Author Topic: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input (Read 25040 times)

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #25 on:** March 26, 2013, 03:58:30 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 25, 2013, 10:32:33 PM

33-64 players: 6 rounds
65-128 players: 7 rounds
Following the completion of the Swiss rounds, a top cut will commence.

Quote from: Master KChief on March 25, 2013, 10:44:38 PM

In regards to non-top cut players still playing Swiss, I find it pretty pointless.

Quote from: Master KChief on March 26, 2013, 02:20:23 AM

That's one of the things I like best about the system...if you don't make top cut you've got some extra time to hang out.

We just have a different perspective here. You guys seem to see playing 6 or 7 rounds as good enough for the vast majority of players, and then letting the "real" tournament start single-elimination style for the elite 16 players.

I enjoy hanging out with everyone at Nats. I even have a history of playing side strategy games like Shadows Over Camelot or StarWars:Epic Duels. I also have a history of participating in whole side events like TEAMS (before it was official) or the CRAZY DRAFT that was tried once. But when I go to Nats, I am still mainly there to play in the main events. And THE main event has always been T1-2p. My hope is to play the full 10 rounds of T1-2p. If I only get to play 7 and then have to wait for others to get to finish without me, it is not something to "like best about the system" for me.

I value Roy's heart for ministry, and I'm willing to support this experiment happening for 1 year (just like I was supportive of Nats being in California for 1 year). But I'm still not convinced that this will be good for the game long-term.

Master KChief · « **Reply #26 on:** March 26, 2013, 04:07:25 AM »

Why would you possibly have to 'wait' for others to finish top cut if you can go off and do whatever you want?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #27 on:** March 26, 2013, 08:02:29 AM »

Since it has been mentioned already, I will just interject my previous anti-Top Cut stance as part of the input process.

That is all. Carry on.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #28 on:** March 26, 2013, 09:02:34 AM »

Roy actually makes a really cool point. There's a lot of potential for fellowship in the extra time given. For example, I play Pokemon, and lots of times players stick around during the top cut to discuss decks, or more commonly, to watch the top cut matches because they are exciting! You get to watch really good players with good decks having good days. What could be better than that to learn the intricacies of the game?

TheMarti · « **Reply #29 on:** March 26, 2013, 09:16:19 AM »

I'm not sure I'll be at Nats, but I'll throw my hat in. I don't think we're going to be sacrificing fellowship if we do top cut - I actually think it'll enhance it, in ways we didn't expect (So basically, yes, I agree with Alex :p).

Professoralstad · « **Reply #30 on:** March 26, 2013, 11:02:56 AM »

Like Justin, I will not likely be playing T1 at Nats (unless my experimental deck ends up taking off by then). And I can say with certainty that top cut would not be needed (and likely wouldn't be wanted) in T2. However, the biggest issue I see will be when, inevitably, the 16th and 17th players are tied, have the same LS differential, and haven't played each other. Or worse, there is a 3+ way tie at the bottom of the top cut. I am not at all familiar with other CCGs that implement this system, but what happens in this case? A play-in round? Strength of schedule? It just seems rather complicated. I suppose someone could modify the Excel spreadsheet to account for strength of schedule, but then a player really is punished for losing early and having to make up ground among weaker opponents; but how is that fair for top players who get matched up early?

I think it's a good discussion to have, and there may be a good solution, but from the discussions I've seen here (which is my only perspective on the CCG world) Redemption is unique in a few ways:

1) The time limits are longer, which restricts us from being able to effectively have best two out of three implemented. From what I've seen/heard the average game of MTG is 15-20 minutes; is that correct?

2) Every player has access to the best cards. I may be wrong about this, but I know that in some CCGs there are certain cards that are worth hundreds/thousands of dollars, which leads me to believe that only a relatively few players have access to them. In Redemption, anyone who has the money to make it to Nats, is easily able to afford any of the best cards in the game. This (in my mind) leads to more luck-based win potential, as a historically weaker opponent has a better chance to beat a historically stronger opponent due to luck of the draw.

3) The LS differential tie-breakers. I have no idea how ties are broken in other CCGs, but the idea that top-cut inclusion/rankings will inevitably have to involve LS differential (As Alex mentioned, a 16-player top cut with a 128 player field with no ties will have 7 6-1 players and 21 5-2 players). Even if we are "fortunate" enough to have 8 5-2 players with clearly better differentials than the other 13, we still have to rank those 8. Also, LS differential is really a bad indicator of skill in a game where 2 of the LSs are essentially free if you can draw the Big Two, and I was very happy when we made the primary ranking method be head to head, reducing the importance of differential. But the player who misses top cut because of 1 LS (and maybe has a much better strength of schedule than the guy above him to boot) is probably not going to enjoy the "time off".

4) Fun and fellowship of the game. From everything I've heard from former/current MTG/YGO/Pokemon players, what Redemption may lack in mechanics it more than makes up for in fellowship. Other than the predominantly Christian values of the majority of the player base, I'm not sure exactly what it is that makes this true. But I don't think it's too farfetched to think that it is partially because of the swiss style that allows everyone to participate until the end. The idea of being able to watch the final matches sounds good, but unless we get cameras at each of the top tables that can be ported to screens outside of the playing area, no top player that I know will want people watching them live. And even so, they probably don't want to reveal their decks to other players in the top cut who finish early.

I definitely want the discussion to continue, and maybe some of my concerns will be addressed, but I just don't see that Redemption is suited for top-cut at any level.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #31 on:** March 26, 2013, 11:18:09 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 26, 2013, 11:02:56 AM

1) The time limits are longer, which restricts us from being able to effectively have best two out of three implemented. From what I've seen/heard the average game of MTG is 15-20 minutes; is that correct?

Yeah, Redemption is definitely longer than most, which makes it challenging.

Quote

2) Every player has access to the best cards. I may be wrong about this, but I know that in some CCGs there are certain cards that are worth hundreds/thousands of dollars, which leads me to believe that only a relatively few players have access to them. In Redemption, anyone who has the money to make it to Nats, is easily able to afford any of the best cards in the game. This (in my mind) leads to more luck-based win potential, as a historically weaker opponent has a better chance to beat a historically stronger opponent due to luck of the draw.

I see your point here, but in my limited experience in other games, most players in the upper half of the Swiss have all the good cards.

Quote

3) The LS differential tie-breakers. I have no idea how ties are broken in other CCGs, but the idea that top-cut inclusion/rankings will inevitably have to involve LS differential (As Alex mentioned, a 16-player top cut with a 128 player field with no ties will have 7 6-1 players and 21 5-2 players). Even if we are "fortunate" enough to have 8 5-2 players with clearly better differentials than the other 13, we still have to rank those 8. Also, LS differential is really a bad indicator of skill in a game where 2 of the LSs are essentially free if you can draw the Big Two, and I was very happy when we made the primary ranking method be head to head, reducing the importance of differential. But the player who misses top cut because of 1 LS (and maybe has a much better strength of schedule than the guy above him to boot) is probably not going to enjoy the "time off".

I'm totally in favor of using Opponent's win percentage as the first tiebreaker for both top cut and standard tournaments (even if top cut isn't used). So yeah. That'd solve this issue.

Quote

4) Fun and fellowship of the game. From everything I've heard from former/current MTG/YGO/Pokemon players, what Redemption may lack in mechanics it more than makes up for in fellowship. Other than the predominantly Christian values of the majority of the player base, I'm not sure exactly what it is that makes this true. But I don't think it's too farfetched to think that it is partially because of the swiss style that allows everyone to participate until the end. The idea of being able to watch the final matches sounds good, but unless we get cameras at each of the top tables that can be ported to screens outside of the playing area, no top player that I know will want people watching them live. And even so, they probably don't want to reveal their decks to other players in the top cut who finish early.

As a top player based on Nationals results in recent years, let me be the first to go out and say it: Keeping your deck secret once the tournament starts is really silly and we need to get out of this habit. It's arguably worse for the fellowship than the top cut would ever be in my opinion. Who cares if people watch your game and know your deck? If your deck is winning due to secrecy, it might not be that good (hate to say it but it's true). I get it for combo decks, but let's be honest, every round past round 4 or 5 if you are doing well, you know what your opponent is going to play. I knew decks of every opponent I had to play against before I played them after round 4 last Nats except Connor Magras (the sort of "surprise" player doing well) so its not like the secrecy is even working.

lp670sv · « **Reply #32 on:** March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM »

I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #33 on:** March 26, 2013, 11:28:31 AM »

IMO fellowship happens no matter what is going on with the tournament itself. By the end of the 10+ rounds of type-1 I am usually pretty spent and feel like the games I am playing don't matter that much anyway. I break out the silly decks I love building and play. I would be doing that whether I was at the bottom of the tournament bracket still or eliminated due to Top Cut. Top Cut has it's positives and negatives but I think it is wise of Roy to give it a shot as the 2013 Nationals Host. That way all of our theories of what it will and will not do for Redemption will fade away into actuality. Those that are staunchly opposed to anything "the secular games do" may be missing a vital point in that we play a game that was modeled after the grandpa of them all. If we did not tread where "they" tread, we would not be able to have experiences like Roy so eloquently described at his local gaming store. Experiences I share with him, being a game store owner. Redemption has been a beacon of light for so many in the gaming world. I trust that it will continue to be!

Professoralstad · « **Reply #34 on:** March 26, 2013, 11:32:50 AM »

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM

I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

For example, at the T2 only I was able to gather info about Kirk's T2 only deck (partially because I had had many discussions with MJB regarding a similar deck, partially because I sat near him for many matches, and partially because Kirk always has some kind of combo deck for which there are several counters). Thus, when I knew that the only logical person I would be playing is Kirk, I knew that I wanted to use the deck with both CwD and Nazareth. True, it didn't end up helping me win, but it certainly helped me stall, and if my offense had included just 2 cards that I didn't, I would have probably (by Kirk's admission) beaten him easily.

I realize that it is difficult to keep your deck completely secret from all opponents, partially because of the fun and fellowship leading to discussions that may leak certain combos, but I know it is often best to avoid letting your deck contents leak, so that your opponent can't predict what you have.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #35 on:** March 26, 2013, 11:35:56 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 26, 2013, 11:18:09 AM

As a top player based on Nationals results in recent years, let me be the first to go out and say it: Keeping your deck secret once the tournament starts is really silly and we need to get out of this habit. It's arguably worse for the fellowship than the top cut would ever be in my opinion. Who cares if people watch your game and know your deck? If your deck is winning due to secrecy, it might not be that good (hate to say it but it's true). I get it for combo decks, but let's be honest, every round past round 4 or 5 if you are doing well, you know what your opponent is going to play.

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM

I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

You can switch decks from round to round. This plays more of a factor in T2 than T1 in my experience. T2 combo decks are a big threat and if you know your next opponent is playing a combo deck you may switch for your alternative deck with more anti-combo cards.

I probably play combo decks more than any other player in the game at big tournaments (and have placed at 3 nationals using combo decks) and I think that it is important to keep whatever small level of secrecy concerning your deck that you can hold onto throughout the tournament. Every time I use a combo people talk about it in between rounds so it isn't completely secret but it is nice when not all of my future opponents know exactly what I may or may not be playing.

If you are playing more of a "normal" deck than the secrecy does not matter as much.

Kirk

Master KChief · « **Reply #36 on:** March 26, 2013, 11:37:01 AM »

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM

I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

I also found this strangely odd in comparison to every other major CCG. I never understood why players in this game would want to keep their decks a secret, when the pro's in other CCGs are more than happy to have their decks highlighted in event coverage, usually for the benefit of those still learning. Keeping the deck a secret is also pointless in CCGs that utilize sideboards, as you're not allowed to side in cards before Game 1, only after.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #37 on:** March 26, 2013, 11:38:28 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 26, 2013, 11:32:50 AM

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM
I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

For example, at the T2 only I was able to gather info about Kirk's T2 only deck (partially because I had had many discussions with MJB regarding a similar deck, partially because I sat near him for many matches, and partially because Kirk always has some kind of combo deck for which there are several counters). Thus, when I knew that the only logical person I would be playing is Kirk, I knew that I wanted to use the deck with both CwD and Nazareth. True, it didn't end up helping me win, but it certainly helped me stall, and if my offense had included just 2 cards that I didn't, I would have probably (by Kirk's admission) beaten him easily.

I realize that it is difficult to keep your deck completely secret from all opponents, partially because of the fun and fellowship leading to discussions that may leak certain combos, but I know it is often best to avoid letting your deck contents leak, so that your opponent can't predict what you have.

Maybe we should just have one deck per player then. It fixes a ton of other problems as well.

Quote from: Captain Kirk on March 26, 2013, 11:35:56 AM

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM
I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

You can switch decks from round to round. This plays more of a factor in T2 than T1 in my experience. T2 combo decks are a big threat and if you know your next opponent is playing a combo deck you may switch for your alternative deck with more anti-combo cards.

I probably play combo decks more than any other player in the game at big tournaments and I think that it is important to keep whatever small level of secrecy concerning your deck that you can hold onto throughout the tournament. Every time I use a combo people talk about it in between rounds so it isn't completely secret but it is nice when not all of my future opponents know exactly what I may or may not be playing.

If you are playing more of a "normal" deck than the secrecy does not matter as much.

Kirk

This is a good post. If you can come up with a good T1 combo, more power to you. Until then, I think we will be ok without secrecy since that's more useful in T2 anyway, which won't be using a cut in any foreseeable future.

Quote from: Master KChief on March 26, 2013, 11:37:01 AM

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM
I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

I also found this strangely odd in comparison to every other major CCG. I never understood why players in this game would want to keep their decks a secret, when the pro's in other CCGs are more than happy to have their decks highlighted in event coverage, usually for the benefit of those still learning. Keeping the deck a secret is also pointless in CCGs that utilize sideboards, as you're not allowed to side in cards before Game 1, only after.

It's really funny that THIS is the game with secrecy, not the one where I can win all kinds of money.

Just sayin.

lp670sv · « **Reply #38 on:** March 26, 2013, 11:45:26 AM »

tbh I forgot you can check multiple decks. I think the only person I've ever seen do it was Greeson and I don't know if I've ever seen him actually change to the second deck.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #39 on:** March 26, 2013, 11:46:53 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 26, 2013, 11:32:50 AM

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM
I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

For example, at the T2 only I was able to gather info about Kirk's T2 only deck (partially because I had had many discussions with MJB regarding a similar deck, partially because I sat near him for many matches, and partially because Kirk always has some kind of combo deck for which there are several counters). Thus, when I knew that the only logical person I would be playing is Kirk, I knew that I wanted to use the deck with both CwD and Nazareth. True, it didn't end up helping me win, but it certainly helped me stall, and if my offense had included just 2 cards that I didn't, I would have probably (by Kirk's admission) beaten him easily.

I realize that it is difficult to keep your deck completely secret from all opponents, partially because of the fun and fellowship leading to discussions that may leak certain combos, but I know it is often best to avoid letting your deck contents leak, so that your opponent can't predict what you have.

This. T2 is much more about match-ups than T1. I could have switched decks to gain the edge that way but I wanted to ride out my main deck through the rest of the tournament at that point.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 26, 2013, 11:38:28 AM

Maybe we should just have one deck per player then. It fixes a ton of other problems as well.

I could get on board with that. It would limit Haman's Plot abuse. It would change some of the deck building dynamic.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 26, 2013, 11:38:28 AM

This is a good post. If you can come up with a good T1 combo, more power to you. Until then, I think we will be ok without secrecy.

Agreed - my attempts at T1 combos have not worked out over the years. T1 is good without secrecy.

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:45:26 AM

tbh I forgot you can check multiple decks. I think the only person I've ever seen do it was Greeson and I don't know if I've ever seen him actually change to the second deck.

Fair. At nationals I believe that most top players check multiple decks from my experience (attended 5 national tournaments). This is especially true in T2.

Kirk

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #40 on:** March 26, 2013, 11:49:24 AM »

Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:45:26 AM

tbh I forgot you can check multiple decks. I think the only person I've ever seen do it was Greeson and I don't know if I've ever seen him actually change to the second deck.

It's most commonly done to use 3x HP. Some people (especially in T2) will use it to play two different decks to counter certain potentially big meta decks. Westy used two decks in 2010 in T1 - a Speed Disciples in early rounds to try to boost diff, and then his anti-meta deck to use when he got near the top and could predict his opponent's deck better. Most of my time outside of games was spent trying to predict his opponent, gather which deck his opponent was playing, and then suggest a deck.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #41 on:** March 26, 2013, 11:58:30 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 26, 2013, 11:38:28 AM

Maybe we should just have one deck per player then. It fixes a ton of other problems as well.

Possibly, but that was kind of my point: in order for top cut to be an effective method in Redemption, then a lot of other changes will need to be made as well. And each of those changes will need to be vetted, to see what other effects may happen.

Quote

This is a good post. If you can come up with a good T1 combo, more power to you. Until then, I think we will be ok without secrecy since that's more useful in T2 anyway, which won't be using a cut in any foreseeable future.

T1 does have a lot fewer potential combo decks to be sure, but each T1 deck can possibly have smaller combos (like Besieging the City/Mayhem) that an opponent who has seen/heard about the deck would have an advantage over.

Quote

Quote from: Master KChief on March 26, 2013, 11:37:01 AM
Quote from: lp670sv on March 26, 2013, 11:22:20 AM
I've never understood keeping your deck secret in a tournament where there's no sideboard or anything like that. So people now know what you're running, they can't swap out cards to get an edge on them. You're deck is locked in. Who cares at this point?

I also found this strangely odd in comparison to every other major CCG. I never understood why players in this game would want to keep their decks a secret, when the pro's in other CCGs are more than happy to have their decks highlighted in event coverage, usually for the benefit of those still learning. Keeping the deck a secret is also pointless in CCGs that utilize sideboards, as you're not allowed to side in cards before Game 1, only after.

It's really funny that THIS is the game with secrecy, not the one where I can win all kinds of money.

Just sayin.

I can't comment on why that is as I have zero CCG experience outside of Redemption, but I know in my experience secrecy can help, at least minimally. Maybe its the different gameplay mechanics, the existence of easy-to-acquire counters, or the fact that there is a much smaller cardbase (which naturally means that solutions to certain strategies are easier for top players to come up with).

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #42 on:** March 26, 2013, 12:03:27 PM »

I think Top cut could be effective without other changes, but I agree a one deck rule would make it even better. FWIW, I just made a one deck thread because I really actually do think it's a great idea (even without Top Cut).

I again suggest that surprise shouldn't be what you are leaning on to win.

Pokemon has a substantially smaller card base currently (due to set rotation) at around 1000 cards or so and it has substantially less secrecy, so I don't know if your thoughts are accurate.

Master KChief · « **Reply #43 on:** March 26, 2013, 12:09:01 PM »

Continuing on the non-secrecy tangent and going back to the over-the-tabletop cam, I would love to at least see the final match of top cut utilize this and put on a projector. It's a monumental moment, and everyone would be excited to watch it live.

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #44 on:** March 26, 2013, 12:17:09 PM »

We could even set up a watching room for players that are eliminated from Top Cut to see a feature match each round of Top Cut. That way they can see several rounds of high level play; learning some things and having fellowship while doing it. I for one would love to watch it, especially if there were some particularly talented color commentators talking about the plays and strategies as the game is happening.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #45 on:** March 26, 2013, 12:18:05 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on March 26, 2013, 12:09:01 PM

Continuing on the non-secrecy tangent and going back to the over-the-tabletop cam, I would love to at least see the final match of top cut utilize this and put on a projector. It's a monumental moment, and everyone would be excited to watch it live.

If someone records Top Cut matches, Westy and I will commentate them for posting on Youtube (I don't even care that I'm volunteering him, he'll do it).

Quote from: uthminister [BR] on March 26, 2013, 12:17:09 PM

We could even set up a watching room for players that are eliminated from Top Cut to see a feature match each round of Top Cut. That way they can see several rounds of high level play; learning some things and having fellowship while doing it. I for one would love to watch it, especially if there were some particularly talented color commentators talking about the plays and strategies as the game is happening.

I would commentate assuming I am not playing.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #46 on:** March 26, 2013, 12:24:07 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 26, 2013, 12:03:27 PM

so I don't know if your thoughts are accurate.

I think I've made it very clear that I don't know that either...

Personally, I wouldn't personally care all that much if people saw my deck beforehand, and usually unless there is something that I am really trying to hide, I won't be too careful with the way I talk about it. However, I know that not everyone has the same feeling, and I think it is generally good form to not talk about others' decks between rounds.

Quote from: Master KChief on March 26, 2013, 12:09:01 PM

Continuing on the non-secrecy tangent and going back to the over-the-tabletop cam, I would love to at least see the final match of top cut utilize this and put on a projector. It's a monumental moment, and everyone would be excited to watch it live.

That would be awesome, and if we could get it setup, I'd love it. I think if we can get it setup, we could get a list of people who don't mind having their decks revealed and the highest-ranked match between two such people could be shown live in each round. But I also think people should have the right to keep their decks secret if they so choose.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #47 on:** March 26, 2013, 12:30:35 PM »

Things I'm For:
Top Cut (though I really wish it was 2/3...maybe if Redemption gets big enough that we need to do a 2 day T1-2P)
Time Limit Counts as Full Win (if it's 3-2, you get a full 3 points)
Strength of Schedule for Tiebreaker (divide up your opponent's win percentage)
One Deck (though it makes me sad, as I'm not sure how viable turtles are without a centralized meta in the early rounds)

These have all been mentioned off and on and I really wasn't sure where to post it, so I'm dropping it here, as it'll greatly effect the Top Cut and make the system work better.

As for secrecy, Anybody can see your deck as you're playing it at a tournament--all you need to do is look to your left/right. Soon word gets around and everybody knows what everybody is playing. Generally it's just about 1 or 2 weird cards that people have teched in, and not the deck as a whole. And during the final round, it's really pointless. If anything, top cut allows you to separate the top players more so they don't know each others decks by peeking during their game, as there are less players playing and more room to play. It could also be solved if the Camera went to a different room, where Top Cut participants weren't allowed in. Then of course there are cell phones and stuff for people to communicate with them, but whatever. If people want to know what you're playing they can know.

I agree that "hovering" shouldn't be allowed. Cameras are fine, but I'm not sure who has that kind of equipment that plays Redemption.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 26, 2013, 12:18:05 PM

Quote from: Master KChief on March 26, 2013, 12:09:01 PM
Continuing on the non-secrecy tangent and going back to the over-the-tabletop cam, I would love to at least see the final match of top cut utilize this and put on a projector. It's a monumental moment, and everyone would be excited to watch it live.

If someone records Top Cut matches, Westy and I will commentate them for posting on Youtube (I don't even care that I'm volunteering him, he'll do it).

But Travis said he wanted talented commentators, so I guess it'll have to be me and Chris.

Yes, I'll do it. I am the Redemption Pooka.

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #48 on:** March 26, 2013, 12:33:48 PM »

Regarding top cut at Nationals reducing some of the fun and fellowship, I can say that there are a group of people that would be very content with the T1 2P event being done sooner. While they enjoy playing, they know they will not be winning and are exhausted after a few hours of playing. Top cut could help with this.

For myself, I know I will not place at Nationals (unless there's a fluke!) but I enjoy playing competitively for the full 10 rounds and trying to place above the middle. However, I have only been to two Nationals, and at both I realized after a few rounds that just a couple changes to my deck would have made it better. Top cut would allow me to be done after less rounds, make the changes, and play come fun games with the revised deck to see if it's improved at all. I wouldn't mind this, either.

The biggest downside I see has already been mentioned: Someone with only one loss could have that loss during the top cut and be eliminated, losing to people with more losses. Part of the reason so many rounds are played is to help alleviate 'bad draws' by giving people a chance to win even if they lose one or two games. This would change that dynamic, whether for good or bad...

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #49 on:** March 26, 2013, 12:35:37 PM »

If there's internet at the nats location, we could stream for non-attenders.

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Author Topic: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input (Read 25040 times)

TheMarti

Warrior_Monk