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Quote from: Bobbert on May 27, 2019, 02:04:38 PMI'm not sure I like the idea of anyone who wants to do well in T12P having to be okay with not playing Teams/Multi/Sealed. It means that anyone who's excited for Saturday's categories (and/or they stand a chance at doing well for RNRS) has incentive to not play to their best ability on Friday, which is something that I think we want to avoid. On the other side of the spectrum, I for one know I would be very put out if my Teams partner and I were planning decks/strategies beforehand and he managed to make top cut. I'd be happy for him but at the same time be incredibly disappointed that we didn't get to play Teams together.In principle I love 4 and 5, but I'm not sure I like this suggestion for implementing them.This is exactly what I meant. I like the 2 day options just not the potential forfeiting a 3rd category. You would pretty much be telling those who do good Friday "you did good now you get to play less"
I'm not sure I like the idea of anyone who wants to do well in T12P having to be okay with not playing Teams/Multi/Sealed. It means that anyone who's excited for Saturday's categories (and/or they stand a chance at doing well for RNRS) has incentive to not play to their best ability on Friday, which is something that I think we want to avoid. On the other side of the spectrum, I for one know I would be very put out if my Teams partner and I were planning decks/strategies beforehand and he managed to make top cut. I'd be happy for him but at the same time be incredibly disappointed that we didn't get to play Teams together.In principle I love 4 and 5, but I'm not sure I like this suggestion for implementing them.
Quote from: Cnakeeyes on May 27, 2019, 02:10:02 PMQuote from: Bobbert on May 27, 2019, 02:04:38 PMI'm not sure I like the idea of anyone who wants to do well in T12P having to be okay with not playing Teams/Multi/Sealed. It means that anyone who's excited for Saturday's categories (and/or they stand a chance at doing well for RNRS) has incentive to not play to their best ability on Friday, which is something that I think we want to avoid. On the other side of the spectrum, I for one know I would be very put out if my Teams partner and I were planning decks/strategies beforehand and he managed to make top cut. I'd be happy for him but at the same time be incredibly disappointed that we didn't get to play Teams together.In principle I love 4 and 5, but I'm not sure I like this suggestion for implementing them.This is exactly what I meant. I like the 2 day options just not the potential forfeiting a 3rd category. You would pretty much be telling those who do good Friday "you did good now you get to play less"@Cnakeeyes - If we play best of 3, you'll get plenty of games in.@Bobbert - Or you could play the category that's against T1. I will admit the teams conundrum is more problematic
Quote from: TheHobbit on May 27, 2019, 01:34:25 PMWhy can't top cut go until 11pm on Friday night with (option #4)? All the people that make top cut stay up late anyways and go out to eat. Then they can play on Saturday. If you want to extend it to Saturday it should be double elimination AND 2/3 right?That is not at all accurate.
Why can't top cut go until 11pm on Friday night with (option #4)? All the people that make top cut stay up late anyways and go out to eat. Then they can play on Saturday. If you want to extend it to Saturday it should be double elimination AND 2/3 right?
I'm not sure I like the idea of anyone who wants to do well in T12P having to be okay with not playing Teams/Multi/Sealed.
In principle I love 4 and 5, but I'm not sure I like this suggestion for implementing them.
Switching to a two day format means only that each individual player would need to make a personal decision as to whether participating in a possibly "fairer" top cut is worth forgoing playing in a third event.
In order to accommodate the additional day, has anyone ever considered playing Sunday afternoon? I know this poses a logistical issue with morning service and most likely configuration of the church to accommodate the tournament but just putting it out there.Also makes it hard for people to get back for whatever they need to get back to on Monday.
The biggest reasons I can be in favor of going to 2 days for T12P is for "fairness" which to me if were talking that we need to discuss lunch as it's not right that playing a long game right before lunch can leave you less than 10mins for lunch where as a quick game can get 45mins to an hr. (Happened to me more than once at Nats so we cant say it doesnt happen) but besides that I dont see how having that extra day is any more fair than just extending top cut play after say a dinner break or something as it still offers a break and the 2 day system offers unfair things to the players who do well and their teammates.
Quote from: The Schaefer on May 28, 2019, 03:47:33 PMThe biggest reasons I can be in favor of going to 2 days for T12P is for "fairness" which to me if were talking that we need to discuss lunch as it's not right that playing a long game right before lunch can leave you less than 10mins for lunch where as a quick game can get 45mins to an hr. (Happened to me more than once at Nats so we cant say it doesnt happen) but besides that I dont see how having that extra day is any more fair than just extending top cut play after say a dinner break or something as it still offers a break and the 2 day system offers unfair things to the players who do well and their teammates.Just a stab at explaining why a two-day format would be more "fair"...Despite the fact that top tier players all build their decks to be as consistent as possible, everyone has had games where pure randomness in a bad draw (or whatever) has cost them a game. A single elimination tournament (which current top cut is) is inherently going to be most susceptible to a bad (i.e., "unfair") result due to a bad draw. The way to make the top cut more "fair" is to get rid of the one-and-done format--hence the options for best of 3 play and double elimination. Unfortunately a best of three top cut will simply not fit in an evening session after a dinner break with any reasonable ending time (for example an 8-player best of three top cut would require time to be set aside for 9 "rounds" of play) while an 8-player top cut with double elimination would require 5 "rounds" to be set aside. If you make the cut after seven rounds this would mean either a 16- or 12-round day. Sixteen rounds is pretty clearly beyond the reasonable limit. Twelve rounds *may* be doable, but--to be completely fair--I have been a strong proponent of a double elimination top cut so I may be undervaluing how hard it would be to add two games at the end what is already a long day.
I was originally a 2/3 guy but I think I can get on bored with a double elimination. The only stipulation I would have is that the person who makes the final without losing any games should have to be beaten twice by the player who Climbs back through the losers bracket.
Then if we want to talk "fairness" what about "fairness" in those other events? Bad draws happen in every format.
I could see double elimination before best of 3 quite easily but I think if that were the issue then we would need to play double elimination from the get go and move towards a top cut
QuoteI could see double elimination before best of 3 quite easily but I think if that were the issue then we would need to play double elimination from the get go and move towards a top cutThis I do disagree with. Having folks come to Nationals only to have a quarter of them done playing after the second round is a really, really bad idea. Swiss is a great way to run a qualifying event... arguably much better than any form of elimination event.
I find value in eliminating the top 8, 12 or 16 players from the third day field. It gives other players a chance to place or win who otherwise might not have that opportunity.
Quote from: jbeers285 on May 28, 2019, 05:17:20 PMI find value in eliminating the top 8, 12 or 16 players from the third day field. It gives other players a chance to place or win who otherwise might not have that opportunity.That's a fair point (and one of the reasons I think it's better to pair T1 2P and T2 2P, but that's a different topic), but in my opinion Sealed and T1 MP are already categories that are more wide open in terms of who has a chance to win. For the record, I would also support a 2 Day T1 2P tournament (especially if the field was 50+ people) with 1 day of Swiss and then 1 day of Double Elimination if the schedule were such that it didn't impact TEAMS. Perhaps that is something we could look at for future years.
What if we play teams the night of Day 2 of T1 2P this year? And then in the future play TEAMS on Wednesday night?
I’m certain that some of the regular officials (judges, mc, etc) do not want to spend our nights running another official event. Part of the draw to make it to Nats every year is to see distant friends again. That includes time for socializing and meals together.I love a good competition as much as anyone but it needs to be balanced with other things that are important too.
Are you keeping track of all our new ideas Fachman?
I don't know if anyone else out there is really putting enough effort into prepping for Teams to make not playing T1 worth it, but at least a few people have noted that they still want to play three categories regardless.