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If you want byes, post a better reason. Byes are opposed to the reason for having a top cut - forcing players to play other players doing well that day. To give byes for swiss performance is to negate that.

Byes help negate the major downside to doing top cut without best 2 out of 3. Those who point out that a person who went undefeated in Swiss could end up knocked out in the first round with a bad draw have a good point. Giving a more tangible benefit than "played the worst of the best" helps mitigate that.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 19, 2013, 12:47:44 AM

If you want byes, post a better reason. Byes are opposed to the reason for having a top cut - forcing players to play other players doing well that day. To give byes for swiss performance is to negate that.

Byes help negate the major downside to doing top cut without best 2 out of 3. Those who point out that a person who went undefeated in Swiss could end up knocked out in the first round with a bad draw have a good point. Giving a more tangible benefit than "played the worst of the best" helps mitigate that.

Suck it up if you lose because you got a bad draw. Bad draws are equally important in any game but you perceive more value for those in the top cut because they tangible eliminate you from the tournament. I had a bad draw against you round 1 last year and it ultimately eliminated me from placing contention but because I wasn't able to assign arbitrary value to the game at the time, it doesn't feel the same.

The bad draw issue is a Redemption issue, not a top cut issue. It's the reason we all would prefer 2/3. However, that's not a time tenable solution.

I'm going to arbitrary say lets spend the next week supporting what we think is the best way to top cut, and I will send the proposal to Roy next weekend.

what about double Elim after the swiss rounds?

Because voting creates the illusion that the winning of the vote should be the format used (which will not be the case because players don't take any logistical considerations into their vote).

So how else do you propose it's decided? People argue about it for a week and then you choose whatever you like best? Seems legit.

I still think that a double elim. top cut would be better.fixes a bad draw thing. and it would be easy to match up the top cut.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 19, 2013, 05:08:52 PM

Because voting creates the illusion that the winning of the vote should be the format used (which will not be the case because players don't take any logistical considerations into their vote).

So how else do you propose it's decided? People argue about it for a week and then you choose whatever you like best? Seems legit.

Come on, Chris, Olijar has experience with top cut from outside Redemption and is one to do way more research than almost any other of the people on the forums. I understand that you made the first attempt to get Top Cut implemented, but Olijar was the first to take charge of exactly what that would look like. The important thing is we DO have a governor and not a vote, because Olijar knows what will work better than the masses. I do think it's important to get their opinion, but ultimately I think we should have one person make the choice. Roy or Rob would be obvious, but I think Olijar is far more informed than them on this matter.

Just do regular single-elim top 8/16 cut. Stop trying to muck it up with too much for the first year, people.

I believe that most if not all of you who played/play MTG have been involved in a similar swiss/top-cut scenario.  If anyone has participated in a "Pro-tour" event perhaps that would be a great source of definitive info.  Have you seen the official procedures that MTG uses?

Disregarding the qualifying requirements for Pro Tour to apply to Redemption scenario, I can share below a link that the MTG pro players in my area have given me as reference:

http://community.wizards.com/wiki/Tournament_Organizer%27s_Handbook:_Section_C

Your plans are similar.  I know you just want OUR "modified swiss system" to cater to the nature of Redemption.  That itself is a heroic feat since we need to finish T1 2P in just one day.

Note, however, that if you did strictly adhere to MTG's similar methods, then you would need more than a day to actually implement top cut (check out Pro Tour's tournament structure on Wikipedia).

Your mission is simple:
1.  Propose the best, simple, plan that you think would work best for T1 2P that ends at or as close as possible to 8pm.
2.  Ensure that the majority of participating T1 2P players will be happy about the system.  Always expect a minority to have negative opinions.  Should top cut ensue, I'm planning paid unofficial booster drafts or even sealed deck rounds for those who will be eliminated but still want to play some games -- with an inviting prize support for the top three winners (depending in how much is saved in the 'pot').
3.  Be not too uptight with your decision-making --- just pray for best guidance, and employ what you sincerely feel and know will be the best possible experimental scenario for T1 2P play-round system at Nats 2013.

I have not myself personally experienced modified swiss, but am witnessing how it happens every Friday when I demo the game at the regular gaming store to MTG, YGH, and Pkmn players.

Be at peace.

Thanks for all your thoughts and efforts --- and Alex, for your leadership.

God bless all of you for your love of the game, and your undying sincerity.

you could just do it like a normal tournament at top cut. just a smaller version.

Alex, you mean single elimination for the top cut portion after swiss, right?

How does everyone feel about only being able to use one deck during the top cut portion of the tournament?