Author Topic: Rule changes discussion (Specifically hand limit) (Read 17412 times)

Red Dragon Thorn · « **on:** August 04, 2009, 07:30:12 PM »

Rob, (and Playtesters/Other influential people)

I love the idea of a hand limit, I know numbers were being bandied about from 15 to 30,
I kind of like 16, it's a good number assuming that your hand started the turn at 8, but what if I drew 2 cards off a horses on my Defence, or worse yet played Emperor Vit, Horses, Heavy taxes and ended up at 15 cards? I simply don't draw my opening 3 a fundamental part of redemption forever?

Additionally consider Tables of the Law, now I can only draw and additional 6 cards.

I would like to see either a slightly higher number, or better yet the following:

"Your hand can never exceed the twice the size that it will be discarded to and the end of the turn."

This offers some flexibility,
If I have Tables down I can go to 20 cards
If I block with Death and Hades I've limited you to 14 cards,

This can only encourage those cards to see play which is something that redemption has been striving for the past few years.

Thanks,

John

TheMarti · « **Reply #1 on:** August 04, 2009, 07:34:50 PM »

I agree. There should be stipulations based on things like Tables and Death and Hades. Tables already "rewards" you by allowing you 2 more cards in your hand. The double rule would help those cards continue to be used.

~Marti

lightningninja · « **Reply #2 on:** August 04, 2009, 07:50:38 PM »

Not a bad idea... although I don't like not drawing 3 cards at the start of my turn.

Stupid Speed Camp...

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #3 on:** August 04, 2009, 07:54:13 PM »

Agreed, thats my main problem with the rule also is the start of turn draw, perhaps if the rule was do not draw cards for special abilities if your hand is over X cards.

Lawfuldog · « **Reply #4 on:** August 04, 2009, 07:59:57 PM »

I know most will disagree with my opinion, but I do not like, in the least bit, the new hand limit rule.

I do support the second player draws 3. I guess...

redemptioncousin · « **Reply #5 on:** August 04, 2009, 08:07:18 PM »

IMO, any single card combo should allow you to draw the full amount of cards. Therefore, I believe the limit should be 18.

8 cards in hand + 3 card draw at beginning of turn + Hur with gifts (7 cards) = 18 cards

I truly feel that Hur + Gifts is a valid play and should not be penalized...

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #6 on:** August 04, 2009, 08:08:22 PM »

What ruling is this? What'd I miss...?

Sean · « **Reply #7 on:** August 04, 2009, 08:14:13 PM »

I think 20 would be a better number for maximum hand size. It is nice and round.

Quote

"Your hand can never exceed the twice the size that it will be discarded to and the end of the turn."

I think something like this is too lawyerish. A simple solid number is what I like.

lightningninja · « **Reply #8 on:** August 04, 2009, 08:14:18 PM »

Quote from: redemptioncousin on August 04, 2009, 08:07:18 PM

IMO, any single card combo should allow you to draw the full amount of cards. Therefore, I believe the limit should be 18.

8 cards in hand + 3 card draw at beginning of turn + Hur with gifts (7 cards) = 18 cards

I truly feel that Hur + Gifts is a valid play and should not be penalized...

What about love at first sight? Should the cap be at 19?

ejberkenpas22 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 04, 2009, 08:18:19 PM »

why hand limit? just play rain becomes dust. period. end of story. That would stop a speed deck on a dime

Sean · « **Reply #10 on:** August 04, 2009, 08:19:52 PM »

Rain becomes Dust has been available for three tournament seasons. If it was the answer to speed there would not have been a need to test the hand limit as a rule.

Colin Michael · « **Reply #11 on:** August 04, 2009, 08:57:09 PM »

I don't like the idea of a hand limit. I think we should just increase the risk of having a large amount of cards in your hand. Also, the discard rule works well as it is: if you draw your whole deck, you have to discard your whole deck.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #12 on:** August 04, 2009, 09:42:57 PM »

I think this is only a concern due to Speed Camp which has been around for three years. The only reason it is being discussed is because it won and won big. fact is this deck does get a bad draw and has only won two tournaments all year. I think we need to try out the secnod player draws three and see how speed camp works this coming year. With Nathan, Darius' Decree, and Stalks of Flax the deck took another small hit. Also with a new dominant there are now 6 worthy good dominants, and only five confusions. I do not think it is something to change an entire ruling over that will stand until changed again.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #13 on:** August 04, 2009, 09:46:30 PM »

I think the whining that caused this ruling needs to be silenced. This can only be bad for the game.

happyjosiah · « **Reply #14 on:** August 04, 2009, 09:47:57 PM »

Hand limits are a clunky solution to something that's not really THAT much of a problem. We certainly have a lot more diversity in decks these days than in the FBN days. Fix it with cards, not rules.

lightningninja · « **Reply #15 on:** August 04, 2009, 09:48:54 PM »

Alex, And you are basing your opinion that it was whining that changed the rule on what again?

I don't remember a single person complaining about speed camp. I know Bryon came up to me and said that the playtesters just didn't like a combo that could work in as few as 2-3 turns and stop EVERYTHING used by your opponent. They decided it because they thought it was good, not because the public whined.

Vasbear · « **Reply #16 on:** August 04, 2009, 09:49:12 PM »

personaly i love the move

Draw 3
Hur back form set aside with Feast of Trumpits place 4 draw 8,
then RA with Hur draw 7 more.

8+3+4+7=22

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #17 on:** August 04, 2009, 09:53:13 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on August 04, 2009, 09:48:54 PM

Alex, And you are basing your opinion that it was whining that changed the rule on what again?

I don't remember a single person complaining about speed camp. I know Bryon came up to me and said that the playtesters just didn't like a combo that could work in as few as 2-3 turns and stop EVERYTHING used by your opponent. They decided it because they thought it was good, not because the public whined.

Name the number one most complained archetype:
Speed/TGT

People complaining about something not that broken is what caused this ruling. Enough people got upset about losing to the decks and began to complain. When the card solutions that cactus made were made without effect, drastic measures were taken.

Makes sense to me.

redemption99 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 04, 2009, 09:56:15 PM »

hur +gifts isn't that useful anymore.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #19 on:** August 04, 2009, 09:58:15 PM »

Yes it is. Is it that often a speed deck has 11 enhancements in its hand? Rare. It's not that hard to play 1 card to make Hur work perfectly again.

redemption99 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:01:00 PM »

yea it is that often, 8 cards + 3 for drawing and maybe even +2 more from provsions or something (assuming an all green deck), that only leaves room for 3 cards so there would be no point to even use hur/gifts.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #21 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:08:38 PM »

I still can't tell from anything anyone's said: Have there been actual rule changes applied yet? Are the 2nd player draw three or hand limit rules in effect?

redemption99 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:10:53 PM »

Rob has stated http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17095.0 <here that the changes are effect for all tournaments from august to december and then he will get feedback from hosts and find out how the new changes affected gameplay and if they work good they will be kept.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #23 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:20:41 PM »

Oh wow, thanks. Dunno how I missed that.

I like all the ideas except that I think the hand limit is just a little too low. IMO, 18 would be perfect, for the reason of Hur + Gifts.

The Schaef · « **Reply #24 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:22:06 PM »

I see also that the Gates of Heck controversy was cut short pretty quickly.

News:

Author Topic: Rule changes discussion (Specifically hand limit) (Read 17412 times)

TheMarti

Lamborghini_diablo

Vasbear

The Schaef