Author Topic: Nationals Booster Draft (Read 10752 times)

Redoubter · « **Reply #25 on:** April 08, 2015, 01:37:55 PM »

Quote from: uthminister [BR] on April 08, 2015, 08:34:33 AM

But with Disciples you add lots of sites and powerful ones at that...pick your poison there I guess.

5 sites in all of Disciples and 2 in TexP. Based on the number of cards received/available, it's not really that much larger odds of pulling sites, but you are infinitely more likely to draw dominants in TexP. Good trade-off IMO.

Drrek · « **Reply #26 on:** April 08, 2015, 02:47:55 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 07, 2015, 09:31:24 PM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 07, 2015, 07:36:13 PM
Quote from: uthminister [BR] on April 07, 2015, 05:57:04 PM
I would prefer to not have Womens packs in the draft pool.
Just out of curiosity, why not?

I'm also not a fan of Womens in booster. Increases the sites/deck, which I dislike for closed deck categories generally, but also puts Falling Away in play. Given the rarity and the number of people at Nats, that's probably a few floating around. Taking away a rescue is a HUGE advantage to those players, and I do not like it being around generally (also prefer Disciples to TexP to avoid Grapes/Mayhem).

Mayhem isn't even the second best card in the set, and neither are as big a swing in booster as falling away.

Redoubter · « **Reply #27 on:** April 08, 2015, 04:08:33 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on April 08, 2015, 02:47:55 PM

Mayhem isn't even the second best card in the set, and neither are as big a swing in booster as falling away.

This is very true, and why I don't necessarily mind TexP (just prefer Disciples), but absolutely oppose Womens in Booster.

Gabe · « **Reply #28 on:** April 08, 2015, 05:24:50 PM »

That's too bad. Womens is my absolute favorite set to draft with. There are so many quality cards in that set, it makes the draft a lot of fun.

New Raven BR · « **Reply #29 on:** April 08, 2015, 05:27:53 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 08, 2015, 05:24:50 PM

That's too bad. Womens is my absolute favorite set to draft with.

as said in your booster draft walkthrough video lol

Eragon5 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 08, 2015, 05:30:04 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 08, 2015, 05:24:50 PM

That's too bad. Womens is my absolute favorite set to draft with. There are so many quality cards in that set, it makes the draft a lot of fun.

I can see why after watching your video on LoR. When I saw you pull Falling Away my jaw nearly broke the floor heh heh.

Gabe · « **Reply #31 on:** April 08, 2015, 05:52:53 PM »

I believe the odds of getting a Falling Away in women is 1 out of 11 packs. Imagine my surprise when two of us had one at the same table!

The odds of a pulling either Grapes or Mayhem in TeXP is 1 out of 12 packs. If drawn and played well, any of those 3 Dominants has a strong potential to impact the game by 1 Redeemed Soul.

Redoubter · « **Reply #32 on:** April 08, 2015, 06:01:38 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 08, 2015, 05:52:53 PM

I believe the odds of getting a Falling Away in women is 1 out of 11 packs. Imagine my surprise when two of us had one at the same table!

The odds of a pulling either Grapes or Mayhem in TeXP is 1 out of 12 packs. If drawn and played well, any of those 3 Dominants has a strong potential to impact the game by 1 Redeemed Soul.

Only one is actually near-guaranteed to influence the game by 1 Redeemed Soul. Mayhem is just 'really really good' not game-breaking in closed format.

Gabe · « **Reply #33 on:** April 08, 2015, 06:08:13 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 08, 2015, 06:01:38 PM

Mayhem is just 'really really good' not game-breaking in closed format.

Mayhem is Angel of the Lord, Christian Martyr or Harvest Time, whatever you need it to be, you just need to use it correctly. It's probably the most diverse Dominant in the game.

Drrek · « **Reply #34 on:** April 08, 2015, 06:11:46 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 08, 2015, 06:08:13 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on April 08, 2015, 06:01:38 PM
Mayhem is just 'really really good' not game-breaking in closed format.

Mayhem is Angel of the Lord, Christian Martyr or Harvest Time, whatever you need it to be, you just need to use it correctly. It's probably the most diverse Dominant in the game.

Its way way weaker than AoTL or CM in booster. Its about on par with Harvest time.

The Guardian · « **Reply #35 on:** April 08, 2015, 09:41:34 PM »

I prefer people have Mayhem/Grapes over Falling Away in a booster game. The first two force the player to be strategic in their use (playing them offensively/defensively) whereas Falling Away is just a "wait til someone is going for #5 and drop it" play.

I enjoy drafting with Womens but the extra cost is something to consider. $4 retail for 8 cards is just not as good a deal as $5 retail for 15 cards in a box pack.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #36 on:** April 08, 2015, 10:35:08 PM »

Falling Away is a counter card. It doesn't directly help you, it merely hurts others. It doesn't help you win the game, it just prolongs it. Now, you can make the connection that hurting others helps you (one of my main philosophies when playing games), but ultimately, cards that directly benefit your victory will be better.

Unholy Writ falls into a similar category, but is more easily countered, particularly because it's on the table for everybody to see.

However, this is all speaking about Falling Away as a general card. In the case of multiplayer, it's considerably more situational. Somebody has to be beating you. If not, then there's little reason to play it (the exception being if you're tying up players so that there is a more even point spread, which may benefit you in the long run, but is unlikely in a large tournament). If you are losing, then you can gain momentum by preventing somebody from winning. However, if there's somebody that is also at 4 who goes before you (or else you yourself are not at 4), then the momentum is short lived, as generally somebody has just expended their defense or has no defense, and the final soul is easily won since everybody is going after the same person (which is likely).

That's not to say Falling Away isn't powerful--it's certainly the most powerful stall card in booster draft--but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's broken, or the most powerful card in booster draft.

Mayhem is far more active and versatile. It can function as a stall card as well. Suppose somebody is going for their last soul and the opponent can't block it. Simply give them a better hand. Wanting to go for your fifth, but somebody just rescued the shuffler? Easy soul gen. Opponent blocked and asked for initiative? You've seen their hand and know they can beat you, so let's get rid of that Death of Unrighteous... Need more resources? Mayhem, Mayhem, Mayhem. Card is so good, especially in multiplayer, where there are higher odds of hitting soul generation. It's easily the most versatile card.

Grapes is whatever. Good, but situational. There's a good chance that the situation will arise, but again, often times there will be three people at four lost souls and the opponent gets to rescue again.

And everybody has the same chance at getting these dominants. Additionally, Guardian of your Souls is fairly readily available if you are concerned about Falling Away.

Drrek · « **Reply #37 on:** April 08, 2015, 11:02:11 PM »

Falling Away is definitely better in booster than Grapes or Mayhem, but that's not even the point I'd make if I didn't want to boost with Women packs (I actually like drafting with Womens). The point I'd make is that Falling Away feels much more unfair if you are the recipient than Grapes or Mayhem ever do.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #38 on:** April 08, 2015, 11:33:25 PM »

Has anyone ever tried a booster with Option 2? With only 53 cards, you can only miss on 10 before you need useless filler to build a legal deck. And with 5 TEC and 3 Angel Wars cards, there's potential for a lot of misses, since Clay and Silver dominate the good side of those packs and receive little (or no) support in the other cards. It might need some testing - maybe via Lackey Booster? - first.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #39 on:** April 08, 2015, 11:45:49 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on April 08, 2015, 11:33:25 PM

Has anyone ever tried a booster with Option 2? With only 53 cards, you can only miss on 10 before you need useless filler to build a legal deck. And with 5 TEC and 3 Angel Wars cards, there's potential for a lot of misses, since Clay and Silver dominate the good side of those packs and receive little (or no) support in the other cards. It might need some testing - maybe via Lackey Booster? - first.

This is a very good point.

Change my vote to the third one. Womens has committed crimes against value town.

Gabe · « **Reply #40 on:** April 08, 2015, 11:47:30 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on April 08, 2015, 11:33:25 PM

Has anyone ever tried a booster with Option 2? With only 53 cards, you can only miss on 10 before you need useless filler to build a legal deck. And with 5 TEC and 3 Angel Wars cards, there's potential for a lot of misses, since Clay and Silver dominate the good side of those packs and receive little (or no) support in the other cards. It might need some testing - maybe via Lackey Booster? - first.

Assuming that the Tournament Host Guide is correct, the packs used in a booster draft must contain at least 54 cards, making that option one short. Another pack will need to be added to make it legit.

Quote from: Tournament Host Guide

Players look at the cards they drafted and have ten minutes to assemble a deck. Each player will have at least 54 cards and are allowed to remove cards if they wish.

The Guardian · « **Reply #41 on:** April 09, 2015, 01:13:38 AM »

I originally voted for option 4, but after further review, I believe I also like option 3.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #42 on:** April 09, 2015, 02:30:07 AM »

I think that's less a rule, and more a consequence of these:

Quote from: Tournament Host Guide

Players do not receive starter decks. Instead they each start with at least six booster packs (one each from available expansion sets).

Quote from: Tournament Host Guide

1. Players build their decks from at least six expansion packs of cards. Each player is given one of each type of booster from six expansion sets as determined by the host.

Unlimited, Prophets, Women, any 3 other foil packs = 54 cards. Anything else can only increase the total.

That also technically makes Options 3 and 4 short on packs, but you could argue 2 Boxes = 3 Packs.

I suspect it needs to shift from at least 6 packs to at least X cards - Tins have 56, as a starting point. Maybe 55 for 3 Boxes + 1 10-Pack. Maybe 60 cards or a Tin, since the Tins are internally cohesive. But that's another discussion.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #43 on:** April 09, 2015, 09:21:55 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 08, 2015, 05:24:50 PM

That's too bad. Womens is my absolute favorite set to draft with. There are so many quality cards in that set, it makes the draft a lot of fun.

, for the reasons Gabe stated.

Maybe surprisingly, I have found Angel Wars to be a close second to Womens in terms of the amount of flavor it adds to a draft. The knowledge that you will have an (almost?) assured second good brigade in silver adds to the strategy of the drafting/deck building portion of the game. And, as others have pointed out, in general the cards (including the silver hero) are not all that good so you do not unbalance game.

Knoxyouthpastor · « **Reply #44 on:** April 09, 2015, 11:03:18 PM »

I have suggested to Chris that we try out some of these options at our next tournaments and play test them. I'll vote after some trial runs...I understand the caution using Womens, Txp and Disciples...but always a nice pull if you get one of those Doms.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #45 on:** April 10, 2015, 06:02:55 AM »

So a slight change. I have added the unlimited pack to option 2 to get enough cards to qualify. I have also modified the poll so you can revote since there had been a lot of discussion an people thinking about changing their minds.

CactusRob · « **Reply #46 on:** April 10, 2015, 08:39:16 PM »

Two things:

1) Cactus does not have the inventory to supply Women packs (I am almost out). So, unless you already have a good supply of Women packs or know where you can get them, Women should not be offered as part of the mix.

2) It is my goal to have a new set similar to Early Church & Disciples release at Nationals. That card box could take the place of TeP or Disciples. However, the set is still under development & playtesting. The work continues.

Whatever happens, I am looking forward to seeing many of you in Knoxville and playing in booster draft again.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #47 on:** April 11, 2015, 06:20:42 PM »

Quote from: CactusRob on April 10, 2015, 08:39:16 PM

Two things:

1) Cactus does not have the inventory to supply Women packs (I am almost out). So, unless you already have a good supply of Women packs or know where you can get them, Women should not be offered as part of the mix.

2) It is my goal to have a new set similar to Early Church & Disciples release at Nationals. That card box could take the place of TeP or Disciples. However, the set is still under development & playtesting. The work continues.

Whatever happens, I am looking forward to seeing many of you in Knoxville and playing in booster draft again.

Hey Rob,

Sorry about any confusion. I have enough of every pack listed above to do which ever booster we decide to do. As far as another box is concerned, if it is released in time for Nationals and everyone wants to use them I'll obviously have to get those from you!

Sadness · « **Reply #48 on:** April 14, 2015, 10:28:17 PM »

New set?

I wonder if he means either a) like tin #26 or b) like warriors 150 cards set. Guess we'll see at Nats. On the doms, Mayhem can sometimes be seen as a 'just annoy the fire out of you' card. Depending on how it gets played that is.

spacy32 · « **Reply #49 on:** April 15, 2015, 12:20:35 AM »

Quote from: Westy on April 08, 2015, 10:35:08 PM

Falling Away is a counter card. It doesn't directly help you, it merely hurts others. It doesn't help you win the game, it just prolongs it. Now, you can make the connection that hurting others helps you (one of my main philosophies when playing games), but ultimately, cards that directly benefit your victory will be better.

Unholy Writ falls into a similar category, but is more easily countered, particularly because it's on the table for everybody to see.

However, this is all speaking about Falling Away as a general card. In the case of multiplayer, it's considerably more situational. Somebody has to be beating you. If not, then there's little reason to play it (the exception being if you're tying up players so that there is a more even point spread, which may benefit you in the long run, but is unlikely in a large tournament). If you are losing, then you can gain momentum by preventing somebody from winning. However, if there's somebody that is also at 4 who goes before you (or else you yourself are not at 4), then the momentum is short lived, as generally somebody has just expended their defense or has no defense, and the final soul is easily won since everybody is going after the same person (which is likely).

That's not to say Falling Away isn't powerful--it's certainly the most powerful stall card in booster draft--but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's broken, or the most powerful card in booster draft.

Mayhem is far more active and versatile. It can function as a stall card as well. Suppose somebody is going for their last soul and the opponent can't block it. Simply give them a better hand. Wanting to go for your fifth, but somebody just rescued the shuffler? Easy soul gen. Opponent blocked and asked for initiative? You've seen their hand and know they can beat you, so let's get rid of that Death of Unrighteous... Need more resources? Mayhem, Mayhem, Mayhem. Card is so good, especially in multiplayer, where there are higher odds of hitting soul generation. It's easily the most versatile card.

Grapes is whatever. Good, but situational. There's a good chance that the situation will arise, but again, often times there will be three people at four lost souls and the opponent gets to rescue again.

And everybody has the same chance at getting these dominants. Additionally, Guardian of your Souls is fairly readily available if you are concerned about Falling Away.

Considering Falling Away in multiplayer with weaker players with no defence. You fall away a LS from the good player so it is returned to the weaker player for you to swoop in and rescue because his defences are shot from the other player taking it. Can definitely be a powerful help.

News:

Poll

Which booster draft would you prefer?

Author Topic: Nationals Booster Draft (Read 10752 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk