Author Topic: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input  (Read 25030 times)

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #125 on: May 19, 2013, 12:47:44 AM »
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If you want byes, post a better reason. Byes are opposed to the reason for having a top cut - forcing players to play other players doing well that day. To give byes for swiss performance is to negate that.

Chris

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #126 on: May 19, 2013, 01:00:09 AM »
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If you want byes, post a better reason. Byes are opposed to the reason for having a top cut - forcing players to play other players doing well that day. To give byes for swiss performance is to negate that.

Byes help negate the major downside to doing top cut without best 2 out of 3. Those who point out that a person who went undefeated in Swiss could end up knocked out in the first round with a bad draw have a good point. Giving a more tangible benefit than "played the worst of the best" helps mitigate that.

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #127 on: May 19, 2013, 01:05:58 AM »
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After an extensive conversation with Olijar, I agree with him that byes are bad. Like, completely contrary to what we're trying to accomplish with Top Cut. Free wins are worse than wins off your opponent getting a bad draw. More reasons later if needbe.

Also, there is a good chance we get less than 64 people. This will change the structure of the tournament. Less than 64 people should probably be 7 rounds, top 8. More than 64 should be 7 rounds top 16. I don't see any solution other than Single Elimination just because of time constraints.

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #128 on: May 19, 2013, 01:07:24 AM »
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If you want byes, post a better reason. Byes are opposed to the reason for having a top cut - forcing players to play other players doing well that day. To give byes for swiss performance is to negate that.

Byes help negate the major downside to doing top cut without best 2 out of 3. Those who point out that a person who went undefeated in Swiss could end up knocked out in the first round with a bad draw have a good point. Giving a more tangible benefit than "played the worst of the best" helps mitigate that.

Suck it up if you lose because you got a bad draw. Bad draws are equally important in any game but you perceive more value for those in the top cut because they tangible eliminate you from the tournament. I had a bad draw against you round 1 last year and it ultimately eliminated me from placing contention but because I wasn't able to assign arbitrary value to the game at the time, it doesn't feel the same.

The bad draw issue is a Redemption issue, not a top cut issue. It's the reason we all would prefer 2/3. However, that's not a time tenable solution.

Offline RTSmaniac

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #129 on: May 19, 2013, 03:39:32 AM »
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Quote
The bad draw issue is a Redemption issue, not a top cut issue. It's the reason we all would prefer 2/3. However, that's not a time tenable solution.

I agree with this statement.
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #130 on: May 19, 2013, 03:28:32 PM »
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I'm going to arbitrary say lets spend the next week supporting what we think is the best way to top cut, and I will send the proposal to Roy next weekend.

Chris

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #131 on: May 19, 2013, 04:53:49 PM »
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Why don't we work out, say, three or four versions of Top Cut that we think would work best, then just put it to a vote?

Top 8.
Top 16.
Top 14 (with two byes).
Something else?

Offline wyatt_marcum

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #132 on: May 19, 2013, 05:01:26 PM »
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what about double Elim after the swiss rounds?
これは現実の生活ですか。これはただのファンタジーですか。土地のスライドは、現実からの脱出でキャッチ。あなたの目を開きます。見て、空とを参照してください。私はちょうど貧しい少年、同情は要りませんので、私

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #133 on: May 19, 2013, 05:08:52 PM »
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Why don't we work out, say, three or four versions of Top Cut that we think would work best, then just put it to a vote?

Top 8.
Top 16.
Top 14 (with two byes).
Something else?

Because voting creates the illusion that the winning of the vote should be the format used (which will not be the case because players don't take any logistical considerations into their vote). Also, because there's only a few tenable options. Also, because Top 14 is the worst proposal given and I don't want to gain any traction (there might be a bye number that works, but it's definitely NOT 14, and since I don't really like byes, you can find your own bye number ;) ).

Also, because currently there's only two (MAYBE three, emphasis on MAYBE) viable top cut solutions, and no one has presented any logistal reasons any other top cut solutions would work.


Chris

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #134 on: May 19, 2013, 05:15:14 PM »
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Because voting creates the illusion that the winning of the vote should be the format used (which will not be the case because players don't take any logistical considerations into their vote).

So how else do you propose it's decided? People argue about it for a week and then you choose whatever you like best? Seems legit.

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #135 on: May 19, 2013, 05:18:16 PM »
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Because voting creates the illusion that the winning of the vote should be the format used (which will not be the case because players don't take any logistical considerations into their vote).

So how else do you propose it's decided? People argue about it for a week and then you choose whatever you like best? Seems legit.

Because voting creates the illusion that the winning of the vote should be the format used (which will not be the case because players don't take any logistical considerations into their vote).

So how else do you propose it's decided? People argue about it for a week and then you choose whatever you like best? Seems legit.

I have two proposals ready to send to Roy fwiw. I'm not picking what I think is better, and in fact, I've already eliminated my two favorite options because they are not reasonable solutions.

Offline wyatt_marcum

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #136 on: May 19, 2013, 05:23:26 PM »
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I still think that a double elim. top cut would be better.fixes a bad draw thing. and it would be easy to match up the top cut.
これは現実の生活ですか。これはただのファンタジーですか。土地のスライドは、現実からの脱出でキャッチ。あなたの目を開きます。見て、空とを参照してください。私はちょうど貧しい少年、同情は要りませんので、私

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #137 on: May 19, 2013, 05:24:41 PM »
+1
I still think that a double elim. top cut would be better.fixes a bad draw thing. and it would be easy to match up the top cut.

It's not logistically possible.

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #138 on: May 19, 2013, 05:25:20 PM »
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Because voting creates the illusion that the winning of the vote should be the format used (which will not be the case because players don't take any logistical considerations into their vote).
So how else do you propose it's decided? People argue about it for a week and then you choose whatever you like best? Seems legit.
Come on, Chris, Olijar has experience with top cut from outside Redemption and is one to do way more research than almost any other of the people on the forums. I understand that you made the first attempt to get Top Cut implemented, but Olijar was the first to take charge of exactly what that would look like. The important thing is we DO have a governor and not a vote, because Olijar knows what will work better than the masses. I do think it's important to get their opinion, but ultimately I think we should have one person make the choice. Roy or Rob would be obvious, but I think Olijar is far more informed than them on this matter.

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #139 on: May 19, 2013, 05:27:40 PM »
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I'm not making a choice, I'm just not tossing out scenarios that I don't have planned schedules for that I know will work.

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #140 on: May 19, 2013, 05:42:28 PM »
+1
Just do regular single-elim top 8/16 cut. Stop trying to muck it up with too much for the first year, people.
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #141 on: May 19, 2013, 05:52:11 PM »
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Just do regular single-elim top 8/16 cut. Stop trying to muck it up with too much for the first year, people.
I think the real question is the 64 person kicker. Does that make it top 16 cut or just an extra round?

I totally agree that we should keep it simple though. Regular single-elim isn't ideal, but it's solid.

Offline MrMiYoda

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #142 on: May 20, 2013, 05:22:29 AM »
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I believe that most if not all of you who played/play MTG have been involved in a similar swiss/top-cut scenario.  If anyone has participated in a "Pro-tour" event perhaps that would be a great source of definitive info.  Have you seen the official procedures that MTG uses?

Disregarding the qualifying requirements for Pro Tour to apply to Redemption scenario, I can share below a link that the MTG pro players in my area have given me as reference:

http://community.wizards.com/wiki/Tournament_Organizer%27s_Handbook:_Section_C

Your plans are similar.  I know you just want OUR "modified swiss system" to cater to the nature of Redemption.  That itself is a heroic feat since we need to finish T1 2P in just one day.

Note, however, that if you did strictly adhere to MTG's similar methods, then you would need more than a day to actually implement top cut (check out Pro Tour's tournament structure on Wikipedia).

Your mission is simple:
1.  Propose the best, simple, plan that you think would work best for T1 2P that ends at or as close as possible to 8pm.
2.  Ensure that the majority of participating T1 2P players will be happy about the system.  Always expect a minority to have negative opinions.  Should top cut ensue, I'm planning paid unofficial booster drafts or even sealed deck rounds for those who will be eliminated but still want to play some games -- with an inviting prize support for the top three winners (depending in how much is saved in the 'pot').
3.  Be not too uptight with your decision-making --- just pray for best guidance, and employ what you sincerely feel and know will be the best possible experimental scenario for T1 2P play-round system at Nats 2013.

I have not myself personally experienced modified swiss, but am witnessing how it happens every Friday when I demo the game at the regular gaming store to MTG, YGH, and Pkmn players.

Be at peace.

Thanks for all your thoughts and efforts --- and Alex, for your leadership.

God bless all of you for your love of the game, and your undying sincerity.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 05:24:46 AM by ReyZen »
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #143 on: May 20, 2013, 01:01:30 PM »
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Roy,

I do have a proposal that meets those requirements. This thread is continuing to exist because people prefer something that isn't single elimination (which I do agree with). However, there has been nothing offered to show how anything other than single elimination will logistically work with your notices about the schedule (which I don't know if that's been said explicitly before - I feel like it has been because I've been under that assumption).

Regardless, you will receive the proposal next weekend. If more than one option seems to be possible, I will include more than one option so you can select the one you feel is the best for your needs. However, I don't forsee that being the case.

Offline wyatt_marcum

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #144 on: May 20, 2013, 01:12:42 PM »
-1
you could just do it like a normal tournament at top cut. just a smaller version.
これは現実の生活ですか。これはただのファンタジーですか。土地のスライドは、現実からの脱出でキャッチ。あなたの目を開きます。見て、空とを参照してください。私はちょうど貧しい少年、同情は要りませんので、私

Offline Red

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #145 on: May 20, 2013, 03:39:55 PM »
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you could just do it like a normal tournament at top cut. just a smaller version.
That doesn't establish a clear top three. Single elimination does and that is why single elim is the best option time and clear cut results wise.
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Offline MrMiYoda

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #146 on: May 20, 2013, 09:20:59 PM »
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Alex, you mean single elimination for the top cut portion after swiss, right?
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #147 on: May 20, 2013, 09:23:55 PM »
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Alex, you mean single elimination for the top cut portion after swiss, right?

Yes.

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #148 on: May 23, 2013, 03:02:30 PM »
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How does everyone feel about only being able to use one deck during the top cut portion of the tournament?

Chris

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Re: Official Nationals Top Cut Rules - please provide input
« Reply #149 on: May 23, 2013, 03:03:42 PM »
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I've been in favor of one deck for the entire tournament, so I'm all for that. As an aside, what options are you formally proposing to Roy?

 


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