Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote from: faithraider on April 02, 2019, 08:25:33 PM

Hey, what if you NJ someone else's NJ, that just copied SOG?  And then someone copied your NJ?  Does every version of NJ get to rescue a lost soul?

Just want to see how far the chain reaction goes?    I'm imagining a conga line of NJ's in multiplayer.

You can use NJ (copied SoG) to copy NJ and create a conga line of NJs.

Really? Wouldn't your NJ just copy whatever the previous NJ copied? So if it copied SoG you would copy a copy of NJ that's copying SoG?

Isn't that how Book of Jashur (or whatever that blue card that copies enhancements) works if it copies its self?

I've got to be honest... now I'm confused...

I think I might have misunderstood Gabes conga line post too haha

Imitate says the copy lasts for one round, which overrides the default of until the card leaves FoB.

Also, I dont understand why NJ wont stay in play if it copies 3W just because it isn't in battle, the imitate LS is a copy ability that doesn't touch battle and it stays on the field, how is this dfferent?

I agree.  The explanations given by the elder team don't really make sense to me, particularly after reading the REG entry about Copy.  I didn't read anything in there that would suggest that NJ couldn't copy a good 3W and remain in territory just like 3W.  Now if the REG was updated to read that any copy ability lasts until the end of the current phase then I can understand that.  But as it stands now I don't see how NJ couldn't remain in territory as an ongoing copy of good 3W.

I think it would at least be fun if NJ could copy Glory, 3 Woes, Holy Spirit and stick around to give you two of these in territory.  Don't think it would be too overpowering either as you are giving up a soul rescue to get this effect.  Maybe worth thinking about tweaking this rule? 

Except for the fact that you would be able to shuffle NJ with Shrine to Artemis and then use it again to rescue a soul.

I also agree, copy should last until the card its copying leaves play

But in most cases the ability NJ is copying won't be in play so we wouldn't really be able to define it that way.

I agree that it doesn't make intuitive sense that a copied place ability doesn't stick, but if it's been decided that it's better for the game then that's probably what we should stick with.

Copy could be defined to copy a card while it's in play.  NHS ability allows it to override the default and copy last played, so it would work to copy SoG, but if it copies 3W then the default would kick in and allow it to stay

I see no problem with NJ being shuffled and used again.  You wont be able to copy 3W again since it wasnt just played and you'll never be able to rescue 2 LS with it this way.  I see this as pretty cool to shuffle it and use it twice

Except you could also shuffle Woes and get both back for later...then you could shuffle NJ again and copy Son of God on a future turn...

It just doesn't make sense that a card can only cop something while it's in battle, but the card never is in battle.  The default for copy needs to change to include cards that never enter battle.  It may technically work with current rules, but it's not intuitive at all, which all rules should strive to be

And I still see no problem with shuffling NJ, as it will take multiple turns to be able to play it again off your own 3W (1 turn to shuffle nj, then 1 to shuffle 3w, then you have to draw them both again and play them in the same turn) and shrine is easy to negate or discard, and this is all having to use shrine which doesn't see much play and NJ is still worse than TSC

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on April 08, 2019, 10:25:22 AM

Copy could be defined to copy a card while it's in play.  NHS ability allows it to override the default and copy last played, so it would work to copy SoG, but if it copies 3W then the default would kick in and allow it to stay

I see no problem with NJ being shuffled and used again.  You wont be able to copy 3W again since it wasnt just played and you'll never be able to rescue 2 LS with it this way.  I see this as pretty cool to shuffle it and use it twice

We designed and tested NJ with the current copy rules in mind. There are plenty of great targets for it to copy. If we wanted it to copy 3W we would have worded it to get around the default rather than redefine the game rules and retroactively change them. I'm pretty sure that both NJ and 3W are good enough without them interacting as some people desire.

What exactly is the default, as defined in the current Copy rules?

No I understand, I just think copy abilities are confusing and am trying to understand/make them easier to understand.  I'm not necessarily trying to make NJ easier, just so that when a younger player gets NJ, which is basically who this card is meant for, they will be able to use it without having to have a PhD in redemptionese

My question was actually meant for Gabe.

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on April 08, 2019, 10:25:22 AM

Copy could be defined to copy a card while it's in play.  NHS ability allows it to override the default and copy last played, so it would work to copy SoG, but if it copies 3W then the default would kick in and allow it to stay

I see no problem with NJ being shuffled and used again.  You wont be able to copy 3W again since it wasnt just played and you'll never be able to rescue 2 LS with it this way.  I see this as pretty cool to shuffle it and use it twice

Except you could also shuffle Woes and get both back for later...then you could shuffle NJ again and copy Son of God on a future turn...

It seems like a slight tweak to the wording could solve this issue as well as the debate about copying. Personally, since sometimes rules are routinely updated, I think it makes sense to have the wording (especially on a dominant) less dependent on the definition of an ability that already is creating ambiguity.

Some potential suggestions in case this is a viable option:

1. Copy the last good Dominant played this phase. Discard this card.

2. Copy the last good Dominant (from a discard pile) played during this phase.

Just food for thought...

That's a fair point.  I still don't think it is stronger than TSC even with that interaction, but since Gabe says NJ was tested with the copy rules as they are I definitely respect not wanting to make any last minute changes to make a new dominant stronger.

I agree it still wouldn't be on the same level, but without testing it that way, it wouldn't be prudent to make such a change.

Quote

That's a fair point.  I still don't think it is stronger than TSC even with that interaction, but since Gabe says NJ was tested with the copy rules as they are I definitely respect not wanting to make any last minute changes to make a new dominant stronger.

I agree it still wouldn't be on the same level, but without testing it that way, it wouldn't be prudent to make such a change.

So to be clear, a copy ability lasts until the end of phase (not speaking about cards in the FoB)?  I want to address this issue if it comes up in a tournament.