Author Topic: Re: Obama (Read 18937 times)

megamanlan · « **Reply #75 on:** January 07, 2011, 11:28:42 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on January 07, 2011, 03:17:23 PM

You still refuse to cite any of your outlandish claims.

I will cite my evidence, but u need to stop listening to all of the biased media u listen to, if u listened to some Christian news programs that actually will report this type of stuff, instead of just saying how good he his, and refuse to actually say anything on how this could harm us.

Also only four of the founders were not Christians, all I have to say is READ THEIR WRITINGS! and stop being fooled by those who are trying to re-write history to make us think that we are not a Christian Nation.

megamanlan · « **Reply #76 on:** January 07, 2011, 11:33:49 PM »

The Government was created by God to enforce what God commands, but flawed man keeps on coruppting and perverting it to where the gov. Becomes our God, instead of being Gods enforcement.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #77 on:** January 07, 2011, 11:44:46 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on January 07, 2011, 11:28:42 PM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on January 07, 2011, 03:17:23 PM
You still refuse to cite any of your outlandish claims.

I will cite my evidence, but u need to stop listening to all of the biased media u listen to, if u listened to some Christian news programs that actually will report this type of stuff, instead of just saying how good he his, and refuse to actually say anything on how this could harm us.

Also only four of the founders were not Christians, all I have to say is READ THEIR WRITINGS! and stop being fooled by those who are trying to re-write history to make us think that we are not a Christian Nation.

A Christian news source is simply a source with a bias you agree with. Personally I try to find news on important stories from many different viewpoints, gather the commonalities, and synthesize the rest as much as possible in order to try to get closer to the truth of the news story.

America is not a Christian nation. It is a nation founded by (debateably) Christian men. You realize that it is immoral to rebel against a government unless it is breaking God's law, do you not? How was Britain breaking God's laws?

For the second time, I don't think Obama is good. I would not have chosen him to be our president last election (nor would I have chosen McCain). But the fact is that he is our president, and I will respect him as such, and not state the sort of nonsense you are spouting. He is not a socialist. He is merely a do nothing.

Also, I am fairly confident mroe than 4 founders were not Christians. I demand a cite to support your claim. Additionally, when was church attendence by decade (by percentage of populace) in America the lowest? According the my history teacher (I went to a reformed presyterian school), it was the lowest in 1790s. Sounds like the 1790s weren't that bastion of Christendom you think they were.

JSB23 · « **Reply #78 on:** January 07, 2011, 11:46:58 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on January 07, 2011, 11:25:53 PM

Quote from: JSB23 on January 07, 2011, 10:37:15 PM
3. I must have missed the part where it's the government's job to enforce religious laws
Religious laws=morality. There is no morality without religion. Laws are based around morality (hence why I can't kill you. Which I should totally be able to do, the government is restricting my rights. I can do what I want), therefore the government essentially enforces religious law.

The government's job is to protect the rights of it's citizens, you can't kill me because you would be violating my rights by doing so

The Schaef · « **Reply #79 on:** January 08, 2011, 12:05:11 AM »

Yes, but enforcement of those laws involves depriving people of liberties. Taxation of the populace deprives them of liberties. In effect, any authoritative action taken by the government comes at the expense of the people on whom it subsides. The question of governance, then, is how much power is appropriate for the government to take from its people in order to do what it does.

For the government truly to do nothing more than protect the rights of its citizens falls on one extreme end of the political-philosophical spectrum: libertarianism. It goes from there through conservatism (a limited but practical use of government), through liberal/progressivism (government as an activist force) to socialism (government managing all major aspects of society, particularly economy and production). So in all but a small percentage of people, the prevailing wisdom is that the government should be active in the lives of the citizens in SOME capacity beyond just policing violations.

megamanlan · « **Reply #80 on:** January 08, 2011, 12:26:11 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on January 07, 2011, 11:44:46 PM

Quote from: megamanlan on January 07, 2011, 11:28:42 PM
Quote from: Alex_Olijar on January 07, 2011, 03:17:23 PM
You still refuse to cite any of your outlandish claims.

I will cite my evidence, but u need to stop listening to all of the biased media u listen to, if u listened to some Christian news programs that actually will report this type of stuff, instead of just saying how good he his, and refuse to actually say anything on how this could harm us.

Also only four of the founders were not Christians, all I have to say is READ THEIR WRITINGS! and stop being fooled by those who are trying to re-write history to make us think that we are not a Christian Nation.

A Christian news source is simply a source with a bias you agree with. Personally I try to find news on important stories from many different viewpoints, gather the commonalities, and synthesize the rest as much as possible in order to try to get closer to the truth of the news story.

America is not a Christian nation. It is a nation founded by (debateably) Christian men. You realize that it is immoral to rebel against a government unless it is breaking God's law, do you not? How was Britain breaking God's laws?

For the second time, I don't think Obama is good. I would not have chosen him to be our president last election (nor would I have chosen McCain). But the fact is that he is our president, and I will respect him as such, and not state the sort of nonsense you are spouting. He is not a socialist. He is merely a do nothing.

Also, I am fairly confident mroe than 4 founders were not Christians. I demand a cite to support your claim. Additionally, when was church attendence by decade (by percentage of populace) in America the lowest? According the my history teacher (I went to a reformed presyterian school), it was the lowest in 1790s. Sounds like the 1790s weren't that bastion of Christendom you think they were.

I Demand that u cite ur evidence! All of the Founders (except for 4) in their own writings declare Jesus Christ as their Lord, Savior and God. And if u Obviously have not read the Declaration of Independence, in there It shows exactly why they declared independence. I strongly suggest u read ur Bible and read the book 'For You they Signed' and then read their actual speeches and writings, Like Washingtons Farwell Address, and the records of our Constutional Congress, and learn from them. Not from those who wish to make us believe that our Nation that was founded on Christian Principles, was a secular nation founded by Diests, I pray that the Lord will open UR eyes to the truth in his word, and to not be fooled by the world.

megamanlan · « **Reply #81 on:** January 08, 2011, 12:29:54 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on January 08, 2011, 12:05:11 AM

Yes, but enforcement of those laws involves depriving people of liberties. Taxation of the populace deprives them of liberties. In effect, any authoritative action taken by the government comes at the expense of the people on whom it subsides. The question of governance, then, is how much power is appropriate for the government to take from its people in order to do what it does.

For the government truly to do nothing more than protect the rights of its citizens falls on one extreme end of the political-philosophical spectrum: libertarianism. It goes from there through conservatism (a limited but practical use of government), through liberal/progressivism (government as an activist force) to socialism (government managing all major aspects of society, particularly economy and production). So in all but a small percentage of people, the prevailing wisdom is that the government should be active in the lives of the citizens in SOME capacity beyond just policing violations.

I must Insist that all of you read the Declaration of Independance and The Constituation, The Gettesburg Address, and Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address, alone w/ Washington's Farewell Address.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #82 on:** January 08, 2011, 12:37:32 AM »

I'm by no means an impartial observer, but you've been making much more crazy claims, with absolutely no citations. The Declaration of independence and the book are good, but at least try to provide something we can read in a reasonable amount of time.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #83 on:** January 08, 2011, 12:41:59 AM »

Quote from: JSB23 on January 07, 2011, 10:37:15 PM

1. Humanism is a philosophy, not a religion
2. How is legalizing gay marriage promoting a religion?
3. I must have missed the part where it's the government's job to enforce religious laws

Can you explain why humanists and their philosophy are not "religious"? I'd be very interested to hear how you decide where a philosophy stops being a philosophy and becomes a religion instead. You do remember that in Acts 17 Paul is speaking to the Epicurean philosophers of Athens and calls them "very religious", right?

I never said it is the government's job to enforce religious laws. Romans 13 doesn't state that either. Please stop misquoting and actually listen to what is being said. The bible states that government's purpose, and the goal of a good ruler, is to promote good and punish evil. The definitions of what is good and evil do not come from "a religion", a church, or a denomination. They come from our Creator, and are found in His word. The reason we will not reach agreement though is because what humanists believe the purpose of government is will never be the same as what the bible states.

JSB23 · « **Reply #84 on:** January 08, 2011, 12:51:38 AM »

Quote from: megamanlan on January 08, 2011, 12:29:54 AM

I must Insist that all of you read the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution, The Gettysburg Address, and Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address, alone w/ Washington's Farewell Address.

Go ahead read the constitution and the bill of rights while your at it and unless the US was founded in the 1860's Lincoln and the Gettysburg address have nothing to do with this

Quote

. Not from those who wish to make us believe that our Nation that was founded on Christian Principles, was a secular nation founded by Diests, I pray that the Lord will open UR eyes to the truth in his word, and to not be fooled by the world.

It's brainwashing when liberals do it, but christian values when conservatives do it

Quote from: stefferweffer on January 08, 2011, 12:41:59 AM

Quote from: JSB23 on January 07, 2011, 10:37:15 PM
1. Humanism is a philosophy, not a religion
2. How is legalizing gay marriage promoting a religion?
3. I must have missed the part where it's the government's job to enforce religious laws
Can you explain why humanists and their philosophy are not "religious"? I'd be very interested to hear how you decide where a philosophy stops being a philosophy and becomes a religion instead. You do remember that in Acts 17 Paul is speaking to the Epicurean philosophers of the day and calls them "very religious", right?

I never said it is the government's job to enforce religious laws. Romans 13 doesn't state that either. Please stop misquoting and actually listen to what is being said. The bible states that government's purpose, and the goal of a good ruler, is to promote good and punish evil. The definitions of what is good and evil do not come from "a religion", a church, or a denomination. They come from our Creator, and are found in His word. The reason we will not reach agreement though is because what humanists believe the purpose of government is will never be the same as what the bible states.

Religion - definition
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Humanism - definition
A secular ideology which espouses reason, ethics, and justice, whilst specifically rejecting supernatural and religious dogma as a basis of morality and decision-making.

Religion embraces the supernatural, humanism rejects it

But what if I don't believe as you do? Should I be held to your god's standards of right and wrong?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #85 on:** January 08, 2011, 12:52:32 AM »

This is me still laughing at you guys.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #86 on:** January 08, 2011, 02:54:44 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 08, 2011, 12:52:32 AM

This is me still laughing at you guys.

An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. It helps to develop logic and mind, regardless of who's "right".

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #87 on:** January 08, 2011, 07:11:40 AM »

Actually for me it's starting to get more sad than humorous.

The Schaef · « **Reply #88 on:** January 08, 2011, 07:34:21 AM »

Quote from: JSB23 on January 08, 2011, 12:51:38 AM

It's brainwashing when liberals do it, but christian values when conservatives do it

Here we go again with claiming politically-driven victimhood. Helpful tip: not everything on the planet is a function of one side of American politics or the other trying to bully their opponents.

Quote

But what if I don't believe as you do? Should I be held to your god's standards of right and wrong?

Would you consider it wrong to be held to that standard? And if so, doesn't that mean you are holding him to your standard of right and wrong? In which case, aren't you oppressing his freedoms?

JSB23 · « **Reply #89 on:** January 08, 2011, 08:20:36 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on January 08, 2011, 07:34:21 AM

Quote
But what if I don't believe as you do? Should I be held to your god's standards of right and wrong?

Would you consider it wrong to be held to that standard? And if so, doesn't that mean you are holding him to your standard of right and wrong? In which case, aren't you oppressing his freedoms?

Answer the question.
Holding me to your standard interferes with my right to live how I want to, which I can do as long as my lifestyle doesn't violate the rights of those around me

Quote from: The Schaef on January 08, 2011, 07:34:21 AM

Quote from: JSB23 on January 08, 2011, 12:51:38 AM
It's brainwashing when liberals do it, but christian values when conservatives do it

Here we go again with claiming politically-driven victimhood. Helpful tip: not everything on the planet is a function of one side of American politics or the other trying to bully their opponents.

I'm just pointing out that if the kid was spouting liberal propaganda because that's all his parents taught him, you would condemn that

Red · « **Reply #90 on:** January 08, 2011, 08:35:52 AM »

You people worry me now. This thread is just scary.

drb1200 · « **Reply #91 on:** January 08, 2011, 09:29:42 AM »

I think Wraith was wondering if a debate would start just by the thread name being "Obama".

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #92 on:** January 08, 2011, 10:31:58 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on January 08, 2011, 02:54:44 AM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 08, 2011, 12:52:32 AM
This is me still laughing at you guys.
An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. It helps to develop logic and mind, regardless of who's "right".

When non-Christians see Christians arguing, I guarantee that they are laughing at us.

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 08, 2011, 07:11:40 AM

Actually for me it's starting to get more sad than humorous.

You'll get no argument from me.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #93 on:** January 08, 2011, 11:10:45 AM »

How interesting that one just decide that religion, by definition, embraces the supernatural. For those who want the truth, here are ALL the definitions of what constitutes a religion:

–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic . religious rites.
8. Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

Didn't take very long to find the following if you Google "Humanism":

Attitudes toward religion:
The original signers of the first Humanist Manifesto of 1933, declared themselves to be religious humanists. Because in their view, traditional religions were failing to meet the needs of their day, the signers of 1933 declared it a major necessity to establish a religion that was a dynamic force to meet the needs of the day. (However, it should be noted that this "religion" did not profess a belief in any god.) Since then two additional Manifestos were written to replace the first.

In the Preface of Humanist Manifesto II, the authors Paul Kurtz and Edwin H. Wilson (1973) affirm that faith and knowledge are required for a hopeful vision for the future. Manifesto II references a section on Religion and states traditional religion renders a disservice to humanity. Manifesto II recognizes the following groups to be part of their naturalistic philosophy: “scientific,” “ethical,” “democratic,” “religious,” and “Marxist” humanism.

The full Humanism logo.
In the 20th century and 21st century, members of Humanist organizations disagree as to whether Humanism is a religion. They categorize themselves in one of three ways. Religious humanists, in the tradition of the earliest Humanist organizations in the UK and US, saw Humanism as fulfilling the traditional social role of religion.[48] Secular Humanists consider all forms of religion, including religious Humanism, to be superseded.[49] In order to sidestep disagreements between these two factions recent Humanist proclamations define Humanism as a life stance, despite the view expressed by the U.S. Supreme Court in a footnote addendum classifying, among others, Secular Humanism a religion that does not believe in God.[50] Regardless of implementation, the philosophy of all three groups rejects deference to supernatural beliefs and addresses ethics without reference to them recognizing ethics as a human enterprise. It is generally compatible with atheism [51] and agnosticism,[52] but being atheist or agnostic does not make one a Humanist.[53]

(So we'll continue to hear humanists to claim that they have no religion, but one need only listen to them to learn otherwise.)

SomeKittens · « **Reply #94 on:** January 08, 2011, 11:34:11 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 08, 2011, 10:31:58 AM

Quote from: SomeKittens on January 08, 2011, 02:54:44 AM
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on January 08, 2011, 12:52:32 AM
This is me still laughing at you guys.
An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. It helps to develop logic and mind, regardless of who's "right".

When non-Christians see Christians arguing, I guarantee that they are laughing at us.

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 08, 2011, 07:11:40 AM
Actually for me it's starting to get more sad than humorous.

You'll get no argument from me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #95 on:** January 08, 2011, 12:39:49 PM »

Quote

I Demand that u cite ur evidence! All of the Founders (except for 4) in their own writings declare Jesus Christ as their Lord, Savior and God. And if u Obviously have not read the Declaration of Independence, in there It shows exactly why they declared independence. I strongly suggest u read ur Bible and read the book 'For You they Signed' and then read their actual speeches and writings, Like Washingtons Farwell Address, and the records of our Constutional Congress, and learn from them. Not from those who wish to make us believe that our Nation that was founded on Christian Principles, was a secular nation founded by Diests, I pray that the Lord will open UR eyes to the truth in his word, and to not be fooled by the world.

It would be nice if you would type properly. "Ur" is not that much shorter than "Your". Thanks.

Time for a quick logic lesson. I actually don't really need to cite too much. I have mostly been asserting negatives (America is not a Christian Nation, Obama is not a Socialist, etc). You can not truly cite evidence for something that doesn't exist. For example, if God did not exist, and you demanded evidence from me to prove that God did not exist, what would I show you? I can not show you something that does not exist. On the contrary, if you say that God does exist, and I demand evidence, you must show evidence that God exists, because since he exists, there is evidence to show. Negatives do not require evidence to support them, they require a contrary statement to refute them. Therefore, you must prove Obama is a Socialist and that America is a Christian Nation by providing support.

I have read the Declaration of Independence. I did not ask why they declared independance. I asked if Britain was violation God's law, because if they were not, then the Revolution was an immoral war according to the Bible.

It was not a Christian Nation. It was a nation found by (mostly Christians). There is a huge difference. Have you ever heard of seperation of Church and State? Or that all are free to practice their own religion regardless of what that may be? Those are in the Constitution, or did your Christian news source not tell you about those?

JSB23 · « **Reply #96 on:** January 08, 2011, 02:00:30 PM »

@Steffer (because I'm not quoting that huge block of text)
Really, that's the battle you're choosing to fight?
Also you should probably read your evidence before posting it 'cause

Quote

recent Humanist proclamations define Humanism as a life stance,

I don't know why you decided to make this the heart of your campaign but either way good for you

.
Now let's get back on topic since you ignored it the first time I ask you again

Quote

But what if I don't believe as you do? Should I be held to your god's standards of right and wrong?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #97 on:** January 08, 2011, 02:20:58 PM »

Quote

Have you ever heard of seperation of Church and State? Or that all are free to practice their own religion regardless of what that may be? Those are in the Constitution, or did your Christian news source not tell you about those?

lol oops there goes every last shred of your credibility.

JSB23 · « **Reply #98 on:** January 08, 2011, 02:31:39 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 08, 2011, 02:20:58 PM

Quote
Have you ever heard of seperation of Church and State? Or that all are free to practice their own religion regardless of what that may be? Those are in the Constitution, or did your Christian news source not tell you about those?
lol oops there goes every last shred of your credibility.

He's referring to the first amendment, it's commonly known as the separation of church and state.
Oops there goes your credibility, (I mean honestly it would have taken you all of fifteen seconds to look that up)

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #99 on:** January 08, 2011, 02:40:42 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 08, 2011, 02:20:58 PM

Quote
Have you ever heard of seperation of Church and State? Or that all are free to practice their own religion regardless of what that may be? Those are in the Constitution, or did your Christian news source not tell you about those?
lol oops there goes every last shred of your credibility.

The theory of it is there. The 1st ammendment makes it clear the government is not to support one religion over another - this is commonly seen as a seperation of church and state.

News:

Author Topic: Re: Obama (Read 18937 times)

The Schaef

The Schaef

drb1200