Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Playgroup and Tournament Central => Redemption® Official Tournaments => Topic started by: Red Dragon Thorn on August 04, 2009, 07:30:12 PM
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Rob, (and Playtesters/Other influential people)
I love the idea of a hand limit, I know numbers were being bandied about from 15 to 30,
I kind of like 16, it's a good number assuming that your hand started the turn at 8, but what if I drew 2 cards off a horses on my Defence, or worse yet played Emperor Vit, Horses, Heavy taxes and ended up at 15 cards? I simply don't draw my opening 3 a fundamental part of redemption forever?
Additionally consider Tables of the Law, now I can only draw and additional 6 cards.
I would like to see either a slightly higher number, or better yet the following:
"Your hand can never exceed the twice the size that it will be discarded to and the end of the turn."
This offers some flexibility,
If I have Tables down I can go to 20 cards
If I block with Death and Hades I've limited you to 14 cards,
This can only encourage those cards to see play which is something that redemption has been striving for the past few years.
Thanks,
John
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I agree. There should be stipulations based on things like Tables and Death and Hades. Tables already "rewards" you by allowing you 2 more cards in your hand. The double rule would help those cards continue to be used.
~Marti
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Not a bad idea... although I don't like not drawing 3 cards at the start of my turn.
Stupid Speed Camp... ::)
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Agreed, thats my main problem with the rule also is the start of turn draw, perhaps if the rule was do not draw cards for special abilities if your hand is over X cards.
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I know most will disagree with my opinion, but I do not like, in the least bit, the new hand limit rule.
I do support the second player draws 3. I guess...
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IMO, any single card combo should allow you to draw the full amount of cards. Therefore, I believe the limit should be 18.
8 cards in hand + 3 card draw at beginning of turn + Hur with gifts (7 cards) = 18 cards
I truly feel that Hur + Gifts is a valid play and should not be penalized...
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What ruling is this? What'd I miss...?
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I think 20 would be a better number for maximum hand size. It is nice and round.
"Your hand can never exceed the twice the size that it will be discarded to and the end of the turn."
I think something like this is too lawyerish. A simple solid number is what I like.
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IMO, any single card combo should allow you to draw the full amount of cards. Therefore, I believe the limit should be 18.
8 cards in hand + 3 card draw at beginning of turn + Hur with gifts (7 cards) = 18 cards
I truly feel that Hur + Gifts is a valid play and should not be penalized...
What about love at first sight? Should the cap be at 19?
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why hand limit? just play rain becomes dust. period. end of story. That would stop a speed deck on a dime
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Rain becomes Dust has been available for three tournament seasons. If it was the answer to speed there would not have been a need to test the hand limit as a rule.
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I don't like the idea of a hand limit. I think we should just increase the risk of having a large amount of cards in your hand. Also, the discard rule works well as it is: if you draw your whole deck, you have to discard your whole deck.
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I think this is only a concern due to Speed Camp which has been around for three years. The only reason it is being discussed is because it won and won big. fact is this deck does get a bad draw and has only won two tournaments all year. I think we need to try out the secnod player draws three and see how speed camp works this coming year. With Nathan, Darius' Decree, and Stalks of Flax the deck took another small hit. Also with a new dominant there are now 6 worthy good dominants, and only five confusions. I do not think it is something to change an entire ruling over that will stand until changed again.
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I think the whining that caused this ruling needs to be silenced. This can only be bad for the game.
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Hand limits are a clunky solution to something that's not really THAT much of a problem. We certainly have a lot more diversity in decks these days than in the FBN days. Fix it with cards, not rules.
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Alex, And you are basing your opinion that it was whining that changed the rule on what again?
I don't remember a single person complaining about speed camp. I know Bryon came up to me and said that the playtesters just didn't like a combo that could work in as few as 2-3 turns and stop EVERYTHING used by your opponent. They decided it because they thought it was good, not because the public whined.
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personaly i love the move
Draw 3
Hur back form set aside with Feast of Trumpits place 4 draw 8,
then RA with Hur draw 7 more.
8+3+4+7=22
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Alex, And you are basing your opinion that it was whining that changed the rule on what again?
I don't remember a single person complaining about speed camp. I know Bryon came up to me and said that the playtesters just didn't like a combo that could work in as few as 2-3 turns and stop EVERYTHING used by your opponent. They decided it because they thought it was good, not because the public whined.
Name the number one most complained archetype:
Speed/TGT
People complaining about something not that broken is what caused this ruling. Enough people got upset about losing to the decks and began to complain. When the card solutions that cactus made were made without effect, drastic measures were taken.
Makes sense to me.
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hur +gifts isn't that useful anymore.
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Yes it is. Is it that often a speed deck has 11 enhancements in its hand? Rare. It's not that hard to play 1 card to make Hur work perfectly again.
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yea it is that often, 8 cards + 3 for drawing and maybe even +2 more from provsions or something (assuming an all green deck), that only leaves room for 3 cards so there would be no point to even use hur/gifts.
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I still can't tell from anything anyone's said: Have there been actual rule changes applied yet? Are the 2nd player draw three or hand limit rules in effect?
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Rob has stated http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17095.0 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17095.0) <here that the changes are effect for all tournaments from august to december and then he will get feedback from hosts and find out how the new changes affected gameplay and if they work good they will be kept.
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Oh wow, thanks. Dunno how I missed that. :P I like all the ideas except that I think the hand limit is just a little too low. IMO, 18 would be perfect, for the reason of Hur + Gifts.
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I see also that the Gates of Heck controversy was cut short pretty quickly.
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how so scheaf?
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Deck limit I'm assuming. :P
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Deck limit does not affect the GoH combos that much, just a few that ppl were suggesting
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But he referred to the "Gates of Heck" controversy, which I'm assuming means the biggest one.
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Here are my thoughts on the main changes:
2) This is really nice. Great idea!
3) And there was much rejoicing!
6) Finally! I hate me drawing 1 LS, my opponent drawing the hopper, and him going first with a coin flip.
7) YIPPEE!
8 ) I think this will work for the better. While this stops my simple draw 10 combo, (3 + Pentecost + 1st Fruits), I think this will help curb multi speed. As a member of MASK, I like this.
9) I guess Gates of Hell caused this. I don't really like it, but there MUST be a combo I'm not thinking of that this prevents. Any ideas?
The rule I wished were also announced:
10) Pre prep phase. However, with the introduction of the 2nd player draw, this becomes slightly less important. I still want it though.
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Right now I'm most interested in #1: What's the new promo anyone?
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Does this rule only apply to T1? Cause I can see this becoming a HUGE problem in T2...
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Why would it be a HUGE problem in type 2?
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When was the last time a Speed deck won nationals...clearly its not that big of a problem. And it will still work with a hand limit anyways. People need to stop complaining and just enjoy the game win or lose...its not all about winning!
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I'm not whining, just stating.
I said I could see it becoming a problem. That kills some potential 5x speed card combos. Yeah, you gotta be more deliberate, whatever.
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I'm not whining, just stating.
I said I could see it becoming a problem. That kills some potential 5x speed card combos. Yeah, you gotta be more deliberate, whatever.
Well I wasn't really talking about your comment or anyones for that matter...just the general whine about speed decks (similar to that of the general whine about TGT). I'm just saying in general people need to just have fun playing the game and realize that this game especially, its not all about winning. Its about having fun with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, and possibly learning about the Bible through the cards in the game (who would have known all the names for Satan?). Its hard to express tone with typing, I was not attacking anyone. :)
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Gates of Hell is worthless now.
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Also congratulations in large part to Mark Underwood, whose work on the Teams format in 2008 was so well-done that it was mostly-duplicated this year and eventually became the sanctioned format.
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I like all of the ideas presented by Rob a lot except the hand limit. I agree with RDT that 16 might be a bit on the low side. However, perhaps a good compromise would be to leave it at 16, but the one time you can go over is during your draw phase. I believe for consistency's sake, we don't say that a player with 14 cards in hand (from drawing on his previous block) can only draw two during his next draw phase. This eliminates the huge drawing combos, but doesn't complicate the draw phase.
Anyone else in favor of this?
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I like all of the ideas presented by Rob a lot except the hand limit. I agree with RDT that 16 might be a bit on the low side. However, perhaps a good compromise would be to leave it at 16, but the one time you can go over is during your draw phase. I believe for consistency's sake, we don't say that a player with 14 cards in hand (from drawing on his previous block) can only draw two during his next draw phase. This eliminates the huge drawing combos, but doesn't complicate the draw phase.
Anyone else in favor of this?
I am in favor of not making rules to stop deck strategies but to create cards.
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But Justin, now you are saying you can have more in your opening draw but not more than 16 normally. How do you explain that to starting players? Uhm so you can have over 16 when you draw first phase but you can't go over that in battle phase...No thank you. How about we leave it alone for this season and see if speed camp is prevalant. I see this going two ways, the first one being people will see the deck that won nationals and duplicate it like always. The problem with that is that you must know when to do the combo and how to play it. Also the more games that plays the higher chance it has of not getting what it needs on the opening draw to turn 3. The second way this might go is people seeing my deck and how it sytopped it and incorporate some of those strategies into their decks. Also with another good dominant sin in the camp is not going to be as effective. Just let it be for now. If people are getting stomped by speed combo decks then something can be done, but just because of one deck shutting down it's opponent on the first few turns is nothing to change the rules about. That deck took Clift three years to make for crying out loud! Let it work for another year. In the next set I am sure a lost soul or two might come out that hurts it even more...
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But Justin, now you are saying you can have more in your opening draw but not more than 16 normally. How do you explain that to starting players? Uhm so you can have over 16 when you draw first phase but you can't go over that in battle phase...No thank you. How about we leave it alone for this season and see if speed camp is prevalant. I see this going two ways, the first one being people will see the deck that won nationals and duplicate it like always. The problem with that is that you must know when to do the combo and how to play it. Also the more games that plays the higher chance it has of not getting what it needs on the opening draw to turn 3. The second way this might go is people seeing my deck and how it sytopped it and incorporate some of those strategies into their decks. Also with another good dominant sin in the camp is not going to be as effective. Just let it be for now. If people are getting stomped by speed combo decks then something can be done, but just because of one deck shutting down it's opponent on the first few turns is nothing to change the rules about. That deck took Clift three years to make for crying out loud! Let it work for another year. In the next set I am sure a lost soul or two might come out that hurts it even more...
Lawfuldog supports this post.
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How do you explain that to starting players?
How about "If you have 16 or more cards in your hands, you may not draw cards outside of the draw phase." This essentially puts a hand cap, while still not breaking basic game functions.
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Typically I do not like changing from the status quo myself, but Rob did say these rules are in effect on a trial basis. Sometimes you just need to put a crimp in a strategy so powerful it utterly dominates (like Gabe did with Clift's deck and like Chris Bany did with Ron Sias' deck a few years ago, which brought about the side battle change).
I also agree though that more players could have prepared for this strategy. Obviously the one who did (Tyler) handled it pretty easily. Had I gone to Nationals, I was definitely planning to build a deck specifically aimed at stopping a Speed Camp deck if I heard there was one being used. It would be fairly simple with Rain Becomes Dust/Hidden Treasures/Household Idols/Confusion of Mind x3 (most of which are useful in any deck).
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How do you explain that to starting players?
How about "If you have 16 or more cards in your hands, you may not draw cards outside of the draw phase." This essentially puts a hand cap, while still not breaking basic game functions.
With all of the elaborate erratas and 'play as' for cards, Redemption doesn't need anymore specific rulings unless it gets to the point where it's absolutely necessary.
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Tyler,
I'm not exactly supporting the change, but rather operating under the assumption that it's going to happen and I would just like to keep from messing with the draw phase.
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There either needs to be a limit set with no exceptions or side rules or no limit and just leave it how it is. There will be complaints either way and there is no stopping it. You can't please everyone! :P
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Tyler,
I'm not exactly supporting the change, but rather operating under the assumption that it's going to happen and I would just like to keep from messing with the draw phase
Ok I gotcha.
But I will make another post putting my theory up on this new rule change experiment thing.
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EJB,
How difficult is it to say "Your hand size cannot exceed 16 unless it occurs during your draw phase" ? As far as I know, the ony card abilities that mess with the draw phase are the "Opponent may not draw cards next turn" cards, which wouldn't affect this anyway.
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EJB,
How difficult is it to say "Your hand size cannot exceed 16 unless it occurs during your draw phase" ? As far as I know, the ony card abilities that mess with the draw phase are the "Opponent may not draw cards next turn" cards, which wouldn't affect this anyway.
I guess your right, its just that its not uncommon for something to become overcomplicated in this game and I think it should be avoided in this case you know?
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You are very much correct about the overcomplicating things deal (ask your dad about the Protection of Angels vs Twelve Fingered Giant discussion :P) It is a trial run though, so I while I'm not entirely in support of it could end up being good for the game overall.
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<--------- disgusted right now.
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What ruling is this? What'd I miss...?
I'm with Lamborghini. What did we miss? I haven't heard until just now that the playtesters are considering adding a limit to the number of cards you can draw.
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What ruling is this? What'd I miss...?
I'm with Lamborghini. What did we miss? I haven't heard until just now that the playtesters are considering adding a limit to the number of cards you can draw.
Not considering, it's officially instated until December.
Read more here (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17095.0)
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I like the changes for the most part. What I think people are missing is that these rules are only in effect until December and on a trial basis: if they obviously suck like some people are saying they will, then they'll go away. Simple as that. Play with it for four months.
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I support these new rulings whole-heartedly even though it means I can't use the deck I was going to be using.
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Was that the super-secret GoH combo of yours? :P
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Nah, that combo is going to get ruled against too quickly for me to rely on.
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Lol, good call. :D
My opinion on the hand limit rule: I think it should be 18 (I think that's a clean number: to be able to draw +10 from your original hand.) with the exception of the draw phase like Justin proposed.
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When was the last time a Speed deck won nationals
Type 2 2-Player of 2009
Type 1 multi player of 2008 and 2007
There's probably others I'm missing. Fact is speed is the dominant strategy right now and it isn't just because people complain about it.
I don't like exceptions. Make the hand limit a solid number no matter what. Cut and dry, clear as crystal. No arguments.
This post was brought to you by the number 20.
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Didn't Lightningninja win T1-MP this year with a speed deck?
EDIT: Yes, in fact here it is (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17008.msg266791#msg266791).
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Speed is the dominant strategy because so many people play it, not necessarily because it is the best.
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And because it's relatively easy to build.
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If by esay to build you mean easy to get off internet decklists, then yes.
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Speed is the dominant strategy because so many people play it, not necessarily because it is the best.
If it wasn't strong people wouldn't play it at high level tournaments. "Because everyone uses it" is not what makes it dominant. The fact that it is strong and leads to many tournament wins is what makes it dominant.
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Well other than the damage caused to Speed in general, does anyone see any other negative impacts of this rule change?
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I don't see any negative effects at all. Speed gets nerfed a little bit? That's positive in my opinion.
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I am not denying it's quality. There are plenty of really good decks though. Speed is dominant because it is the one that is played.
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I am not denying it's quality. There are plenty of really good decks though. Speed is dominant because it is the one that is played.
Saying that it is dominant because everyone uses it is denying its quality. The reason people use it is because of its quality. Its quality is what makes it dominant, not that so many people use it.
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I'd disagree there. So many people use it because they think it is the only thing that wins, or because Gabe or Justin or whoever won with it.
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I like having a hand limit of 16 cards. I would prefer the limit to be "double whatever you have to discard down to" because it makes cards like Tables of the Law, and Death & Hades more interesting. But I think it will be a great thing to test out for a few months.
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I like having a hand limit of 16 cards. I would prefer the limit to be "double whatever you have to discard down to" because it makes cards like Tables of the Law, and Death & Hades more interesting. But I think it will be a great thing to test out for a few months.
+1 It should definitely be 20 for Tables. It might actually make TotL be added to some new decks!
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I like the idea of a set number for hand size. Allow it to fluctuate based on other cards makes it harder to keep track of and leads to other messy situations.
I can also tell you that Cactus is not trying to kill speed. I played T1-MP at Nationals and had the pleasure of being paired at a table with Rob "I am Cactus Games" Anderson. He was playing his own version of a speed deck. That's right folks. Rob Anderson plays speed. ;D
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So the hand limit is always 16, then? Not double your hand limit (like with Tables of the Law)?
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I can also tell you that Cactus is not trying to kill speed. I played T1-MP at Nationals and had the pleasure of being paired at a table with Rob "I am Cactus Games" Anderson. He was playing his own version of a speed deck. That's right folks. Rob Anderson plays speed. Grin
If that isn't the reason, I wonder what is?
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I dont like hand limit idea. I think it is punishing too many good decks. The counters to these decks should come through people playing against the strategies and not through handcuffing the "dominant Decks" through Game rules.
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Gifts of the magi and the amount of drawing in Redemption is broken, thank you Rob for responding. I also like the other rules too (is there still going to be type one multi?).
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Gifts of the magi and the amount of drawing in Redemption is broken, thank you Rob for responding. I also like the other rules too (is there still going to be type one multi?).
Now that they've fixed the worst of the broken drawing, T1-MP may see a bit of a renaissance. :)
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Seriously. I'm not sure if I'm running speed anymore... although to be honest, Darius' Decree and the new cards stopped me more than the 14 hand limit.
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Seriously. I'm not sure if I'm running speed anymore... although to be honest, Darius' Decree and the new cards stopped me more than the 14 hand limit.
16...
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Seriously. I'm not sure if I'm running speed anymore... although to be honest, Darius' Decree and the new cards stopped me more than the 14 hand limit.
For real, in a 4 player game, who is going to want to set aside all their Heroes with Pentecost when 3 other players could potentially flip DD? DD alone makes T1 MP so much better. I may just start buying up DDs and handing them out to RLKs... ::)
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Fix it with Cards not with rules. hand limits are not the best solution. Especially to a deck that is no where near tested enough to see if it is broken.
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time will tell the tale, will it not?
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I don't think the reason for the rule change is whether or not a certain deck is broken. I believe the reason behind the new hand limit rule is that there are decks possible that go against the spirit of the game.
If fun and fellowship is the goal, it's no fun and promotes very little fellowship to have any deck play solitaire for an extended period of time while the opponent doesn't get to do anything. There are a variety of different combo decks that use a draw engine to accomplish this goal. I can't speak for Rob or the playtesters but I don't think their goal is to kill any deck or category of decks. They simply want these decks to exist in a manner that encourages fun & fellowship in the game. Limiting the draw engine might be the solution to accomplish that.
I like the rule changes, including the cap on hand size. That's coming from someone who many would say is a "speed deck player". Give it a chance with an open mind. You might just find that it's a good thing. :)
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i am all for open mindedness however i agree with crustpope
fix it with cards not rules
btw darius' decree is amazing! this is a great example of how to affect the game due to card creation.
create a new death and hades card that affects drawing limit and cant be discarded maybe?
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i am all for open mindedness however i agree with crustpope
fix it with cards not rules
btw darius' decree is amazing! this is a great example of how to affect the game due to card creation.
create a new death and hades card that affects drawing limit and cant be discarded maybe?
Yeah, maybe create an Artifact that prevents your opponent from having more than 16 cards in their hand or something.
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An artifact might be okay if there were a way for it not to take up an artifact slot, but...
I really like the idea of a new Death & Hades though.
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Make a fortress. That's been the answer to everything thus far.
Aocp abuse
CTB abuse
Splash Defense
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the truth of the matter is if you think about it...a speed limit was put in place. Speed still works its just a little slower. Say speed decks used to be 70 MPH...now they are like 60. I'm going to continue to play my speed deck with the new rule and see if it still works...I bet it does! ;)
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Like we said, t-1 isn't affected at all. Type 2 can't abuse 5x (insert drawing card) anymore. That's about as far as it goes.
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Like we said, t-1 isn't affected at all.
YAY! Well, at least not until everyone complains more that it should be lowered haha.
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Yeah. I ran your deck and didn't ever go above 13 in hand. In fact, I can't recall ever getting to 16 with a speed deck. Probably because I never used Hur + Gifts + Love at First Sight + Coat of Many Colors all in one RA
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T1 MP will be affected though. A player who starts with 8, draws 3 on their turn, and 3-4 for one of the Feasts is not going to be able to rip off a Mahari/Claudia/ET combo with Words/Reach/Book/L@FS, which I think is a good thing.
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Darn, t-1 multi is going to change. But we all loved it?
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T1 MP will be affected though. A player who starts with 8, draws 3 on their turn, and 3-4 for one of the Feasts is not going to be able to rip off a Mahari/Claudia/ET combo with Words/Reach/Book/L@FS, which I think is a good thing.
;)
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T1 MP will be affected though. A player who starts with 8, draws 3 on their turn, and 3-4 for one of the Feasts is not going to be able to rip off a Mahari/Claudia/ET combo with Words/Reach/Book/L@FS, which I think is a good thing.
I still beg to differ because of the Preparation Phase...I draw 3 (11 cards in my hand). 75% of my deck is cards that can be played in the preparation phase. All I have to do is play 4 cards (hand at 7) and go Mahari, claudia, ET play reach, words, and hozai (hand 16) and voila! I drew 9 cards, didn't have to discard any, and stayed within the rules. I guess only time will tell but just the way I am seeing it this rule will only have a minor effect on T1, namely the drawing will instead span 3 turns rather than one or two.
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If fun and fellowship is the goal, it's no fun and promotes very little fellowship to have any deck play solitaire for an extended period of time while the opponent doesn't get to do anything.
Says the man who defends Pre-block ignore and TGT. ;)
Solitaire is the nature of type 2 It comes with the territory. Occasionally you get locked out and those are the minefields that you have to dodge. If its a bad thing, then fix it with cards like cactus has done many times in the past.
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T2 isn't always solitaire...the only way you can possibly know with 100% certainty if you are able to rescue a LS or not on a given turn is if you know exactly what your opponent has in his hand...oh wait... ::)
Have I ever mentioned how powerful I think U&T is? ;)
*Waits for Schaef* <.< >.>
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Don't look at me, I think everyone has a valid point here.
Oh wait, I'm unreasonable in discussion. What I meant to say is, everyone has aspects of their thinking that are WROOOOOONG!!!!!
Seriously, I prefer to fix the game with cards and I think doing so has generated some pretty good sets the last four years. But I also think that players traditionally have been slow in picking up counters and using them to hammer the metagame (FBN, I'm looking at you). So it's ideal, but at what point does it stop being pragmatic?
Anyway, I didn't really have a hand in the "major" changes to come down this week, they're enacted on a trial basis, and they don't affect the decks I build, so I'm content to sit back and watch the whole thing play out.
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Oh wait, I'm unreasonable in discussion. What I meant to say is, everyone has aspects of their thinking that are WROOOOOONG!!!!!
*giggle*
Anyway, yeah this has not seemed to matter much in T1-2 player. Yesterday when playing with the new rules, I reduced my hand as much as possible pre-battle, activated gifts, went out with Hur and drew 7. When block, I was losing, so I dropped coat of many colors, Transfiguration (and didn't use it's SA), prosperity, and love at first sight all while still maintaining initiative (though I only drew 7 from the Love at First Sight). At this point I did the book of hozai, words, reach thing, basically just drawing a card to replace the one I played each time. Still drained my remaining deck in one turn just fine.
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Still drained my remaining deck in one turn just fine.
That's what I like to hear :)
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The thing it's going to effect in multi is when your OPPONENTS use their set asides, like feast and pentacost. So you can only draw so much for that.
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why are we putting a limit on how many cards you can have in a deck?
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So that tournament hosts don't have to sit and check in a 1000 card deck.... Also because there are a few potentially broken combos which can be done with huge decks.
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I won't check in a 1000 card deck. If someone hands me one, I will accidently drop them all over the floor.
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Man there goes my deck that could draw 11 cards while I was blocking. That was fun.