Author Topic: Rule changes discussion (Specifically hand limit) (Read 17237 times)

redemption99 · « **Reply #25 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:23:17 PM »

how so scheaf?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #26 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:23:57 PM »

Deck limit I'm assuming.

redemption99 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:26:38 PM »

Deck limit does not affect the GoH combos that much, just a few that ppl were suggesting

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #28 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:29:58 PM »

But he referred to the "Gates of Heck" controversy, which I'm assuming means the biggest one.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #29 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:30:30 PM »

Here are my thoughts on the main changes:

2) This is really nice. Great idea!

3) And there was much rejoicing!

6) Finally! I hate me drawing 1 LS, my opponent drawing the hopper, and him going first with a coin flip.

7) YIPPEE!

8 ) I think this will work for the better. While this stops my simple draw 10 combo, (3 + Pentecost + 1st Fruits), I think this will help curb multi speed. As a member of MASK, I like this.

9) I guess Gates of Hell caused this. I don't really like it, but there MUST be a combo I'm not thinking of that this prevents. Any ideas?

The rule I wished were also announced:

10) Pre prep phase. However, with the introduction of the 2nd player draw, this becomes slightly less important. I still want it though.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #30 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:37:10 PM »

Right now I'm most interested in #1: What's the new promo anyone?

TheMarti · « **Reply #31 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:11:19 PM »

Does this rule only apply to T1? Cause I can see this becoming a HUGE problem in T2...

Sean · « **Reply #32 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:13:29 PM »

Why would it be a HUGE problem in type 2?

ejberkenpas22 · « **Reply #33 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:20:25 PM »

When was the last time a Speed deck won nationals...clearly its not that big of a problem. And it will still work with a hand limit anyways. People need to stop complaining and just enjoy the game win or lose...its not all about winning!

TheMarti · « **Reply #34 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:21:47 PM »

I'm not whining, just stating.

I said I could see it becoming a problem. That kills some potential 5x speed card combos. Yeah, you gotta be more deliberate, whatever.

ejberkenpas22 · « **Reply #35 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:27:24 PM »

Quote from: The Marti on August 04, 2009, 11:21:47 PM

I'm not whining, just stating.

I said I could see it becoming a problem. That kills some potential 5x speed card combos. Yeah, you gotta be more deliberate, whatever.

Well I wasn't really talking about your comment or anyones for that matter...just the general whine about speed decks (similar to that of the general whine about TGT). I'm just saying in general people need to just have fun playing the game and realize that this game especially, its not all about winning. Its about having fun with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, and possibly learning about the Bible through the cards in the game (who would have known all the names for Satan?). Its hard to express tone with typing, I was not attacking anyone.

Colin Michael · « **Reply #36 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:32:37 PM »

Gates of Hell is worthless now.

The Schaef · « **Reply #37 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:40:27 PM »

Also congratulations in large part to Mark Underwood, whose work on the Teams format in 2008 was so well-done that it was mostly-duplicated this year and eventually became the sanctioned format.

The Guardian · « **Reply #38 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:59:40 PM »

I like all of the ideas presented by Rob a lot except the hand limit. I agree with RDT that 16 might be a bit on the low side. However, perhaps a good compromise would be to leave it at 16, but the one time you can go over is during your draw phase. I believe for consistency's sake, we don't say that a player with 14 cards in hand (from drawing on his previous block) can only draw two during his next draw phase. This eliminates the huge drawing combos, but doesn't complicate the draw phase.

Anyone else in favor of this?

ejberkenpas22 · « **Reply #39 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:02:23 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on August 04, 2009, 11:59:40 PM

I like all of the ideas presented by Rob a lot except the hand limit. I agree with RDT that 16 might be a bit on the low side. However, perhaps a good compromise would be to leave it at 16, but the one time you can go over is during your draw phase. I believe for consistency's sake, we don't say that a player with 14 cards in hand (from drawing on his previous block) can only draw two during his next draw phase. This eliminates the huge drawing combos, but doesn't complicate the draw phase.

Anyone else in favor of this?

I am in favor of not making rules to stop deck strategies but to create cards.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #40 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:11:22 AM »

But Justin, now you are saying you can have more in your opening draw but not more than 16 normally. How do you explain that to starting players? Uhm so you can have over 16 when you draw first phase but you can't go over that in battle phase...No thank you. How about we leave it alone for this season and see if speed camp is prevalant. I see this going two ways, the first one being people will see the deck that won nationals and duplicate it like always. The problem with that is that you must know when to do the combo and how to play it. Also the more games that plays the higher chance it has of not getting what it needs on the opening draw to turn 3. The second way this might go is people seeing my deck and how it sytopped it and incorporate some of those strategies into their decks. Also with another good dominant sin in the camp is not going to be as effective. Just let it be for now. If people are getting stomped by speed combo decks then something can be done, but just because of one deck shutting down it's opponent on the first few turns is nothing to change the rules about. That deck took Clift three years to make for crying out loud! Let it work for another year. In the next set I am sure a lost soul or two might come out that hurts it even more...

Lawfuldog · « **Reply #41 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:13:17 AM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on August 05, 2009, 12:11:22 AM

But Justin, now you are saying you can have more in your opening draw but not more than 16 normally. How do you explain that to starting players? Uhm so you can have over 16 when you draw first phase but you can't go over that in battle phase...No thank you. How about we leave it alone for this season and see if speed camp is prevalant. I see this going two ways, the first one being people will see the deck that won nationals and duplicate it like always. The problem with that is that you must know when to do the combo and how to play it. Also the more games that plays the higher chance it has of not getting what it needs on the opening draw to turn 3. The second way this might go is people seeing my deck and how it sytopped it and incorporate some of those strategies into their decks. Also with another good dominant sin in the camp is not going to be as effective. Just let it be for now. If people are getting stomped by speed combo decks then something can be done, but just because of one deck shutting down it's opponent on the first few turns is nothing to change the rules about. That deck took Clift three years to make for crying out loud! Let it work for another year. In the next set I am sure a lost soul or two might come out that hurts it even more...

Lawfuldog supports this post.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #42 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:14:28 AM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on August 05, 2009, 12:11:22 AM

How do you explain that to starting players?

How about "If you have 16 or more cards in your hands, you may not draw cards outside of the draw phase." This essentially puts a hand cap, while still not breaking basic game functions.

The Guardian · « **Reply #43 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:16:26 AM »

Typically I do not like changing from the status quo myself, but Rob did say these rules are in effect on a trial basis. Sometimes you just need to put a crimp in a strategy so powerful it utterly dominates (like Gabe did with Clift's deck and like Chris Bany did with Ron Sias' deck a few years ago, which brought about the side battle change).

I also agree though that more players could have prepared for this strategy. Obviously the one who did (Tyler) handled it pretty easily. Had I gone to Nationals, I was definitely planning to build a deck specifically aimed at stopping a Speed Camp deck if I heard there was one being used. It would be fairly simple with Rain Becomes Dust/Hidden Treasures/Household Idols/Confusion of Mind x3 (most of which are useful in any deck).

Lawfuldog · « **Reply #44 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:17:09 AM »

Quote from: Arch Angel on August 05, 2009, 12:14:28 AM

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on August 05, 2009, 12:11:22 AM
How do you explain that to starting players?
How about "If you have 16 or more cards in your hands, you may not draw cards outside of the draw phase." This essentially puts a hand cap, while still not breaking basic game functions.

With all of the elaborate erratas and 'play as' for cards, Redemption doesn't need anymore specific rulings unless it gets to the point where it's absolutely necessary.

The Guardian · « **Reply #45 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:19:29 AM »

Tyler,
I'm not exactly supporting the change, but rather operating under the assumption that it's going to happen and I would just like to keep from messing with the draw phase.

ejberkenpas22 · « **Reply #46 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:21:28 AM »

There either needs to be a limit set with no exceptions or side rules or no limit and just leave it how it is. There will be complaints either way and there is no stopping it. You can't please everyone!

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #47 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:24:28 AM »

Quote

Tyler,
I'm not exactly supporting the change, but rather operating under the assumption that it's going to happen and I would just like to keep from messing with the draw phase

Ok I gotcha.
But I will make another post putting my theory up on this new rule change experiment thing.

The Guardian · « **Reply #48 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:28:49 AM »

EJB,
How difficult is it to say "Your hand size cannot exceed 16 unless it occurs during your draw phase" ? As far as I know, the ony card abilities that mess with the draw phase are the "Opponent may not draw cards next turn" cards, which wouldn't affect this anyway.

ejberkenpas22 · « **Reply #49 on:** August 05, 2009, 12:34:42 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on August 05, 2009, 12:28:49 AM

EJB,
How difficult is it to say "Your hand size cannot exceed 16 unless it occurs during your draw phase" ? As far as I know, the ony card abilities that mess with the draw phase are the "Opponent may not draw cards next turn" cards, which wouldn't affect this anyway.

I guess your right, its just that its not uncommon for something to become overcomplicated in this game and I think it should be avoided in this case you know?

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Author Topic: Rule changes discussion (Specifically hand limit) (Read 17237 times)

TheMarti

TheMarti

The Schaef