Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Here is the proposed rules from which I would like to start to confirm concerning Top Cut procedures at Nationals.


Swiss Rounds:

The number of swiss rounds will be adequate to provide one clear undefeated player. The number of rounds is as follows:

less than 8 players: 3 rounds
9-16 players: 4 rounds
17-32 players: 5 rounds
33-64 players: 6 rounds
65-128 players: 7 rounds
More than 128 players: 8 rounds

Following the completion of the Swiss rounds, a top cut will commence.

Participation kickers:

Size of the top cut will be determined by the number of participants.

Top 4: Less than 32 players
Top 8: 33-64 players
Top 16: 65-128 players
Top 32: Over 128 players

The Top Cut:

The Top cut shall be a seeded bracket ala March Madness (1v16, 2v15, 3v14, etc). Matches shall be conducted using standard Redemption tournament rules (for gametime, etc). The top cut shall not be run under different rules than the swiss rounds (i.e. top cut may not be untimed if swiss was timed, etc).




Please discuss any addendums or corrections that need to made.

Only changes I would make is no Top 32...that's 5 extra rounds in comparison to an 8 round Swiss. I'd say Top 16 max is adequate.

In regards to non-top cut players still playing Swiss, I find it pretty pointless.

I suggest making top cut b03 with extremely tight time restraints.

Yes - Roy posted that elders and those involved in the initial thread should determine the procedure.

1.   Type 1 2-Player Swiss Style "Top Cut" System:  I request the elders and members involved in the recent comprehensive discussions on the new proposed system to once more meet, rehash and finalize a specific procedure on how to run "Top Cut" at Nats2013.  This is your chance to implement a workable "Top Cut" that you have been wishing to have.  Please also decide on whether or not to implement "Top Cut" for T2 2-Player, etc.

inorder to make the swiss aspect mean anything i believe the seeding for top cut should not go into a straight bracket but rather a bracket like the nfl playoffs where the lowest seed that wins in the 1st rd of top cut plays the highest ranked player remaining and continue the breakdown like that . . . this allows the winner of the swiss tourney a real advantage and so on for 2nd 3rd and 4th and possibly 5th rd

inorder to make the swiss aspect mean anything i believe the seeding for top cut should not go into a straight bracket but rather a bracket like the nfl playoffs where the lowest seed that wins in the 1st rd of top cut plays the highest ranked player remaining and continue the breakdown like that . . . this allows the winner of the swiss tourney a real advantage and so on for 2nd 3rd and 4th and possibly 5th rd

That's not really the point of a top cut. I don't see any reason to make it more complicated than a standard bracket. Every match in the top cut is going to be tough. Given a 128 person field, the top 16 records will be (not counting potential ties):

1 7-0
7 6-1
8 5-2

Does it really matter who you are playing at that point?

It's also crappy for a player to go in to the final round in the top 2 and end of not placing at all. Best of 3 would pretty much eliminate your scenario, but at this point there just isn't time for each top cut round to be Best of 3 and that may be too drastic a change off the get go. No system is perfect, but top cut solves a lot of the issues with pure swiss.

Let's say I'm undefeated going into Top Cut and I get the top seed. I play someone who lost a couple games (perhaps due to poor luck or poor draw) and ended up with the bottom seed. We play and I end up getting a poor draw, he has LS drought and I end up losing. So at that point I'm out of the tournament because I happened to get a poor draw at the wrong time? And furthermore, I'm out and other players with more than one loss are still in?

And this is why top cut is a bad idea for this game. We have a few vocal people that want to turn Redemption into "every secular card game". I for one would be sad to see the game go that direction after all these years.

Bad draws can happen in any round of any style of tournament and can equally derail your chances of winning no matter what. This is not a problem with top cut, this is a problem with play a single game for any round. If it were not for the time constraint I would suggest going to best of 3 for every round of every style of tournament.

Tell that to the person who goes from final table to not placing because that's when they got hit with a bad draw. At least if you get hit with a bad draw at final table of top cut, you still get second.

And this is why top cut is a bad idea for this game. We have a few vocal people that want to turn Redemption into "every secular card game".

That's not bad, that's how you mitigate luck and people taking advantage of weak schedules. For all we know, an X-0 can be an X-0 simply because he had an easier strength of schedule in Swiss in comparison to the other people in top cut. If you deserve your X-0, then prove it against all the other top players in top cut.

I personally have been a staunch anti-top-cut advocate.

Not that I am a convert of sorts.  But all these years I have been to FNMs and posting myself at a corner table, alone most of the time, and praying that one single soul from the MTG group would approach me each Friday night to learn the game I so love.  Ironically, if that is the right word to choose, most if not all of those who have learned the game called Redemption came from those who 'failed' top cut at MTG tourneys.  But did they feel miserable?  Did they have tantrums and walk hurriedly home?  No.  They stayed and hung around the tourney hall until the very end of the night.  Honestly, I've never seen such "fellowship" than in those tournaments --- the time to compare notes, trade, talk sweet nothings, tenderly bring a troubled friend aside .... or approach Roy's corner, and discover yet another exciting game which may never end up being their main game, but something worthwhile to keep a starter deck in their bag amongst tons of MTG cards.

Last Friday, in Farmingdale, I began anew my FNM hang around sessions at a new gaming store.  Coincidentally, the first owner of the now-closed gaming store in Seaford where we used to play lots of Redemption and where I believe even Tim H's school kids took their first major shot at Redemption gaming, was there playing MTG.  He is a middle school teacher and an avid CCG player, and is Jewish.  When he saw me at my table, he stood up after one of his rounds to announce to the players that I teach Redemption.  It took this man's testimony to get me to teach one player that night.  Yes, it took almost three hours of waiting. But I always ask The Lord for a sign to keep on going.  Daniel, who had lost his chance at top cut, sat down at the prodding of this Jewish man, to learn Redemption.  I went home that night feeling I had taught 1000 people at FNM.

I am not advocating top cut...at least not yet.  But I am willing to risk it at Nats2013.  By August, my MTG players will have had told a few more friends that Nats2013 invites them to try out the game.  Perhaps, just perhaps, God may have a plan for those who will not make top cut --- perhaps an MTG player will want to learn the game from them after observing how competitive our game's top cut system indeed is....and perhaps, learn it from someone who will miss top cut...because that player will have had the time to teach...and to win a new soul to learn a game called Redemption.  That for me, my friends, is honestly even more of a huge win than any trophy to be had at Nats.

All I am asking for is to give yourselves a chance.  And I am offering, I am risking Nats2013's concept of fellowship.  I am strongly confident that the Spirit is guiding our minds and hearts into a final decision whether to give top cut a chance or not.

I pray that God guide the proponents of this untried style in Redemption.  Be sure to prove it will indeed work and create the best possible formula to make this new style a proven avenue for renewed fellowship for those who will not make it to top cut --- perhaps to just happily hang around, talk about sweet nothings, listen to a lonely heart, or perhaps win a new soul.

God Bless us all, brethren.

Peace...and more Peace!

That's one of the things I like best about the system...if you don't make top cut you've got some extra time to hang out. There's rarely any downtime with the strict Nats scheduling, so any extra time to do whatever you want is much appreciated. It's a win-win.