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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Playgroup and Tournament Central => Redemption® Official Tournaments => Topic started by: RTSmaniac on March 27, 2011, 10:25:03 PM
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Are you sure you want to be a playtester?
What unfair disadvantage do the rest of us have when it comes to facing playtesters on the National Tournament scene?
As playtesters, these cardslingers get to see and help create new cards for NATS booster draft and this years 2011 sealed deck.
Are any playtesters going to be playing Sealed Deck at NATS? Who wants to face a playtester 1 on 1 in sealed deck with cards theyve seen for a year?
On a side note- just to be fair...how many non playtesters know about the cards already?
1998
Sealed Deck - 2 player Ron Sias, MI
Sealed Deck - Multiplayer Ron Sias, MI
1999
Sealed Deck - 2 player Daniel Horton
Sealed Deck - Multiplayer Ron Sias, MI
2000
Sealed Deck - 2 player Nicholas Campbell, MO
Sealed Deck - Multiplayer Aaron Torres, KS
2001
Sealed Deck - 2 player Dave Daugherty, OH
Sealed Deck - Multiplayer Brandon Knick, VA
2002
Sealed Deck - 2 player 36 Roy Cannaday, VA
Sealed Deck - Multiplayer Josiah Fiscus, PA
2003
Sealed Deck - 2 player 58 Brad Dembo, PA
Booster Draft
Brad Dembo (PA)
Joseph Pfeister (AZ)
Joshua Meneely (PA)
RNRS booster
???
2004
Sealed Deck Michael Bell, CT
Booster Draft
1st - Ken Shartle (FL)
2nd - Michael Bell (CT)
3rd - Tim Keller (FL)
RNRS booster
1st - Adam Erickson (MN)
2nd - Josiah Stroh (OH)
3rd - Sean Flynn (GA)
2005
Sealed Deck 62 Seth Mick, MN
Booster Draft
1st - John Nesfeder (KS)
2nd - Michael Welch (WI)
3rd - Jacob Weisenberger (MN)
RNRS booster
1st - Emmanuel Echavarria (CT)
2nd - Michael Welch (WI)
3rd - Ben Shadrick (TX)
2006
Sealed Deck 58 Claude Fong, NY
Booster Draft
1st - Sarah Harris (WV)
2nd - John Westhuis (NJ)
3rd - Elizabeth Gamble (NC)
RNRS booster
1st - Ben Shadrick (TX)
2nd - Tim Mierzejewski (PA)
3rd - Sara Harris (WV)
2007
Sealed Deck 60 Chad Soderstrom, TX
Booster Draft
1st - John Earley (MN)
2nd - Kyle Hamilton (MO)
3rd - Zack Zeiss
RNRS booster
1st - Ben Shadrick (TX)
2nd - Eric Wolfe (CA)
3rd - Ben Arp (WA)
2008
Sealed Deck 46 Michael Huerter, PA
Booster Draft
1st - Jacob Fountain
2nd - Gabe Isbell (IA)
3rd - Ben Shadrick (TX) and Nick Gonyea (TN) - tie
RNRS booster
1st - Gabe Isbell (IA)
2nd - Jonathan Greeson (NY)
3rd - Jeremy Kemp (IA)
2009
Sealed Deck 26 Sam Nurge - MA
Booster Draft
1st - Sam Nurge (CT)
2nd - Ben Shadrick (TX)
3rd - Andrew Kramer (CA)
RNRS booster
1st - Josh Randolf (OR)
2nd - Sam Nurge (CT)
3rd - Ben Nicholls (MN)
2010
Sealed Deck 32 Brandon Abbott - CA
Booster Draft
1st - Tyler Stevens (GA)
2nd - Matt Stupienski (CT)
3rd - Tim Mierzejewski (SC)
RNRS booster
1st - Shawn Capron (MD)
2nd - Tyler Stevens (GA)
3rd - Mark Underwood (KY)
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Who said that the set would be in Sealed Deck?
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Who said that the set would be in Sealed Deck?
Regardless, if it's used at Nats, there's an advantage difference.
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IF the set is sealed deck then I would agree 100% that there is an unfair advantage compared to the rather slight one in Booster. The key to sealed deck imo is knowing the decks VERY well thats half the reason I won last year with 3 prophets packs.
Your side note I would assume is there are a splattering of people who know cards but I doubt any one besides play testers and their play groups have seen the full list.
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i agree. in some ccg's playtesters and members of the R&D team are now allowed to play in official tournaments.
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i agree. in some ccg's playtesters and members of the R&D team are not allowed to play in official tournaments.
fixed
and i was just guessing about sealed...dont listen to me too much, just causing some ruckus. :)
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I honestly don't see that it's made a difference. The players that won that were playtesters (of which there were few) are really good players, and I don't doubt that it really helped them win.
Also, booster this past year was done well, with Bryon warning people to bring NT Lost Souls.
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I completely agree- as I was doing the research, I noticed my results didnt help my hypothisis until i started looking at the RNRS and there were a few more trends but other than that...
I also dont want to take away any victories from anyone because i feel everyone that won well deserved it. My ideas are based on what MKC said...i agree. in some ccg's playtesters and members of the R&D team are not allowed to play in official tournaments.
My question to the playtesters would be... Do you feel that in becoming a playtester and playing in events like boosterdraft that you may have any advantage over your opponents because of seeing and playtesting with the cards in advance?
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For Booster Draft and a new pack its 50/50 you basically the only advantage is you know what you can get in the packs. Booster Draft is random by nature so knowing the cards really cant give you that much as an advantage. Now tins are another story lol (first time playing foof at nats lol) that becomes alot more helpful as you can very likely guess how their deck works and what counters ect the tins have. Also helps with the drafting process as you know possibly what random counters may help you down the road. Child of Wisdom ftw
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I think that the random nature of Booster Draft minimizes the chance that we'll have any particular advantage. There are so many ways to lose a game of Booster Draft, even if you would beat everyone else at your table in a 2P game with those decks 9 out of 10 times, you could still find that the LS's just don't show up, or everyone seems to have the perfect defense when they need it, etc., etc. With the past two sets, I don't think there was really advantage at all. Each player had a reasonable max of 5 of the new cards in his deck (assuming that he took all of the new cards he could and perhaps one extra was passed to him), and the distribution was just as random for the playtesters as it was for everyone else (no one but Rob new how the packs were packaged, so if someone got a GoH at Nats, they didn't know that the person before them had just drafted a Mayhem). The biggest advantage of being a playtester is knowing how cards from the new set work together, but you will rarely have that chance. I suppose in some situations a playtester may draft, for example, a Herod from Apostles hoping that they would get a Herod's Treachery/Dungeon in the TexP pack, but I would guess the situations like that were pretty rare.
When it comes to the tin sets, there is probably a bit more advantage for the playtesters, since seeing one of the cards that a person has would tip them off to what else they have. But in this case, there is at most 1/5th of the deck that is new cards, and the random nature of the other cards would likely mitigate this advantage quite a bit.
As for Sealed Deck, if the new set was a starter deck, then playtesters would have a clear advantage. I can think of two possible solutions for this: 1) Don't use the new cards 2) Release the set list a week before Nationals so that everyone gets a chance to see the new cards before the tournament. I would support the second option, because I think that the idea of using the new set has been fun and has made BD one of the most popular categories at Nationals the past few years.
As for the category winners, the first Nats where the new cards were allowed was 2007 with FoOF. I don't think any of the people on those lists was a playtester when they placed, for RNRS or tournament placings.
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Thank you for posting ProfA. I honor you. Bless you my friend.
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As for the category winners, the first Nats where the new cards were allowed was 2007 with FoOF. I don't think any of the people on those lists was a playtester when they placed, for RNRS or tournament placings.
In the case of tins, it didn't really matter, since you got your cards before drafting. You already knew what you would get from the new set, and could go after assisting cards. With disciples, I would have taken Good Samaritan first round had I known about Kindness. Although, I didn't play booster this past nats...but had I...
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Was that California?
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As for the category winners, the first Nats where the new cards were allowed was 2007 with FoOF. I don't think any of the people on those lists was a playtester when they placed, for RNRS or tournament placings.
In the case of tins, it didn't really matter, since you got your cards before drafting. You already knew what you would get from the new set, and could go after assisting cards. With disciples, I would have taken Good Samaritan first round had I known about Kindness. Although, I didn't play booster this past nats...but had I...
Did you not read his post? >:c. If I saw someone had Jacob and an artifact, I would know not to attack them if at all possible for fear of Uzzah. Other players may sadface.
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Fail. I disagree though. The main thing is drafting cards. Worrying about what your opponent has is not as important.
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I'm pretty bad at this game, so knowing what the cards are before hand doesn't really help me much ;)
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I verymuch remember whats being drafted in packs for example i dont draft sites first pick but i remember what colors i see if someone else gets it so i can draft some heros for it. ex. gold hero or gold site which one u draft first?
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Fail. I disagree though. The main thing is drafting cards. Worrying about what your opponent has is not as important.
If I know there is a possibility someone has the same tin color as me (such as Syrians and Romans in FOOF), I might alter my strategy somewhat.
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It's pretty easy to see here. With tins and new sets playtesters do indeed have an unfair advantage on deck building/drafting. New players not knowing about Kindness is a perfect example. If the new set is sealed, and I get paired up against a playtester in the later rounds I would think, I would definitely say he has an unfair advantage on me. The playtester has a huge upper hand the first few rounds at least while everyone is learning their cards/abilities. IF the new set is a starter deck that is being used for sealed deck for this year's nationals, then I would say playtesters should not be allowed to participate in the category. Even if you are not an official playtester, like me for example with Eric. On previous sets we have playtested them, if I did that with this set then I would play the other category that day, or judge.
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It's pretty easy to see here. With tins and new sets playtesters do indeed have an unfair advantage on deck building/drafting. New players not knowing about Kindness is a perfect example. If the new set is sealed, and I get paired up against a playtester in the later rounds I would think, I would definitely say he has an unfair advantage on me. The playtester has a huge upper hand the first few rounds at least while everyone is learning their cards/abilities. IF the new set is a starter deck that is being used for sealed deck for this year's nationals, then I would say playtesters should not be allowed to participate in the category. Even if you are not an official playtester, like me for example with Eric. On previous sets we have playtested them, if I did that with this set then I would play the other category that day, or judge.
I understand the concern, but because there are many unofficial playtesters, so is that mean all of us can be judge for that category? If we cannot judge this category, then we technically done for the day. It would be too boring for us to miss out on this. I hope I make myself clear. Thank you.
Michael Leung
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Another thing to consider is the sheer number of people who actually do see the cards at somepoint during the playtest proccess -
If you consider that we've been averaging around 100 people the last few nationals, say 80 of them play Booster/Sealed - Right now we're looking at the 15 Elders out of those 80 being unable to play. Add in 1 person from each Elders playtest group that they play with and you're already looking at around 40% of that category being DQ'ed. And thats assuming that each Elder only playtests with 1 other person. Now for me that's actually true - and I know Chris hasn't shown them to anyone. I doubt Kevin has either - But I know that Roy and Bryon both playtest with thier groups, so that more than balances out. Then if you consider everyone who might have had a card or two revealed to them, but not the whole list, and suddenly you're looking at a huge percentage of the playerbase.
Raise your hand if you know one of the cards in the new set. I'm sure its more than just us Elders and PT groups.
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Tim accidentally leaked the name of one card at the T2 only (and by leaked I mean he was logged into the boards while people were crowded around him and there was a thread in the PTB side). Am I DQ'd?
Wait, I'm DQ'd for a different reason? >:c
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You're DQ'd cause you abused Eleazar's Sword.
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You're just DQing me because you're racist and I'm going to be foreign.
Wait, MN finally got nats? Like it should have last year? Nevermind. I just Eleazar's Sword is the reason.
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2007
Booster Draft
1st - John Earley (MN)
Yet I have the trophy....hmmm....4 years later and still not fixed....as to this argument, and I can honestly say I don't know any of the playtest cards, but I won't be at nationals this year so I feel my opinion may not be warranted. We would have to see after this year depending on things if a playtester actually won a category (say sealed for example) where the majority of the cards are new. I agree that playtesters should feel free to play in Booster because you get at most maybe 10% of your deck from the new set...unless people REALLY don't know what they are doing when drafting...
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As for Sealed Deck, if the new set was a starter deck, then playtesters would have a clear advantage. I can think of two possible solutions for this: 1) Don't use the new cards 2) Release the set list a week before Nationals so that everyone gets a chance to see the new cards before the tournament. I would support the second option, because I think that the idea of using the new set has been fun and has made BD one of the most popular categories at Nationals the past few years.
I vote option 2 please :) and could we bump the date up to...oh, i dont know...today?
Another question...man i know how to make friends-
How many of these people knew about the cards and had somekind of advantage over other players because of it?
2010
Sealed Deck 32 Brandon Abbott - CA
Booster Draft
1st - Tyler Stevens (GA)
2nd - Matt Stupienski (CT)
3rd - Tim Mierzejewski (SC)
RNRS booster
1st - Shawn Capron (MD)
2nd - Tyler Stevens (GA)
3rd - Mark Underwood (KY)
Who got 4th place? :-X
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I also want to make another point clear-
Most of us on the boards- even non playtesters- knew about the new sets before they were released.
I think to be fair to everyone else- there should be a prerelease of some kind as ProfA has suggested so that the claims made on this post (no matter how mistaken) can not be an issue in the future.
As for releasing the new set to the public, realistically, I would say revealing a new card every day a month prior to the release seems logical.
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I also want to make another point clear-
Most of us on the boards- even non playtesters- knew about the new sets before they were released.
I think to be fair to everyone else- there should be a prerelease of some kind as ProfA has suggested so that the claims made on this post (no matter how mistaken) can not be an issue in the future.
As for releasing the new set to the public, realistically, I would say revealing a new card every day a month prior to the release seems logical.
I remember seeing CP for the first time after Nats and thinking, "what's so good about that?"
Then I learned about the other sites...
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How many of these people knew about the cards and had some kind of advantage over other players because of it?
2010
RNRS booster
3rd - Mark Underwood (KY)
I don't know about anyone else, but me being a playtester had absolutely no affect on me in 2010. I didn't become an elder until just a few months before Nats last summer, so I knew nothing about any of the TXP cards that were legal during 2010 until the set was released.
I also personally chose to NOT look at any of the Disciples cards until after they were released this year. Since they had already been sent to the printer before I became an elder, I didn't have a chance to give any input on them. Therefore, since I wasn't helping to make the set, I just chose to not get to look at them until everyone else did.
As for this overall issue, I don't think that playtesting the cards really would make much of a difference in Booster draft. I do think that it could make a difference in Sealed Deck, but since when do Elder-caliber players choose Sealed Deck over whatever else is that day anyway?
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We would have to see after this year depending on things if a playtester actually won a category (say sealed for example) where the majority of the cards are new.
and this is why I started this post because I dont want people to take on this view...
I also personally chose to NOT look at any of the Disciples cards until after they were released this year. Since they had already been sent to the printer before I became an elder, I didn't have a chance to give any input on them. Therefore, since I wasn't helping to make the set, I just chose to not get to look at them until everyone else did.
I remember this Mark.
As for this overall issue, I don't think that playtesting the cards really would make much of a difference in Booster draft. I do think that it could make a difference in Sealed Deck, but since when do Elder-caliber players choose Sealed Deck over whatever else is that day anyway?
Saturday - open at 8am, start play at 9am
Type 1 Multiplayer 5 rounds
Sealed deck 6 rounds
Teams 6 rounds
So what does everyone want to play this year? Another note: If sealed does consist of new starter decks, everyone will have plenty of time to see the cards before Saturday and I assume trade the heck out of them. :)
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We in the NW have always been in the dark about everything. As such, we do not have an opinion on the matter.
We just like surprises. ;)
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I knew the entire set before Booster draft despite not directly playtesting any cards for Disciples. Does that mean I can not play?
I disagree with the entire premise of this argument. In a random event like Booster draft, knowing the cards is not that much of an advantage. I might be able to grab a Good Samaritan in hopes of a Kindness, but even then, there is no gurantee, and I may have just wasted my draft. Or, if I see a Jake and an artifact, yeah, he could have an Uzzah, but he could also have a hand of 4 and no ECs. Ultimately, the minor advantage of knowing more about the cards is completely mitigated by the fact that booster in by far largely initially determined by luck.
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Even before I was part of the Redemption play test team I did not have a problem with them playing in the sealed event at Nationals. I still don't. Some of my reasons for that are:
In the draft, new cards make up a small portion of the total card pool.
In a multi-player event people are more likely to pick on the "known entity" (aka the play tester).
Just because they volunteer their time to help give us a great game to play doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to enjoy it too.
The entire card list is released the day before or the first day of Nationals. Everyone has a chance to look it over.
Since becoming an elder and seeing more of the process involved I've also learned these things:
Not all of the elders are involved in the card design and testing process. Some play important other roles are don't participate in every set due to the season of their life.
There are too many cards in any set for each person to thoroughly play test them all. That's why we have a team. It's likely that none of the elders are familiar with all the cards.
The card list changes often. Cards are added/removed weekly for various reasons. Abilities, stats and even brigades change during the process. When Disciples was released I found myself sometimes thinking "I don't remember this card doing that!"
The cards usually go to print in late April. Most of the elders don't look at the list or give it a second thought after that.
Since the new set has been released during booster draft every year since I started playing Redemption some of those things don't apply directly to Sealed Deck. I can see where someone who play tested would have more of an advantage there. For several of the reasons listed above I still don't mind elders playing sealed deck, even though I never have.
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If this game had a larger player base and more popularity I would be fine if the PTB were not allowed to play in the sealed catagories. But since this game is smaller and about fun and fellowship I think they should be able to have fun too.
As for an advantage they obviously do have one, but booster is so random it isn't a large enough one to justify this course of action.
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I agree. :)
I luz me some playtesters!
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2010
Sealed Deck 32 Brandon Abbott - CA
Booster Draft
1st - Tyler Stevens (GA)
2nd - Matt Stupienski (CT)
3rd - Tim Mierzejewski (SC)
RNRS booster
1st - Shawn Capron (MD)
2nd - Tyler Stevens (GA)
3rd - Mark Underwood (KY)
You're lucky 2 out of those 6 people happen to be your best friend! I plead da fifth.
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Personally, I'm not a fan of someone having an upper hand on me because of privileged status, but that's me.
I do believe playtesters have an advantage no matter how minute.
However, to be fair, I don't know why I am not a playtester, but if my guess is correct, then those who are playtesters likely would have an advantage over me anyway.
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One thing that could dissolve any skepticism is for the cards to be revealed to the public like a week before nats, so everyone can have plenty of time to get used to them. I never understood why the cards couldn't be seen until like right at nats. Surprise factor? What's the value? Maybe so the playtesters have an advantage, eh?
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I actually really really like nobody knowing the cards at the time of booster/sealed (which is why I'm so happy that we're doing Booster first. If the set is for booster, it'll be awesome debuting it so that nobody (except playtesters...) know any of the new cards. If it's sealed, it doesn't really matter, since I don't play sealed. I could care less if playtesters do know...as long as they don't beat me. ;)
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but if nobody knows then thats still unfair i mean hes prolly gonna be there lol ;D ;D ;D
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2010
Sealed Deck 32 Brandon Abbott - CA
Booster Draft
1st - Tyler Stevens (GA)
2nd - Matt Stupienski (CT)
3rd - Tim Mierzejewski (SC)
RNRS booster
1st - Shawn Capron (MD)
2nd - Tyler Stevens (GA)
3rd - Mark Underwood (KY)
You're lucky 2 out of those 6 people happen to be your best friend! I plead da fifth.
Ahh YEA! Can Tyler Stevens, current Booster Draft Champion, hold on to his title? Will he reign supreme?
I say NO! Reason?
Day 1:
Thursday - open at 8am, start play at 9am
Type 2 Multiplayer 4 rounds
Booster Draft 5 rounds
Type 2 event. 4 Rounds.
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My belts on the line this year, I will be playing type 2 multi this year.
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I'm pretty bad at this game, so knowing what the cards are before hand doesn't really help me much ;)
That is same with few playtester as well. Even knowing all the cards doesn't mean they play that certain brigade. I mean I love White, Purple, but I always get Green and Gold in Booster. Plus, Booster draft is a randomize, so not everyone would get the new cards. Lastly, for Seal deck, doesn't the players have time to read through their cards after they drafted? So they can have a chance to learn their new cards and the box of the deck should tells what color are in each deck so to be fair, players can get a brief understanding of the deck, but if you are like Brandon, then use cheap packs and create a national winning deck.
I actually really really like nobody knowing the cards at the time of booster/sealed (which is why I'm so happy that we're doing Booster first. If the set is for booster, it'll be awesome debuting it so that nobody (except playtesters...) know any of the new cards. If it's sealed, it doesn't really matter, since I don't play sealed. I could care less if playtesters do know...as long as they don't beat me. ;)
From earlier conversations, you guys were talking about using new sets in tournament. Well, can't we just have booster draft using new cards and seal don't. Because I do see seal have a little bit disadvantage while booster is just a randomize making deck. Thanks.
ML.
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I had no special advance knowledge of the cards. Then again, I got third place, and even that was debatable (the strange stuff going on with inconsistent score reporting in a game with Bryon Hake).
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I still don't understand why people like waiting until the last moment to figure out what the new cards are. I would MUCH rather study them all at leisure before going to the tournament, to know what to expect, plan, and trade for once I get there. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't have an iPad to bring with me to the tournament, so I can't look up all the cards right after they go up on the REG.
And if you don't WANT to see the new cards, you don't have to look...
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Please do not read the following post as being arrogant, at all, for those of you that know me know that I am not one to boast. I've just been around in the Booster and Sealed world for a while and have had my share of experiences.
Knowing what cards you could get doesn't mean you will get them. I see nothing wrong with playtesters playing. When it comes down to it, Booster and Sealed are games highly based on random factors. But those random factors can either be used correctly or incorrectly, which is where the player's skill comes into play. Frankly, I would love for you to know all of the cards I could have gotten, but you won't know what cards I did get. Your knowledge of what I could have only strengthens one of the strongest aspects of Sealed and Booster, the bluff.
I <3 Booster.
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Are dice makers forbidden from yatzee?
Also, booster is my favorite catagory. Too bad its too expensive to host it myself.
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Are dice makers forbidden from yatzee?
The difference is knowing what the dice do doesn't give them an advantage.
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It's not that there is a huge advantage in booster, because there really is not. The advantage comes when, and IF, the new set is sealed.
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Advance knowledge of 4-5 cards in your deck < Advance knowledge of 50.
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I think you're agreeing with me on sealed deck...? If so then yes, there is a huge advantage of playtesting sealed decks and competiting at nationals. But I honestly wouldn't mind either way because as someone posted earlier, they worked on the set all year, they should be able to play whatever they want.
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Heck, they're volunteers. While I think they'd have an advantage, I think it's alright, considering it's one of two job perks.