played!

DDiceRC · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2013, 10:53:39 PM »

My philosophical difference is that originally Redemption tournaments were primarily designed to foster fellowship among players and secondarily to provide competition with fairly limited prizes. Top Cut is just the latest step in the furthering of competition over fellowship. That isn't to say fellowship doesn't occur, but excluding the majority of players from the later rounds of the tournament diminishes the fellowship aspect, and the arguments for Top Cut almost entirely drew on other games with a more competitive (and sometimes profitable) atmosphere rather than the more collegial atmosphere of Redemption.

I have competed at various levels off and on since around 2001, and have hosted tournaments at every level except Nationals. I am beginning to feel about T12P the same way I felt about Magic tournaments, which is why I never chose to enter them. Redemption is becoming just another card game in the wide marketplace of card games, and it saddens me a bit.

All that said, if that is what the majority of players want then I am perfectly happy to be an old curmudgeon harrumphing about these kids and their newfangled ideas about making this stuff "Competitive." Back in the old days...

And no, it won't stop me from continuing as a tournament host (or even bidding on NE Regionals again), just from playing in certain events. Everyone's taste is different.

Chris · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2013, 11:05:08 PM »

1. What did you do instead of playing if you didn't top cut?
I began building for Teams the next day, hung out, and in general had a more relaxing evening than I would have if I had been in all ten rounds.

3. Did Top Cut affect how you played the tournament in anyway?
It didn't, other than how my reaction to my first loss (against Townsend in round 4) developed. Instead of disappointment, I was mostly apathetic because at the time, I assumed I would still easily be able to hit the 5-2 cutoff mark and make the cut. Obviously, this ended up not being the case, but it made the first loss sting less.

4. Did you feel 7 rounds of swiss was sufficient to determine who the Top Cut should be?
It was far too much for the amount of people we had. I think some system should be used to determine how many rounds are being played that is dependent on the number of people at the tournament - not an arbitrary number that might be too low or too high, depending on attendance. The same goes for how many people make top cut. With a field of 40 people, I believe that 4 people should have made cut, rather than 8. It's worth noting that 3 of the 4 people who were in the top 4 at the start of Top Cut did end up in the semi-finals.

5. How did making/missing Top Cut make you feel?
No different than making/missing placing in regular Swiss. It's a disappointment, yes, but the odds that I would even place (especially because my differential was garbage) were slim to none, even if I won the next three games in regular Swiss. I was mostly glad I wasn't being forced to play three more games when I wasn't playing for anything at all.

6. Were you aware throughout the tournament of the likelihood you had of making top cut?
I was 100% aware at any given point in the tournament.

7. Would you have watched the Top Cut matches if you were able?
Yes. If Top Cut had one major flaw this year, it was that the ending was anti-climatic because nobody was allowed to watch the games. Many people (even those like Westy, Olijar, and I) who pushed hard for Top Cut lost interest and went to play another game or do other stuff because there was no point in just sticking around. Either a crowd needs to be allowed (and remain silent or be removed from the room without warning) and the players can simply get over it, or some kind of closed-circuit system should be put in place.

Quote

Top Cut is just the latest step in the furthering of competition over fellowship. That isn't to say fellowship doesn't occur, but excluding the majority of players from the later rounds of the tournament diminishes the fellowship aspect

As a competitive player who did not make top cut, I can say with 100% certainty that this was not the case. I do not know of anyone that let not playing three more rounds ruin their day, and I heard lots of comments about people being glad to be done for the day. A few people went off to play another game, and in general, everyone just hung out. It functioned the exact same way a normal Swiss tournament would function, only there was even more fellowship time than normal. As far as I'm concerned, those that suggested that Top Cut would enhance the "fun and fellowship" side were completely correct.

soul seeker · « **Reply #8 on:** August 11, 2013, 09:59:03 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 10, 2013, 05:08:16 PM

Also, if you could post more information about your thoughts, I'd love to hear it. Here's some thought prompts that I would be interested in:

1. What did you do instead of playing if you didn't top cut?
2. If you didn't like the Top Cut, do you think it is a fair system to use to determine a winner?
3. Did Top Cut affect how you played the tournament in anyway?
4. Did you feel 7 rounds of swiss was sufficient to determine who the Top Cut should be?
5. How did making/missing Top Cut make you feel?
6. Were you aware throughout the tournament of the likelihood you had of making top cut?
7. Would you have watched the Top Cut matches if you were able?

* For those who don't know, I judged this day of play so my viewpoint is different. My 9 y.o. son did play (and those at the tournament know that he got last), and these are his answers to the questions (typed out by me--only grammatical errors were fixed).
1. I went to a nearby park with my family.
2. (From what he understood of Top Cut) He liked it because he could be done and do something with the family.
3. No
4. Yes
5. He was okay with missing the top cut.
6. No. (He didn't think he would make Top Cut.)
7. No, I still would have gone to the park with my family.

From a judge's point of view, I would like to answer question 3. It seems that people exhibited more intense (not sure if the best descriptive word) feelings coming from the players when I was called over to make a decision which caused me to feel more weight on my shoulders. I could have been putting this pressure on myself, but it did seem like the games in the top 20 or so spots were being taken more serious.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 11, 2013, 11:20:33 AM »

Quote from: soul seeker on August 11, 2013, 09:59:03 AM

From a judge's point of you, I would like to answer question 3. It seems that people exhibited more intense (not sure if the best descriptive word) feelings coming from the players when I was called over to make a decision which caused me to feel more weight on my shoulders. I could have been putting this pressure on myself, but it did seem like the games in the top 20 or so spots were being taken more serious.

I was apart of one of those transactions. I am not sure what could have been done to fix that particular situation. I believe the correct ruling was made by you and I feel bad that the situation escalated beyond that. Obviously your ruling didn't need backed up by an elder since it was correct but I can understand an opponent wanting total confirmation. I will say the fact that it could have effected top cut (which it actually made 0 difference in the end) isn't really any different then if it would effect placing swiss style. The fact of the matter is this ruling made the difference in 2 souls differential for 2 players that differential didn't even effect. Both of those players made the top cut and had an opportunity to win it all. I hope you don't carry this one heavy at all. Congrats on your son taking home the TA-2P thats awesome***

As much as we don't like it at the top level redemption has some players that are focused more on the competition. I think we can all agree that anyone can slip into the over competitive mode at times whether its top cut, swiss, nats, or a friendly game with someone we know. The goal is to check yourself and maintain a solid attitude. I have to give props to Maly and Early both of them are elite players that had rough shakes in games against me and both them displayed sportsmanship in exemplary levels. It is possible to want to win and to maintain a friendly attitude even in a top cut semi-final and final.

Chris · « **Reply #10 on:** August 11, 2013, 11:42:27 AM »

Quote

From a judge's point of view, I would like to answer question 3. It seems that people exhibited more intense (not sure if the best descriptive word) feelings coming from the players when I was called over to make a decision which caused me to feel more weight on my shoulders. I could have been putting this pressure on myself, but it did seem like the games in the top 20 or so spots were being taken more serious.

You and I talked about this a bit, and like I said before, I think that has less to do with top cut and more to do with what the field itself looked like. It was a tournament of only 40 people, and I would estimate that roughly half of the field was reasonably capable of making top cut, with about ten people likely to make it (among that group were Olijar and myself, neither of whom ended up cutting). It was going to be a Nats that was more competitive than average regardless of whether Top Cut was present or not. So yes, Top Cut may have played in a role in that, but I don't think it's the main culprit.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #11 on:** August 11, 2013, 01:52:07 PM »

Quote from: soul seeker on August 11, 2013, 09:59:03 AM

From a judge's point of view, I would like to answer question 3. It seems that people exhibited more intense (not sure if the best descriptive word) feelings coming from the players when I was called over to make a decision which caused me to feel more weight on my shoulders. I could have been putting this pressure on myself, but it did seem like the games in the top 20 or so spots were being taken more serious.

Trust me when I say that I know how you feel.

However, this is not a problem exclusive to Top Cut.

Townsend · « **Reply #12 on:** August 11, 2013, 03:06:37 PM »

Top cut was interesting this year. In my particular scenario I would have much rather finished the tournament as a complete swiss. Due to the fact that in top cut I was paired with someone that I previously lost to and I kinda thought that I would lose again. The part of top cut that I do not like is the fact that a person could start 7-0 be easily playing the best deck in the tournament an could even be the best player in the tournament lose in the first round of top cut due to a single bad draw and not place. I think I would rather see a double elimination style in the top cut, but overall it was not horrible thing and it worked fairly well for a first time.

Red · « **Reply #13 on:** August 11, 2013, 03:11:25 PM »

Quote from: mjwaree5 on August 11, 2013, 03:06:37 PM

Top cut was interesting this year. In my particular scenario I would have much rather finished the tournament as a complete swiss. Due to the fact that in top cut I was paired with someone that I previously lost to and I kinda thought that I would lose again. The part of top cut that I do not like is the fact that a person could start 7-0 be easily playing the best deck in the tournament an could even be the best player in the tournament lose in the first round of top cut due to a single bad draw and not place. I think I would rather see a double elimination style in the top cut, but overall it was not horrible thing and it worked fairly well for a first time.

I feel like personally Top Cut should be best of three. However people are unwilling to play later or let the top cut extend into a second day.

Gabe · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2013, 05:01:37 PM »

As we're assessing top cut, it's important to note that there are at least two people who normally play T12P, and do not play T2, who did not play on Friday because of us using top cut.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #15 on:** August 11, 2013, 05:09:23 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 11, 2013, 05:01:37 PM

As we're assessing top cut, it's important to note that there are at least two people who normally play T12P, and do not play T2, who did not play on Friday because of us using top cut.

As long as we are noting those as well, at least one player who usually plays T2 played T1 to support Top Cut because he liked the idea.

soul seeker · « **Reply #16 on:** August 11, 2013, 06:26:08 PM »

Quote from: Chris on August 11, 2013, 11:42:27 AM

Quote
From a judge's point of view, I would like to answer question 3. It seems that people exhibited more intense (not sure if the best descriptive word) feelings coming from the players when I was called over to make a decision which caused me to feel more weight on my shoulders. I could have been putting this pressure on myself, but it did seem like the games in the top 20 or so spots were being taken more serious.

You and I talked about this a bit, and like I said before, I think that has less to do with top cut and more to do with what the field itself looked like. It was a tournament of only 40 people, and I would estimate that roughly half of the field was reasonably capable of making top cut, with about ten people likely to make it (among that group were Olijar and myself, neither of whom ended up cutting). It was going to be a Nats that was more competitive than average regardless of whether Top Cut was present or not. So yes, Top Cut may have played in a role in that, but I don't think it's the main culprit.

That is a good point Chris and could be a contributing factor as well.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #17 on:** August 11, 2013, 06:49:14 PM »

I'll be posting my in depth thoughts on Top Cut soon, but I just wanted to chime in that I liked it

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #18 on:** August 11, 2013, 06:51:13 PM »

I'll also note that if I had been told beforehand the attendance numbers, this is not the top cut solution that I would have suggested. I suggested the option that works best for 55-75 people, not the one that works best for 40 people.

The Guardian · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2013, 07:21:15 PM »

I wasn't in T1 but I would probably have been opposed to Top Cut as it was used this year. I am in the camp that would find it difficult to watch an undefeated person go into Top Cut only to get a bad draw and get knocked out in the first round.

I am more than willing to discuss how it could be improved if it is a potential option for future years.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #20 on:** August 11, 2013, 07:25:25 PM »

1. What did you do instead of playing if you didn't top cut?
After first round of cut, I went to play The Resistance, but was constantly checking with other people to find out what was happening. As a player, I don't want to bother my opponent, but I definitely wanted to know what was going on.

2. If you didn't like the Top Cut, do you think it is a fair system to use to determine a winner?
I liked Top Cut and think it's fair.

3. Did Top Cut affect how you played the tournament in anyway?
Nope. I played to win every game. I did add Falling Away to my deck because I thought the soul differential would be very important for making cut, and I used it in almost every game, but it didn't change the way I played, just my deck building a bit.

4. Did you feel 7 rounds of swiss was sufficient to determine who the Top Cut should be?
Too sufficient. With 40 people, we should have had a fewer amount of rounds and maybe even a top 4 cut.

5. How did making/missing Top Cut make you feel?
Really good. Like, making top 10 is always something to shoot for, but Top Cut gave me a feeling of accomplishment and success that I've never had with the exception of placing. I honestly can't be mad about making cut. Losing honestly didn't disappoint me that much (in part because it was to Tim, and I knew I had a terrible matchup against him, but in part because that's an accomplishment by itself).

6. Were you aware throughout the tournament of the likelihood you had of making top cut?
Well, according to Prof U, it was only a 1 in 25 chance, and Prof A said 1 in 6, but the whole time I was keeping track of my losses and opponents and calculating the odds of cutting (which were higher than either prof

). Last round Bany told me and JDS that we had nothing to lose with our game, we had both cut.

7. Would you have watched the Top Cut matches if you were able?
Yes. Yesyesyesyesyes. The Resistance was fun and all, and I got to keep my background, but it would have been really exciting to watch.

SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx · « **Reply #21 on:** August 11, 2013, 07:48:15 PM »

1. What did you do instead of playing if you didn't top cut?
Tried sniping the games from a far enough distance where I knew I wouldn't get in trouble at. Would love to be able to watch them, or we could get all crazy and video them and project them in another area. We can wish right?

2. If you didn't like the Top Cut, do you think it is a fair system to use to determine a winner?
I think it is semi-fair. The only thing I would change would be best 2 out of 3 in top cut for all rounds OR add a mulligan system since time seems to be the biggest constraint.

3. Did Top Cut affect how you played the tournament in anyway?
Not really, I wasn't prepared at all for this years Nationals and always tried to my hardest to win, that just didn't happen.

4. Did you feel 7 rounds of swiss was sufficient to determine who the Top Cut should be?
This is debatable for me, I think there should be some equation used to determine how many rounds with a minimum number of rounds and a max. More players= more rounds. I would like to see the minimum be at least 8 or 9 rounds.

5. How did making/missing Top Cut make you feel?
I knew I wasn't going to make it after round 5 or so, so it wasn't a massive deal.

6. Were you aware throughout the tournament of the likelihood you had of making top cut?
Pretty aware throughout the whole tournament.

7. Would you have watched the Top Cut matches if you were able?
I would have loved to have been able to watch all the games, that is one flaw that happened.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 11, 2013, 11:17:04 PM »

Quote from: mjwaree5 on August 11, 2013, 03:06:37 PM

The part of top cut that I do not like is the fact that a person could start 7-0 be easily playing the best deck in the tournament an could even be the best player in the tournament lose in the first round of top cut due to a single bad draw and not place.

Quote from: The Guardian on August 11, 2013, 07:21:15 PM

I am in the camp that would find it difficult to watch an undefeated person go into Top Cut only to get a bad draw and get knocked out in the first round.

This seems to me to be more of an indictment of the draw-dependency of Redemption than on the Top Cut format.

The Guardian · « **Reply #23 on:** August 11, 2013, 11:20:48 PM »

Quote

This seems to me to be more of an indictment of the draw-dependency of Redemption than on the Top Cut format.

Not disagreeing, but because draw-dependency is a reality in Redemption (though I believe it has gotten way better in recent years) we should take that into account when deciding on tournament formats.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #24 on:** August 11, 2013, 11:59:19 PM »

Quote from: Westy on August 11, 2013, 07:25:25 PM

6. Were you aware throughout the tournament of the likelihood you had of making top cut?
Well, according to Prof U, it was only a 1 in 25 chance

Actually I said you had a 1 in 25 chance of you making the championship game.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 10, 2013, 05:08:16 PM

1. What did you do instead of playing if you didn't top cut?
2. If you didn't like the Top Cut, do you think it is a fair system to use to determine a winner?
3. Did Top Cut affect how you played the tournament in anyway?
4. Did you feel 7 rounds of swiss was sufficient to determine who the Top Cut should be?
5. How did making/missing Top Cut make you feel?
6. Were you aware throughout the tournament of the likelihood you had of making top cut?
7. Would you have watched the Top Cut matches if you were able?

1. Went to supper.
2. I think it is fair for the most part. I would feel differently if at 7-0 player lost on a fluke top-cut game and didn't place at all, but someone else who barely got into top-cut at 5-2 ended up winning it all. That doesn't seem fair. But that didn't happen this year, so

3. Yes. After round 5 I was in 21st place, and wanted to see if it was possible to still make the top cut. So I switched decks from my defense-heavy deck to a typical speed deck and won the next two rounds 5-1, 5-1. If I knew that I would get to play 5 more rounds instead of 2 I would've kept trying with my original deck and had more fun on the last couple rounds.
4. Yeah. All of the top cut people were top players and deserved to be at the top.
5. Not making it didn't really make me feel badly, and that's coming from the person who just barely missed out (9th place). I still placed in the top 10, and I felt like all the people above me were either better than me, or at least about the same. I also felt like I could've been in if I'd made a couple different choices.
6. Yeah, I pretty much knew all the time whether I was in or out. What did make me feel frustrated was that in the past, I've felt like I was in contention to place all the way up to round 9. With top cut, I was pretty sure that I was out after round 5. I did feel like it was a shame that half the field was out of contention after only half the rounds of a typical Redemption T1-2p Nats.
7. I would've at least watched the championship game. It is always fun to see a game between two top players. In fact before the day started there was a crowd of people watching a pick-up game between Gabe Isbell and Jon Greeson for just that reason.

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How do you feel about Top Cut having seen it in action?

Author Topic: Top Cut Feedback (Read 8180 times)

Chris

Chris

Warrior_Monk