Cactus Game Design Message Boards

33-64 players: 6 rounds
65-128 players: 7 rounds
Following the completion of the Swiss rounds, a top cut will commence.

In regards to non-top cut players still playing Swiss, I find it pretty pointless.

That's one of the things I like best about the system...if you don't make top cut you've got some extra time to hang out.

1) The time limits are longer, which restricts us from being able to effectively have best two out of three implemented. From what I've seen/heard the average game of MTG is 15-20 minutes; is that correct?

2) Every player has access to the best cards. I may be wrong about this, but I know that in some CCGs there are certain cards that are worth hundreds/thousands of dollars, which leads me to believe that only a relatively few players have access to them. In Redemption, anyone who has the money to make it to Nats, is easily able to afford any of the best cards in the game. This (in my mind) leads to more luck-based win potential, as a historically weaker opponent has a better chance to beat a historically stronger opponent due to luck of the draw.

3) The LS differential tie-breakers. I have no idea how ties are broken in other CCGs, but the idea that top-cut inclusion/rankings will inevitably have to involve LS differential (As Alex mentioned, a 16-player top cut with a 128 player field with no ties will have 7 6-1 players and 21 5-2 players). Even if we are "fortunate" enough to have 8 5-2 players with clearly better differentials than the other 13, we still have to rank those 8. Also, LS differential is really a bad indicator of skill in a game where 2 of the LSs are essentially free if you can draw the Big Two, and I was very happy when we made the primary ranking method be head to head, reducing the importance of differential. But the player who misses top cut because of 1 LS (and maybe has a much better strength of schedule than the guy above him to boot) is probably not going to enjoy the "time off".

4) Fun and fellowship of the game. From everything I've heard from former/current MTG/YGO/Pokemon players, what Redemption may lack in mechanics it more than makes up for in fellowship. Other than the predominantly Christian values of the majority of the player base, I'm not sure exactly what it is that makes this true. But I don't think it's too farfetched to think that it is partially because of the swiss style that allows everyone to participate until the end. The idea of being able to watch the final matches sounds good, but unless we get cameras at each of the top tables that can be ported to screens outside of the playing area, no top player that I know will want people watching them live. And even so, they probably don't want to reveal their decks to other players in the top cut who finish early.

As a top player based on Nationals results in recent years, let me be the first to go out and say it: Keeping your deck secret once the tournament starts is really silly and we need to get out of this habit. It's arguably worse for the fellowship than the top cut would ever be in my opinion. Who cares if people watch your game and know your deck? If your deck is winning due to secrecy, it might not be that good (hate to say it but it's true). I get it for combo decks, but let's be honest, every round past round 4 or 5 if you are doing well, you know what your opponent is going to play.

I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM

I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

For example, at the T2 only I was able to gather info about Kirk's T2 only deck (partially because I had had many discussions with MJB regarding a similar deck, partially because I sat near him for many matches, and partially because Kirk always has some kind of combo deck for which there are several counters). Thus, when I knew that the only logical person I would be playing is Kirk, I knew that I wanted to use the deck with both CwD and Nazareth. True, it didn't end up helping me win, but it certainly helped me stall, and if my offense had included just 2 cards that I didn't, I would have probably (by Kirk's admission) beaten him easily.

I realize that it is difficult to keep your deck completely secret from all opponents, partially because of the fun and fellowship leading to discussions that may leak certain combos, but I know it is often best to avoid letting your deck contents leak, so that your opponent can't predict what you have.

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM

I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

You can switch decks from round to round. This plays more of a factor in T2 than T1 in my experience. T2 combo decks are a big threat and if you know your next opponent is playing a combo deck you may switch for your alternative deck with more anti-combo cards.

I probably play combo decks more than any other player in the game at big tournaments and I think that it is important to keep whatever small level of secrecy concerning your deck that you can hold onto throughout the tournament. Every time I use a combo people talk about it in between rounds so it isn't completely secret but it is nice when not all of my future opponents know exactly what I may or may not be playing.

If you are playing more of a "normal" deck than the secrecy does not matter as much.

Kirk

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM

I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

I also found this strangely odd in comparison to every other major CCG. I never understood why players in this game would want to keep their decks a secret, when the pro's in other CCGs are more than happy to have their decks highlighted in event coverage, usually for the benefit of those still learning. Keeping the deck a secret is also pointless in CCGs that utilize sideboards, as you're not allowed to side in cards before Game 1, only after.

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM

I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

For example, at the T2 only I was able to gather info about Kirk's T2 only deck (partially because I had had many discussions with MJB regarding a similar deck, partially because I sat near him for many matches, and partially because Kirk always has some kind of combo deck for which there are several counters). Thus, when I knew that the only logical person I would be playing is Kirk, I knew that I wanted to use the deck with both CwD and Nazareth. True, it didn't end up helping me win, but it certainly helped me stall, and if my offense had included just 2 cards that I didn't, I would have probably (by Kirk's admission) beaten him easily.

I realize that it is difficult to keep your deck completely secret from all opponents, partially because of the fun and fellowship leading to discussions that may leak certain combos, but I know it is often best to avoid letting your deck contents leak, so that your opponent can't predict what you have.

Maybe we should just have one deck per player then. It fixes a ton of other problems as well.

This is a good post. If you can come up with a good T1 combo, more power to you. Until then, I think we will be ok without secrecy.

tbh I forgot you can check multiple decks. I think the only person I've ever seen do it was Greeson and I don't know if I've ever seen him actually change to the second deck.

Maybe we should just have one deck per player then. It fixes a ton of other problems as well.

This is a good post. If you can come up with a good T1 combo, more power to you. Until then, I think we will be ok without secrecy since that's more useful in T2 anyway, which won't be using a cut in any foreseeable future.

Quote from: Master KChief on March 26, 2013, 11:37:01 AM

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM

I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

I also found this strangely odd in comparison to every other major CCG. I never understood why players in this game would want to keep their decks a secret, when the pro's in other CCGs are more than happy to have their decks highlighted in event coverage, usually for the benefit of those still learning. Keeping the deck a secret is also pointless in CCGs that utilize sideboards, as you're not allowed to side in cards before Game 1, only after.

It's really funny that THIS is the game with secrecy, not the one where I can win all kinds of money.

Just sayin.

Continuing on the non-secrecy tangent and going back to the over-the-tabletop cam, I would love to at least see the final match of top cut utilize this and put on a projector. It's a monumental moment, and everyone would be excited to watch it live.

We could even set up a watching room for players that are eliminated from Top Cut to see a feature match each round of Top Cut. That way they can see several rounds of high level play; learning some things and having fellowship while doing it. I for one would love to watch it, especially if there were some particularly talented color commentators talking about the plays and strategies as the game is happening.

Quote from: Master KChief on March 26, 2013, 12:09:01 PM

Continuing on the non-secrecy tangent and going back to the over-the-tabletop cam, I would love to at least see the final match of top cut utilize this and put on a projector. It's a monumental moment, and everyone would be excited to watch it live.

If someone records Top Cut matches, Westy and I will commentate them for posting on Youtube (I don't even care that I'm volunteering him, he'll do it).