Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Yeah, the world would be better if we all behaved the way we saw some guys act in a movie.

Reminds me of the people who said Fight Club changed their life.

It wasn't insurrection...it was a man's glorified plan of revenge.

As for education, like Spy, I am unhappy paying for others education especially when a lot of them don't want to be there for a variety of reasons (Brad/technoethicist mentioned several reasons).  However, I don't think doing away with the public school system is the right idea for a couple of reasons.  1.  it will continue to feed the mentality of:  the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.  2.  The public school system is intertwined with other aspects of American life (Sports, music, politics, economy, etc.).  To destroy the system in one fell swoop, could bring down the whole house of cards.  Now a gradual replacement of working ideas with ones that don't work is what I'm for.  Look at positive teaching styles 20 years ago (that way you've seen their fruits mature either for the good or bad) and try to mimic or build on those.  You can't just take out an integral part of our system and look at everybody and say, "fend for yourselves, may the best man/woman succeed."

The teaching style we were in was the same of that of the 1970s-just recently. The more "what works" approach is similar to the pragmatists of Dewey and others back in the late 19th century to around 1940s. Imagine, 100 years ago they wanted everyone to be able to access college, and then found out students did not want to accept lower level labor and thus businesses started arguing for more "relevant" electives....Education is nothing more than a vicious cycle in which we try to teach students the rules so they can achieve their dream job. Unfortunately, that cycle affects people differently depending on available resources.

         I do like how our country gives the opportunity to all, and allow each person to make their personal education as much or as little as they can.  I could have done better, but my education was what I put into it. 

I agree and I woudl go further to say that for many people, their education is what they put into it...but some dont want to put anything into it.

I agree that it is very frustrating paying for peoples education when many of them dont seem to want it.  In some schools of educational thought their is this belief that any teacher, if they try hard enough, can motivate any student.  ANd if they cant motivate any student then they are a poor teacher.

But I take issue with that.  I believe it is true..up to a point.  at some point the student has to want to learn.  If I got to run things, I would keep public education the same (except I would fund it off of state sales taxes and not property taxes to keep the disparities between local schools become problematic) but I would also run a paralell track of work/study/vocational school.  I would let all students choose their own personalized track but if they become behavioral problems in the general school body, they get placed in a work/study group that keeps them off the streets and enforces rules and discipline in a "boot camp" setting.  Real hard cases can be assigned to an actual boot camp setting to keep them from falling into destructive lifestyle choices such as drugs/gangs/truancy etc.

Would this cost? yes, very much so.  But those who want education would get it in spades because only earnest and willing students would be left on the main campuses, and those who are troublemakers would find themselves in a more closely supervised and structured situation (which is probably what they need anyway)  and in that program they would find a basic education and the value of hard work.

You class-ist Bourguoise!  

Proud of it.

I think Israel provides a good model of education. When you were of the age of learning, you pursued academic interests. If you didn't show the capacity to be taken on as a disciple by a rabbi, you went to vocational school (via apprenticeship).

We need to separate the intellectual elites from the workers; that kind of oligarchy works as long as its based of intellectual merit rather than heritage.

you guys are biased agenst homeshcool i HATE public shcool it is 100% agsent the lord and itteaches lies and its crap!

That is a biased statement.

Public school is not "100% against the Lord", it just doesn't support Christian beliefs. Many Christians go to Public Schools, there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't teach "lies", necessarily, but it teaches other beliefs of how the world began. (Mainly Evolution)

I do agree that you can't learn as much there, though. Just glancing at my cousin's Public school homework makes me laugh at how simple it is.

Quote from: crustpope on February 25, 2009, 02:40:26 PM

You class-ist Bourguoise!  

Proud of it.

I think Israel provides a good model of education. When you were of the age of learning, you pursued academic interests. If you didn't show the capacity to be taken on as a disciple by a rabbi, you went to vocational school (via apprenticeship).

We need to separate the intellectual elites from the workers; that kind of oligarchy works as long as its based of intellectual merit rather than heritage.

Oh don't even get me started....Colin, at what age does someone actually know what they want to do with their lives? How often do we change our minds about what we want to do? What is the latest report from colleges about students changing majors, at least 50% change it once,  and over 30% 3-4 times? How much so would it be for a student who was placed in vocational work but had the aspirations of college? How often do we see students nosedive freshman and sophomore year and then get serious their junior and senior year of high school?  One track schooling is not the solution at all...I am in the middle of a class on educational history from 1800-2000 and we have been discussing these concepts time and time again. Read Left Back by Diane Ravitch for a general overview...You would be saying a very different tune if you were from the other end of the spectrum...namely a minority in a urban setting where your school is falling apart and teachers are forced to make due with what they have to provide you some form of education. I harp this on you, because before I left small town Ohio, I believed like you, that the "Golden Opportunity is there for everyone". Reality, it's not. Schools are not identical, by any stretch of the imagination. Name me one other country that has to deal with as many different socio-economic, political, and cultural factors as the US? Germany has a much lower diversity and separation of classes as does Japan. Comparing internationally based on output alone is not a fair scale at all...

Red, you are entitled to your opinion little brother, but please comment on things that you are more informed about. Not all public school is 100% AGAINST the Lord, although that is how it appears. I felt like you did growing up in high school, and  I was from a conservative hometown. Now, looking back, I see that there are many many other topics and matters that need to be handled. Also, be wary of saying public school is full of lies without evidence. I realize you are young and I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I wanted to pass on some advice that others should have passed on to me. Or they probably did and I was too stubborn to listen

And regarding the lack of interest in education of some, yes, it will still be there. It has been I'm sure since the concept of education began and probably will be there until the Glorious Appearing. Why? Because of a carnal desire to be lazy. Or perhaps he/she view the education as meaningless and without value. Hence I have tossed around an idea that every student from Kindergarten to High School would participate in one project of their own, something they enjoy, appropriate to grade level of course. Logistics, how it works, what teachers do what with the students, standards, etc, are still rummaging through my brain. But my argument is that as a society and what has been passed down to students today is that book learning is boring, find snippets of something someone said on the Internet, cite the source, and call it understanding the concept. Thus, I am very very wary about the current multimedia infrastructure plan President Obama is enacting to have every school have wireless internet....

Quote from: Colin Michael on February 25, 2009, 05:16:45 PM

Quote from: crustpope on February 25, 2009, 02:40:26 PM

You class-ist Bourguoise!  

Proud of it.

I think Israel provides a good model of education. When you were of the age of learning, you pursued academic interests. If you didn't show the capacity to be taken on as a disciple by a rabbi, you went to vocational school (via apprenticeship).

We need to separate the intellectual elites from the workers; that kind of oligarchy works as long as its based of intellectual merit rather than heritage.

Oh don't even get me started....Colin, at what age does someone actually know what they want to do with their lives? How often do we change our minds about what we want to do? What is the latest report from colleges about students changing majors, at least 50% change it once,  and over 30% 3-4 times? How much so would it be for a student who was placed in vocational work but had the aspirations of college? How often do we see students nosedive freshman and sophomore year and then get serious their junior and senior year of high school?  One track schooling is not the solution at all...I am in the middle of a class on educational history from 1800-2000 and we have been discussing these concepts time and time again. Read Left Back by Diane Ravitch for a general overview...You would be saying a very different tune if you were from the other end of the spectrum...namely a minority in a urban setting where your school is falling apart and teachers are forced to make due with what they have to provide you some form of education. I harp this on you, because before I left small town Ohio, I believed like you, that the "Golden Opportunity is there for everyone". Reality, it's not. Schools are not identical, by any stretch of the imagination. Name me one other country that has to deal with as many different socio-economic, political, and cultural factors as the US? Germany has a much lower diversity and separation of classes as does Japan. Comparing internationally based on output alone is not a fair scale at all...

Red, you are entitled to your opinion little brother, but please comment on things that you are more informed about. Not all public school is 100% AGAINST the Lord, although that is how it appears. I felt like you did growing up in high school, and  I was from a conservative hometown. Now, looking back, I see that there are many many other topics and matters that need to be handled. Also, be wary of saying public school is full of lies without evidence. I realize you are young and I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I wanted to pass on some advice that others should have passed on to me. Or they probably did and I was too stubborn to listen

And regarding the lack of interest in education of some, yes, it will still be there. It has been I'm sure since the concept of education began and probably will be there until the Glorious Appearing. Why? Because of a carnal desire to be lazy. Or perhaps he/she view the education as meaningless and without value. Hence I have tossed around an idea that every student from Kindergarten to High School would participate in one project of their own, something they enjoy, appropriate to grade level of course. Logistics, how it works, what teachers do what with the students, standards, etc, are still rummaging through my brain. But my argument is that as a society and what has been passed down to students today is that book learning is boring, find snippets of something someone said on the Internet, cite the source, and call it understanding the concept. Thus, I am very very wary about the current multimedia infrastructure plan President Obama is enacting to have every school have wireless internet....

Education isn't a charity service for wishy-washy students. Also, students are lazy or ADD because they aren't learning anything new. That's why I made poor highschool grades: I had learned it all already when I was homeschooled.

Remember, the goal of education is to progress our society, not to egalitize it. Also, if you want culturally adapt schools privatize it. If you want schools to offer competative education, privatize it. If Uganda can have better schools than us, then I'm sure that the lazy masses sitting on welfare can look through their couches for enough change to get a somewhat decent education.

I thought of that movie when I first got here. I, however, would not visit students at home or put my family on hold. I will never be a "Teacher of the Year" candidate because I do not give all of myself to my students. I prefer to be a better than average teacher, and win "Husband of the Year" or "Father of the Year." 

I live in Canada, where education is different than the USA, but it is still public, and I also tend to think that I got a really good high school (or at least some really good teachers)  I think education should allow for students to have more choice than I was given as well as (for high school anyway) allow classes that are more advanced for the students who can handle it.  I actually did worse in high school than I could have because I got bored with some things.

I think school should allow slightly differing paces for students so that they are brought up to their potential.  There are likely other problems, but that's a big thing I think.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 25, 2009, 06:02:54 PM

I currently teach in a school that is 90% Hispanic. I have several students who show exceptional potential, comparable to students I had in a gifted-only magnet school in Virginia Beach. When the possibility of an AP Calculus class was mentioned in a department meeting, I thought it was a great idea. However, the other teachers felt that our students couldn't handle that level of Math and that we should steer them to the simpler classes since they would only be "hotel workers" anyway.

Wow.  That would make a great plot for a movie.  You could call the teacher, "Mr. Escalanza", and the students could go on to pass the AP Calculus exams.  You could call the movie, "Stand and Deliver".
...
Wait a minute, that's already been done

Wow, I was thinking the exact same thing! lol

And dont forget Edward james Olmos as Mr. Escalanza (a.k.a Admiral Bill Adama on the new BSG)

Free market ideals may work in the economic sector but I dont believ e that education should ever be fully free market based.  Free markets always provide an answer to the problem, but the problem is whether it is the right answer to the problem.

Even in economics free market advocates will scream "The Market will fix itself" and they are right.  The problem is that the market is a Giant that has no heart and no soul.  It is a Titanic force of nature that will grind up the living bones of humans to make its bread.  The market will fix itself, but people will die.  They always have in a truly open and free market.

I have no reason to believe that the same thing will happen if we totally privatize education.  People wont die, but their souls will.  When only the rich can afford education then we will be condemning the poor to a second class life and we will be losing the doors on their options.