Author Topic: The Early Church Phase 2 -- Feedback Megathread (Read 21077 times)

Lamborghini_diablo · « **on:** October 27, 2014, 12:07:22 AM »

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152597944169900.1073741828.21471064899&type=1

Rob has revealed the entirety of Phase 2 prior to printing for the purpose of allowing us to give feedback and proof them. Let's condense all the discussion into a single thread so he doesn't have to jump around to read what we have to say.

jesse · « **Reply #1 on:** October 27, 2014, 12:15:35 AM »

Just saw this, so will re-post my (and some from FB) suggested corrections here:

Letters to the Thessalonians —> change “Thessalonian” to “Thessalonica” (see Jason)
Shrine to Artemus —> Shrine to Artemis
Missionary Ship —> by-line should have a hyphen in-between “Set” and “Aside"
Silas —> “topdeck up to X cards from bottom of YOUR deck", perhaps?
Timothy —> art should be updated (blurry/old-looking when Timothy should look awesome!

)
Barsabbas —> there is no Letter to Gentile Believers
Fortunatus —> special ability is unfinished
Noblewomen —> should it be “Noble Women”?
Faithfulness —> does “withdraw” include underdeck?
Self Control —> should have a hyphen between the words in the Card Name/Title
Stand Firm —> should “heretic” be capitalized?
Demetrius the Silversmith —> “characters” should be capitalized
Seized by Rioters —> should be 2/2, 2 heroes and 2 turns, if basing it off of the verse, because only 2 men were dragged along (Gaius and Aristarchus)
Worldly Wisdom —> should “scholar” and “philosopher” be capitalized?
Antonius Felix —> there is no Drusilla
The god of this World —> draws 1 fewer, not less
Spirit of Fear --> change art (inappropriate/immodest, imo)
Shipwreck —> capitalize “site”

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #2 on:** October 27, 2014, 12:46:56 AM »

WOW

Angry Mob made me laugh so hard. I adore those 3 cards.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #3 on:** October 27, 2014, 01:34:00 AM »

My notes:

Areopagus:
It says it holds an Artifact that Depicts an Idol, which is fine, but it might make sense to just say "Holds an Idol", it would lose out on a couple of curses (Captured Ark and Unknown Nation come to mind) but makes the ability a little nicer and less reliant on the card art.
It's ability also says "... each player must draw 1" you could reword that section to "...each player draws 1" and it would mean the same thing.

Mark: the word "enhancement" is in his ability twice, once it is capitalized and the other time it isn't (neither time is it the first word in a sentence)

Crispus: Why is he a priest? From what I can tell he is just a leader of a Synagogue, which I don't believe is the same as being a priest.

Phoebe: The ability works, but as it is worded you are discarding enhancements in play to draw cards, so if it was intended to discard from hand to draw you'd have to reword it.

Spirit of Fear: While not technically incorrect, it says "Withdraw all heroes. Rescuing..." While every other similar ability says "Withdraw all heroes in battle..."

Redoubter · « **Reply #4 on:** October 27, 2014, 07:12:31 AM »

Quote from: jesse on October 27, 2014, 12:15:35 AM

Letters to the Thessalonians —> change “Thessalonian” to “Thessalonica” (see Jason)
It doesn't actually matter since they both mean the same thing, though it should be consistent.
Shrine to Artemus —> Shrine to Artemis
Yeah, should be changed based on the verse, possibly a spelling from a different version.
Missionary Ship —> by-line should have a hyphen in-between “Set” and “Aside"
Set-aside is an ability and Set Aside is a location, to my knowledge.
Silas —> “topdeck up to X cards from bottom of YOUR deck", perhaps?
Default is your location when it does not specify.
Timothy —> art should be updated (blurry/old-looking when Timothy should look awesome! )
I like that art, and think it isn't blurry but just the period/style, but I can understand that.
Barsabbas —> there is no Letter to Gentile Believers
Well then, right now, he can't search for it is all
Fortunatus —> special ability is unfinished
I had commented on that one, the last word is 'interrupted' for reference.
Noblewomen —> should it be “Noble Women”?
Either should be acceptable.
Faithfulness —> does “withdraw” include underdeck?
It does not.
Self Control —> should have a hyphen between the words in the Card Name/Title
Probably based on the verse.
Stand Firm —> should “heretic” be capitalized?
That would be consistent yes.
Demetrius the Silversmith —> “characters” should be capitalized
I don't think just the word "characters" gets capitalized normally, could be wrong.
Seized by Rioters —> should be 2/2, 2 heroes and 2 turns, if basing it off of the verse, because only 2 men were dragged along (Gaius and Aristarchus)
Paul was also involved and 'taken out of action' due to fear of the disciples per later verses, but I can see that point too.
Worldly Wisdom —> should “scholar” and “philosopher” be capitalized?
Not sure it it has to be for that one, good question.
Antonius Felix —> there is no Drusilla
Well then, right now, he can't band is all
The god of this World —> draws 1 fewer, not less
English is silly. This could be either.
Spirit of Fear --> change art (inappropriate/immodest, imo)
I'm going to bring this up, as there is cause to discuss it based on the history of the piece.
Shipwreck —> capitalize “site”
I think that is right, but I can't keep track of capitalizations myself...

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on October 27, 2014, 01:34:00 AM

My notes:

Areopagus:
It says it holds an Artifact that Depicts an Idol, which is fine, but it might make sense to just say "Holds an Idol", it would lose out on a couple of curses (Captured Ark and Unknown Nation come to mind) but makes the ability a little nicer and less reliant on the card art.
It's ability also says "... each player must draw 1" you could reword that section to "...each player draws 1" and it would mean the same thing.
I think the first part is fine as-is, but the second uses 'must' to indicate that it is mandatory and avoid confusion.

Mark: the word "enhancement" is in his ability twice, once it is capitalized and the other time it isn't (neither time is it the first word in a sentence)
Good point.

Crispus: Why is he a priest? From what I can tell he is just a leader of a Synagogue, which I don't believe is the same as being a priest.
You cannot lead a Jewish synagogue without being a priest, to my knowledge.

Phoebe: The ability works, but as it is worded you are discarding enhancements in play to draw cards, so if it was intended to discard from hand to draw you'd have to reword it.
Based on discussions, that is the intent (to discard ones in play).

Spirit of Fear: While not technically incorrect, it says "Withdraw all heroes. Rescuing..." While every other similar ability says "Withdraw all heroes in battle..."
It is acceptable as it is because Withdraw has an interesting default condition that "in battle" actually restricts.

_JM_ · « **Reply #5 on:** October 27, 2014, 08:31:43 AM »

The card frame on Mark combined with the artwork is pretty painful to look at. Any way to get the frame changed, maybe to blue?

Also, what definition of Apostle are we using to hand out identifiers? I wouldn't have thought Silas to be an Apostle.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #6 on:** October 27, 2014, 09:04:27 AM »

Apostle seems to be used rather loosely, it appears.

What is strange, however, is that there are only two rare cards. That strikes me as unusual.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #7 on:** October 27, 2014, 10:11:41 AM »

Should Love only target a NT human you control?

LukeChips · « **Reply #8 on:** October 27, 2014, 11:04:57 AM »

No saul/paul...

Daniel · « **Reply #9 on:** October 27, 2014, 11:16:54 AM »

May I make an aesthetic proofread?

The artwork on Elymas the Sorcerer is terrible. I suggest going with the art from disciples found here
Using the same artwork and card frame for both Secundus and Aristarchus looks confusing, either change one of the frames or one of the art choices (I'm not gonna just say "change the art" without offering an alternative, so for Secundus I recommend this piece.
Achaicus' art has been used numerous times for different cards, and this one makes the least sense (being a priest praying at an altar). Perhaps this one works better?
For Barsabbas, this classic image of Saint Joseph Justus Barsabbas is not as brutal on the eye
The illustration used for Timothy is just a national tragedy. I admit, in searching for a replacement, there isn't exactly a wealth of incredible Timothy depictions. However, I found this one that at least won't have to be pixelated.
As for Lystra, again, the cartoonish artwork is depressing. this masterpiece suits the card much better and depicts Paul in Lystra.

jesse · « **Reply #10 on:** October 27, 2014, 12:01:57 PM »

for Timothy, you're right it's hard to find a good image. Perhaps this one could be considered too? http://paulburkhart.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/paul-and-timothy.jpg

browarod · « **Reply #11 on:** October 27, 2014, 12:04:26 PM »

Areopagus - Unless the idea is to only provide protection during battle, it should be "from opponents' good cards" not "opponent's".

Silas - In the identifier, most previous cards don't have identifiers capitalized like titles (first letter of "important" words capitalized) so I think it's more consistent to have it say "X = # of your missionaries" (same could be said for Areopagus, actually, and Noblewomen). If the convention is changed starting with this set I guess it's better to be consistent, but I think the old capitalization (or really, lack thereof) looks better.

Luke - Current wording allows you to underdeck the card you just used to pay his cost (if it's a Luke or Acts card), is that the intention? Doesn't seem like as much of a cost if you're able to immediately put the paid card back in your deck. Admittedly this has less impact until later in the game when you might be decked out.

Mark - Doesn't need a comma before "regardless of brigade." It's a clause on the same phrase, not a separate idea, so it doesn't need a comma. Agree with Christian Soldier that the 2 instances of "enhancement" should be the same capitalization.

Timothy - I actually agree with jesse that the art looks a bit pixelated. Might look better on the actual cards (since I think they're a bit smaller than the pics on Facebook are) but could probably be zoomed out slightly to clear some of it up (depending on the availability of the original art).

Barsabbas - Seems to fit with the missionary theme but isn't a missionary himself? Not sure if that's an oversight or if he's just actually not a missionary. Also, as long as there's going to be a card called "Letter to Gentile Believers" then his ability is fine, just not sure if it's an oversight and is referencing a card that received a name change lol.

Fortunatus - Enhancement should be capitalized to be consistent with other cards in the set.

Achaicus - The semicolon isn't grammatically correct. It should either be a colon (which has other connotations in Redemption) or the "put Lost Souls in play..." phrase should be a separate sentence. I'd vote for separate sentence based on older cards with similar abilities. It could also be replaced with "and" and I'd be fine with that option as well (to make the ability "reveal ... and put Lost Souls ...."

Noblewomen - Same semicolon issue as Achaicus. Unless they're creating new "Redemption grammar"?

Burning of Magic Books - "Magician(s)" in card text, much like prophet or angel or disciple, is not usually capitalized.

Sowing Bountifully - See Achaicus/Noblewomen.

Elymas Struck Blind - The first part of the verse reference is a quote and has the ending quotation marks, but there should be opening quotation marks at the beginning as well.

Eye On It - Kind of an odd card name, but may just take getting used to. Same colon issue as Achaicus/Noblewomen/Sowing Bountifully.

Miracle at Troas - I believe "artifacts" is usually capitalized in card texts because it's a card type (like Enhancement is always capitalized).

Prayer and Fasting/Work With Your Hands - I brought this up with Silas above but I don't think every word in an identifier (when it's a phrase) should be capitalized. These 2 cards are examples of the same exact phrase done both ways. Whichever way is chosen, the cards should be consistent so one of these should be changed.

Drunkenness - The identifier spells out the word "number" when all other cards use "#" instead. Consistency should be kept here.

Angry Mob cards - Each has the identifier that you can have up to 4 per 50. They have different art and different brigades so are they considered different cards for deck building? As such, would you actually be able to have 12 total Angry Mobs (4 of each brigade) per 50 cards in your deck?

Antonius Felix - Similarly to Barsabbas, if "Drusilla" is a card that WILL exist then he's fine.

The god of This World - I think it might need to be "1 fewer" rather than "1 less" but I'm not sure.

Messenger of Satan - Not an issue, but I just wanted to point out that I'm SO EXCITED we finally have demon support that draws from bottom of deck. I've been waiting for that kind of ability!

Elymas the Sorcerer - I find it interesting that they'd reprint something they just reprinted in Disciples and literally make it a straight-up improvement. There's no reason to use the Disciples version once this is released (unless for some reason you want demons in your discard pile).

Overall, yay more new cards! Yay for community feedback before printing!

Master Q · « **Reply #12 on:** October 27, 2014, 12:10:31 PM »

Quote from: Daniel on October 27, 2014, 11:16:54 AM

May I make an aesthetic proofread?

Yes. Please.

Quote from: Daniel on October 27, 2014, 11:16:54 AM

Using the same artwork and card frame for both Secundus and Aristarchus looks confusing, either change one of the frames or one of the art choices (I'm not gonna just say "change the art" without offering an alternative, so for Secundus I recommend this piece.

Actually, that art was just used on a previous card:

Spoiler (hover to show)

I like all of the other suggestions, except I'd prefer old Timothy to that new Timothy picture you've found, pixels and all. The best bet would be to look up pictures of Apostles, Disciples, or famous Saints and select one and rename him 'Timothy'.
I really don't like cartoony pictures on Redemption cards when there are far better pictures, which Daniel has shown. Disagreement Over Mark and Preaching in the Synagogue are other cards where the art comes off as a bit low quality.
On the other hand, the art on Miracle at Troas and Phoebe is great, but it makes me sad to see it on such bad cards.

Drrek · « **Reply #13 on:** October 27, 2014, 12:26:20 PM »

Quote from: Daniel on October 27, 2014, 11:16:54 AM

For Barsabbas, this classic image of Saint Joseph Justus Barsabbas is not as brutal on the eye

The Barsabbas mentioned on this card is Judas Barsabbas, who traveled with Silas, and is different from Joseph Justus Barsabbas who was the person who Matthias was selected over to take Judas' place among the apostle. They are two different people.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 27, 2014, 12:48:07 PM »

Quote from: LukeChips on October 27, 2014, 11:04:57 AM

No saul/paul...

1. Where is Saul/Paul? I would like to see that one as soon as possible.

2. Drunkenness is a great enhancement card if the SA stays the same

3. Where is Drusilla??

4. Should there be more Lost Soul cards 1 or 2 more in the Phase 2 set???

5. Agreed that the Spirit of Fear and Elymas the Sorcerer pictures should be a different than the current ones.

6. Reprint of Elymas the Sorcerer is interesting thing for Cactus to do. If it stays like that , the disciples one would probably not be useful anymore.

maybe this new TEC version could bring back the older gray version with the SA like"you may discard a demon from your territory to discard a hero in an opponent's territory CBI" and have two versions instead.

Redoubter · « **Reply #15 on:** October 27, 2014, 01:10:10 PM »

Quote from: browarod on October 27, 2014, 12:04:26 PM

Areopagus - Unless the idea is to only provide protection during battle, it should be "from opponents' good cards" not "opponent's".
This is not necessarily needed, as pointed out in other threads. Outside of battle, 'opponent's' refers to any other opponent, and is used on a lot of other cards already.

Silas - In the identifier, most previous cards don't have identifiers capitalized like titles (first letter of "important" words capitalized) so I think it's more consistent to have it say "X = # of your missionaries" (same could be said for Areopagus, actually, and Noblewomen). If the convention is changed starting with this set I guess it's better to be consistent, but I think the old capitalization (or really, lack thereof) looks better.
I've never really cared as much about the capitalization, as I feel it is less of an issue, but I agree it should be consistent where able.

Luke - Current wording allows you to underdeck the card you just used to pay his cost (if it's a Luke or Acts card), is that the intention? Doesn't seem like as much of a cost if you're able to immediately put the paid card back in your deck. Admittedly this has less impact until later in the game when you might be decked out.
That was intentional, though I agree that it is a concern and have suggested alternatives as well.

...

Barsabbas - Seems to fit with the missionary theme but isn't a missionary himself? Not sure if that's an oversight or if he's just actually not a missionary. Also, as long as there's going to be a card called "Letter to Gentile Believers" then his ability is fine, just not sure if it's an oversight and is referencing a card that received a name change lol.
Yeah, he SHOULD be a missionary by any definition I can see, that should be added. And, not an oversight

...

Achaicus - The semicolon isn't grammatically correct. It should either be a colon (which has other connotations in Redemption) or the "put Lost Souls in play..." phrase should be a separate sentence. I'd vote for separate sentence based on older cards with similar abilities. It could also be replaced with "and" and I'd be fine with that option as well (to make the ability "reveal ... and put Lost Souls ...."
I'm not a fan of the old wording, and while it may not be 'grammatically' correct the use of punctuation on shortened-wording cards is not going to be precise as if you were writing a paper. Still, I would prefer a colon instead there and leaving it the way it is otherwise.

...

Burning of Magic Books - "Magician(s)" in card text, much like prophet or angel or disciple, is not usually capitalized.
Agreed.

...

Eye On It - Kind of an odd card name, but may just take getting used to. Same colon issue as Achaicus/Noblewomen/Sowing Bountifully.
Refers to keeping your eye on the prize (as a runner intending to win the race). Otherwise, I actually prefer semicolon here, since there is already a colon, but that's me.

Miracle at Troas - I believe "artifacts" is usually capitalized in card texts because it's a card type (like Enhancement is always capitalized).
I think you're right on that one too.

...

Drunkenness - The identifier spells out the word "number" when all other cards use "#" instead. Consistency should be kept here.
Not as concerned about that part as I am about the ability...

Angry Mob cards - Each has the identifier that you can have up to 4 per 50. They have different art and different brigades so are they considered different cards for deck building? As such, would you actually be able to have 12 total Angry Mobs (4 of each brigade) per 50 cards in your deck?
No. They say you may have 4 Angry Mob cards in your deck per 50 cards. That overrides all deckbuilding rules and establishes new ones just for this card name.

...

The god of This World - I think it might need to be "1 fewer" rather than "1 less" but I'm not sure.
English is silly. This could be either and be fine at getting the point across.

Messenger of Satan - Not an issue, but I just wanted to point out that I'm SO EXCITED we finally have demon support that draws from bottom of deck. I've been waiting for that kind of ability!
Staple for sure. He also is CBP and bands to humans, something demons desperately wanted...

...

Redoubter · « **Reply #16 on:** October 27, 2014, 01:11:43 PM »

In general, I think I'm finding I'm one of the few who likes all the new art

I don't think anything left needs changing, but that's just me.

Quote from: LukeChips on October 27, 2014, 11:04:57 AM

No saul/paul...

We really don't need a new Saul/Paul, the old one is perfect as-is. I'm not sure how you would improve on the old one, and if you didn't improve, I don't see why you would use a new one.

Quote from: RTSmaniac on October 27, 2014, 10:11:41 AM

Should Love only target a NT human you control?

If you want to bestow love's increase to another player's character, why not? Though I'm hoping to see an update to that card myself to a different ability.

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on October 27, 2014, 12:48:07 PM

Quote from: LukeChips on October 27, 2014, 11:04:57 AM
No saul/paul...

1. Where is Saul/Paul? I would like to see that one as soon as possible.
As stated above, absolutely no need for a new one, it wouldn't make sense no matter what you printed. Old one is already so powerful, and you'd have to make a 'better' one.

2. Drunkenness is a great enhancement card if the SA stays the same
I would very much disagree. This is one I am advocating changes, because it also includes your initial 3, includes cards your opponent causes you to draw, and can be played off of Mayhem (no matter whose it is) to get rid of an entire hand. Losing your hand is the same as losing the game in most games. Even a few cards randomly lost (and shuffled CBI, no less) is far more powerful than anything we have now for a good reason.

3. Where is Drusilla??
Not an oversight, but if you were to print him now, why not add the band so you can print her later and have it mean something? Forward thinking is good here.

4. Should there be more Lost Soul cards 1 or 2 more in the Phase 2 set???
The set focuses on establishing new themes and bolstering Clay, not to add more Souls (though more would be fun to me.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 27, 2014, 01:19:10 PM »

That is a good point for Drunkenness enhancement that redoubter makes.

Maybe there should be a limit of 3 instead. Like words of discouragement.

Redoubter · « **Reply #18 on:** October 27, 2014, 01:22:17 PM »

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on October 27, 2014, 01:19:10 PM

That is a good point for Drunkenness enhancement that redoubter makes.

Maybe there should be a limit of 3 instead. Like words of discouragement.

The problem there is that it will always be 3, instead of actually focusing on the issue of drawing. It should be limited to drawing cards that they actually play themselves, IMO.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #19 on:** October 27, 2014, 03:50:17 PM »

Angry Mob shouldn't be printed.

Redoubter · « **Reply #20 on:** October 27, 2014, 04:18:31 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on October 27, 2014, 03:50:17 PM

Angry Mob shouldn't be printed.

What is your reasoning? I'm not saying that your point is not valid, but with the feedback it's good to understand why a card is not recommended.

browarod · « **Reply #21 on:** October 27, 2014, 04:36:58 PM »

I like the new Angry Mob(s) over the old one because with this new one at least I can discard characters from opponents, too, rather than just discarding my own character when the spinning would inevitably point at me. >_>

I also think the Mobs could benefit from something like my Multicultural identifier idea. I know that's probably the point of having them in 3 brigades, but letting them also somewhat support civilization themes would make them more useful, imo.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #22 on:** October 27, 2014, 04:56:42 PM »

I think Angry Mobs adds some spice to the game! Just like a real riot, they could accidentally destroy each other before they all get to band... but not before costing every player a good number of characters! And that's assuming you don't provide some character protection, which you could easily do. Lystra makes them competitive, and being able to cross several brigades will open up some great options.

How will the original Angry Mob (Ap) interact with these cards? Does the new identifier carry over, or will a player only be able to have 1 copy of Angry Mob (Ap) in their deck?

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 27, 2014, 05:01:23 PM »

Quote from: browarod on October 27, 2014, 04:36:58 PM

I like the new Angry Mob(s) over the old one because with this new one at least I can discard characters from opponents, too, rather than just discarding my own character when the spinning would inevitably point at me. >_>

Angry Mob is pretty good. I have thought of some options that maybe others may or may not think is a good idea.

To make it balanced and or fair to all players maybe the following could be added.

Also not really sure how discarding a "random character" would work as all players can see all characters in their territories.

1. " Regardless of Protection discard a random character from each territory" (Regardless of protection for any fortress or artifact protecting any characters in a territory."

2. Or some kind of requirement that if the player controlling angry mob cannot discard any character in another opponent's (s) territory and their own territory then the effect does not work.

3. or if the player with angry mob can not target a card in someone else's territory then do not block with it....

Redoubter · « **Reply #24 on:** October 27, 2014, 05:09:55 PM »

Rare is the protection that stops your own characters from being discarded by your abilities. Most things will stop opponent's abilities from discarding them.

Even if you have something the protects your other themes from discard (like High Priest's Palace), those characters are not legitimate targets for the random discard, and thus something that is able to be targeted (like, say, your other Mobs laid-down or played in previous turns) would bite the dust.

News:

Author Topic: The Early Church Phase 2 -- Feedback Megathread (Read 21077 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

LukeChips

Daniel

browarod

browarod