Author Topic: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input (Read 25039 times)

Master KChief · « **Reply #50 on:** March 26, 2013, 01:04:34 PM »

I certainly hope so, as I will be at a different world championship that very same weekend.

I would love to know what is going on.

The event coverage for the top cut 'feature match' doesn't even have to be done with Youtube if you don't want to get that complex...just a simple write up by a colorful commentator here in a thread of the exciting moments during the match, turning points, powerplays, etc would be more than worth reading.

lp670sv · « **Reply #51 on:** March 26, 2013, 01:08:56 PM »

Guys you're gonna have to stop talking about incorporating all of this technology in to Nats, you're really making me want to attend and help out with all this.

Master KChief · « **Reply #52 on:** March 26, 2013, 01:13:42 PM »

Lp just volunteered. PROJECT STREAM FINAL MATCH A-GO-GO.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #53 on:** March 26, 2013, 01:14:51 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 01:08:56 PM

Guys you're gonna have to stop talking about incorporating all of this technology in to Nats, you're really making me want to attend and help out with all this.

You do the technical, I'll provide the entertainment and name drop you many times. "Underwood is going for the Alec Joy Soul of the game here".

lp670sv · « **Reply #54 on:** March 26, 2013, 01:16:46 PM »

Really though, this could be done. I'll get on some research to what level of tech we would need to de certain things like live streaming it both in the church and maybe to the general public as well.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #55 on:** March 26, 2013, 01:17:35 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 01:16:46 PM

Really though, this could be done. I'll get on some research to what level of tech we would need to de certain things like live streaming it both in the church and maybe to the general public as well.

We could use twitch.tv to stream. I'm not familiar with the camera tech needed, etc though.

lp670sv · « **Reply #56 on:** March 26, 2013, 01:19:20 PM »

Most important step right now would be to make sure the church has internet. We can stream internally without it but not externally.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #57 on:** March 26, 2013, 01:20:24 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 01:19:20 PM

Most important step right now would be to make sure the church has internet. We can stream internally without it but not externally.

Even if you record it, we could at least youtube it.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #58 on:** March 26, 2013, 01:28:04 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on March 25, 2013, 11:51:39 PM

Or just go play MTG if that the game you really wish you were playing.

You got me on that one. I play both Redemption and MtG. There are definitely aspects of that game I think would benefit ours. For instance, mulligans, best 2 out of 3's, an actual removed from the game zone (and ways to target it), sideboards (only to an extent), ect.

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #59 on:** March 26, 2013, 01:41:35 PM »

i can't believe im doing this but if discussion is wanted i have the camera skills.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #60 on:** March 26, 2013, 01:53:01 PM »

Quote from: uthminister [BR] on March 26, 2013, 12:17:09 PM

We could even set up a watching room for players that are eliminated from Top Cut to see a feature match each round of Top Cut. That way they can see several rounds of high level play; learning some things and having fellowship while doing it. I for one would love to watch it, especially if there were some particularly talented color commentators talking about the plays and strategies as the game is happening.

I would love to do this. Can I get some sponsership (aka 360 dollars so far) to make the event?

Red · « **Reply #61 on:** March 26, 2013, 02:24:51 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 26, 2013, 12:18:05 PM

Quote from: Master KChief on March 26, 2013, 12:09:01 PM
Continuing on the non-secrecy tangent and going back to the over-the-tabletop cam, I would love to at least see the final match of top cut utilize this and put on a projector. It's a monumental moment, and everyone would be excited to watch it live.

If someone records Top Cut matches, Westy and I will commentate them for posting on Youtube (I don't even care that I'm volunteering him, he'll do it).

Quote from: uthminister [BR] on March 26, 2013, 12:17:09 PM
We could even set up a watching room for players that are eliminated from Top Cut to see a feature match each round of Top Cut. That way they can see several rounds of high level play; learning some things and having fellowship while doing it. I for one would love to watch it, especially if there were some particularly talented color commentators talking about the plays and strategies as the game is happening.

I would commentate assuming I am not playing.

I would also help commentate videos for posting on youtube if it could be done from a distance, you know to sort of add variety?

SirNobody · « **Reply #62 on:** March 26, 2013, 03:30:34 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 26, 2013, 11:02:56 AM

I suppose someone could modify the Excel spreadsheet to account for strength of schedule, but then a player really is punished for losing early and having to make up ground among weaker opponents; but how is that fair for top players who get matched up early?

A player that loses early will have a weaker strength of schedule but should have a stronger lost soul differential. A player that gets matched up against someone good early should have a weaker differential but will have a better strength of schedule. If we can find the right way to combine the two we should theoretically have a tiebreaker that is unaffected by the randomness of pairings.

Quote from: The Guardian on March 25, 2013, 11:29:08 PM

Let's say I'm undefeated going into Top Cut and I get the top seed. I play someone who lost a couple games (perhaps due to poor luck or poor draw) and ended up with the bottom seed. We play and I end up getting a poor draw, he has LS drought and I end up losing. So at that point I'm out of the tournament because I happened to get a poor draw at the wrong time?

This is why I feel it is very important that the top cut be run double elimination. Double elimination is kinda the compromise between best of three (which people seem to want but we simply don't have time for) and single elimination (which allows for no recourse in the case of a bad draw).

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #63 on:** March 26, 2013, 03:54:45 PM »

Double elimination is even more time prohibitive

SirNobody · « **Reply #64 on:** March 26, 2013, 04:23:21 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 26, 2013, 03:54:45 PM

Double elimination is even more time prohibitive

More time prohibitive than best of three? Definitely not. Double elimination adds one or two rounds to the number of rounds needed for the elimination bracket. Best of three adds one or two rounds to each round of the elimination bracket.

A 7 round swiss with a top 8 cut tournament would take 0-45 minutes longer than the current standard of a 10 round swiss tournament.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #65 on:** March 26, 2013, 04:27:44 PM »

Haven't read 95% of this thread. Ignore me if this has been answered. How do you deal with ties in an elimination tournament?

EDIT: By ties, I mean like my opponent and I have the same amount of rescued souls after 45 minutes. Who drops down to the lower bracket?

lp670sv · « **Reply #66 on:** March 26, 2013, 04:37:51 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on March 26, 2013, 04:23:21 PM

Hey,

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 26, 2013, 03:54:45 PM
Double elimination is even more time prohibitive

More time prohibitive than best of three? Definitely not. Double elimination adds one or two rounds to the number of rounds needed for the elimination bracket. Best of three adds one or two rounds to each round of the elimination bracket.

A 7 round swiss with a top 8 cut tournament would take 0-45 minutes longer than the current standard of a 10 round swiss tournament.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

It adds more time because you have to do more matches. Sitting down at a table and playing 3 games in a row you can just start one after the other, game ends next game begins. In double elimination you have to wait for everyone to be done and then redo matchups. The number of games are fewer but the actual time take is greater.

_JM_ · « **Reply #67 on:** March 26, 2013, 04:39:48 PM »

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on March 26, 2013, 04:27:44 PM

Haven't read 95% of this thread. Ignore me if this has been answered. How do you deal with ties in an elimination tournament?

EDIT: By ties, I mean like my opponent and I have the same amount of rescued souls after 45 minutes. Who drops down to the lower bracket?

Two options spring to mind - continue the game until the next rescue (sudden death OT, if you will), or you could do what we did at the Creation Open this past year and restart the game, play to the first soul. The sudden death one is probably the most natural and best flow - unless both players are locked out, of course. The second is extremely luck driven (as anyone witnessing the game from Creation where we had to do this can attest).

SirNobody · « **Reply #68 on:** March 26, 2013, 04:54:05 PM »

Hey,

Alex, I think the size of top cuts you suggested is a little bloated. The number of swiss rounds and the size of the top cut should insure any player with 1 or less loss at the end of swiss style gets into the top cut (while keeping the top cut as small as possible to minimize the time it takes), and should keep most of the rounds in the swiss portion of the event. Also the closer the cut off is to the break between point groupings the better (so that who gets into the top cut is more likely to be determined by wins and losses and not differential).

I'd suggest the following numbers:

24-32 Players - 5 Rounds Required (6 Rounds Preferred)
33-48 Players - 6 Rounds Required
49-64 Players - 6 Rounds Required (7 Rounds Preferred)
65-96 Players - 7 Rounds Required
97-128 Players - 7 Rounds Required (8 Rounds Preferred)
129-192 Players - 8 Rounds Required
193-256 Players - 8 Rounds Required (9 Rounds Preferred)

24-32 Players - 4 Players in the Top Cut
33-128 Players - 8 Players in the Top Cut
129-256 Players - 16 Players in the Top Cut

Top Cut doesn't really work all that well unless the field is fairly large, so the numbers are a little odd for less than 64 players. The Top 8 dividing line works out very well mathematically, so I might even prefer requiring an extra round of swiss for 129+ players and keeping the top cut at 8, but since it's unlikely we'll be seeing many tournaments that large it's not a very important issue.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #69 on:** March 26, 2013, 05:05:24 PM »

I'm all for Double Elim if we can work out timing issues. The nice thing about Top Cut is you're less likely to go to time each round, as there are fewer people playing. Another alternative is to do Top 16, and 4 rounds with Double Elim, which would give 1 (4-0) and 5 (3-1). You can play another round, which either gives us 1 5-0 and 2 4-1 (ideal) or 3 4-1 (messy because of tiebreakers), but that means we'll be playing 12 rounds, which is probably not worth it if we have such muddiness. We could decide tiebreakers by head to head, but with 6 people, that's unlikely to come to much of a resolution. We could decide tiebreakers by swiss, but again, with 7 6-1s and 8 5-2s, there'll still likely be ties. We could go by strength of schedule, but would that be entire schedule or just top cut schedule? There's also always lost soul differential. Ultimately, we have enough options where it shouldn't be a big deal, but deciding on which option to take would be tricky.

I prefer Alex's numbers to Tim's. Some 5-2s deserve to make cut, and they'll miss it with only top 8 at 128.

SirNobody · « **Reply #70 on:** March 26, 2013, 05:13:56 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 04:37:51 PM

It adds more time because you have to do more matches. Sitting down at a table and playing 3 games in a row you can just start one after the other, game ends next game begins. In double elimination you have to wait for everyone to be done and then redo matchups. The number of games are fewer but the actual time take is greater.

Scheduling is largely based on worst case scenario. Worst case scenario for double elimination with eight players is 225 minutes of game play. Worst case scenario for best of three with eight players is 405 minutes. Even if you're not looking at that, the winner of the tournament will play 4 or 5 games in a double elimination bracket. The winner of the tournament will play 6 to 9 games in a best of three bracket. In best of three you're playing 50% more games in sequence. That's not going to be faster.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

SirNobody · « **Reply #71 on:** March 26, 2013, 05:20:43 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Westy on March 26, 2013, 05:05:24 PM

Some 5-2s deserve to make cut

Why do you think that? With the system we use now most players are eliminated from contention when they reach two losses and that's two losses for the entire tournament not just "pre cut."

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Red · « **Reply #72 on:** March 26, 2013, 05:30:52 PM »

Losing twice shouldn't eliminate you from placing. It didnt at nationals.

SirNobody · « **Reply #73 on:** March 26, 2013, 05:33:57 PM »

Hey,

For dealing with ties in who makes the top cut and seeding order I would suggest:

1) Points (i.e. wins)
2) Lost Soul differential
3) Strength of Schedule (Sum of point totals for all opponents in the swiss rounds)
4) Highest place of an opponent they defeated.

For dealing with ties in elimination round games I would suggest:

Winning at timeout and Losing at timeout count as full win and full loss. A game that is tied at timeout would go into a short (3 rounds) "overtime" where the next soul rescues wins.

A game that ends in a true tie or is still a tie after the overtime I could see being broken in one of three ways. (1) Sudden death game to one. (2) The player that rescued the first soul in the game wins. (3) The player that rescued the most recent soul in the game wins. Having played several sudden death games to one I can say they are ridiculous and not a good way to determine a winner. Of the other two options the first soul seems more random (who drew souls first, who went first, etc) so I think my preference would be for the player that most recently rescued a soul (which would also be easier to remember than who rescued the first soul). And if a game ends 0-0 with neither player rescuing a soul then neither player deserves to advance, so flip a coin

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #74 on:** March 26, 2013, 05:51:30 PM »

I had a big long post basically talking about how tough Martin's schedule has been the past two years, but then my internet gave out. Basically I said X-96 should be top 8, while after that should be top 16, which will only effect MN nationals.

News:

Author Topic: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input (Read 25039 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk