Author Topic: petition to end big deck t2 wanna be decks in t1 (Read 15068 times)

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #25 on:** December 14, 2010, 03:32:05 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on December 14, 2010, 03:29:50 PM

Quote from: christiangamer25 on December 14, 2010, 03:19:10 PM
the soul drought aint as big as an issue as duplicates oh look i get rid of something blam its back and ive exhausted the resources getting rid of it the first time its just plain cheap to have duplicates in t1 and thats my opinion period.

Yes, but they have the same hand limit as you per turn, and the problem with having uniques in your deck is that you can't put them both down to reduce your hand size. A player might be able to put down a TSA right behind the one you Martyr, or he might be forced to discard his other one without playing it at all, because he has a handful of better cards.

This is why 100+ deckbuilding has to be more than just a 2x'd 50 carder. You have to take into account the unique rule, and maximize the effectiveness of generics.

The Guardian · « **Reply #26 on:** December 14, 2010, 03:38:15 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 14, 2010, 02:19:59 PM

The odds of drawing a Mayhem in the Openng hand in a standard 50-63 card deck are actually higher than the odds of soul burying in a 150 card deck.

Odds of drawing Mayhem opening hand, 56 card deck with 7 Lost Souls:
1/49+1/48+1/47+1/46+1/45+1/44+1/43+1/42=17.6%

Odds of drawing 0 Lost Souls opening hand, 56 card deck with 7 Lost Souls:
49/56*48/55*47/54*46/53*45/52*44/51*43/50*42/49=31.7%

Odds of drawing 0 Lost Souls opening hand, 105 card deck with 14 Lost Souls:
91/105*90/104*89/103*88/102*87/101*86/100*85/99*84/98=30.5%

Odds of drawing 0 Lost Souls opening hand, 154 card deck with 21 Lost Souls:
133/154*132/153*131/152*130/151*129/150*128/149*127/148*126/147=30.0%

Oh noes...those darn 56 card decks are burying Lost Souls...what are we going to do?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #27 on:** December 14, 2010, 03:41:07 PM »

no ls on turn 1 is not the same as all lost souls on the bottom.

Daniel TS RED · « **Reply #28 on:** December 14, 2010, 03:43:46 PM »

Run RTS 100 times and Mayhem will be in your hand over 17.6% I would think. It seems Mayhem and Emp Nero are favorites of RTS on the first draw.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #29 on:** December 14, 2010, 03:45:40 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on December 14, 2010, 03:41:07 PM

no ls on turn 1 is not the same as all lost souls on the bottom.

Lambo's point is more along the lines of what I was saying. It is more likely to have a first turn Mayhem then say, 5-10 turns of soul drought from a 150, which would be half the deck of a 50-63.

The Schaef · « **Reply #30 on:** December 14, 2010, 03:47:35 PM »

A slight correction: every Lost Soul drawn is replaced, so consider those transparent in your deck since you draw right through them anyway.

The correct formula for Mayhem is:
(1/43)+(1/42)+(1/41)+(1/40)+(1/39)+(1/38)+(1/37)+(1/36) = 20.3%

stefferweffer · « **Reply #31 on:** December 14, 2010, 03:47:53 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on December 14, 2010, 03:38:15 PM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 14, 2010, 02:19:59 PM
The odds of drawing a Mayhem in the Openng hand in a standard 50-63 card deck are actually higher than the odds of soul burying in a 150 card deck.

Odds of drawing Mayhem opening hand, 56 card deck with 7 Lost Souls:
1/49+1/48+1/47+1/46+1/45+1/44+1/43+1/42=17.6%

Odds of drawing 0 Lost Souls opening hand, 105 card deck with 14 Lost Souls:
91/105*90/104*89/103*88/102*87/101*86/100*85/99*84/98=30.5%

Yes, and if you have Mayhem, Am Slave, Hopper, Hur, Woman at the Well, and Harvest Time in your 56 card deck, what are the odds that you will draw one of these 6 ways that helps you get a lost soul (and maybe more cards I can't think of right now)? I'm just saying that with the awesome card set we have now, if a player loses just because of lost souls drought, it might be that they didn't add the right cards to decrease this problem, in my opinion.

The Guardian · « **Reply #32 on:** December 14, 2010, 03:48:59 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on December 14, 2010, 03:47:35 PM

A slight correction: every Lost Soul drawn is replaced, so consider those transparent in your deck since you draw right through them anyway.

The correct formula for Mayhem is:
(1/43)+(1/42)+(1/41)+(1/40)+(1/39)+(1/38)+(1/37)+(1/36) = 20.3%

For a 50 card deck yes, but I specified 56.

The Guardian · « **Reply #33 on:** December 14, 2010, 03:55:22 PM »

Quote

if a player loses just because of lost souls drought, it might be that they didn't add the right cards to decrease this problem, in my opinion.

I lost a T2 game at a tournament recently due to Lost Soul drought. My opponent drew 3 LS in the first 12-14 rounds (can't recall exactly how many). One of these was buried--the other 2 I rescued.

Meanwhile, I drew about half my Lost Souls in the same time frame and while I stalled a couple turns, I was drawing mostly offense, which was for the most part useless. It's get better too because my opponent drew almost zero defense, (and what little he did draw, I easily overcame) AND I was using a deck that can typically hide Lost Souls (Susanna for offense/Divination and Death of Unrighteous on defense).

Bottom line is that droughts happen with all sizes of decks, not just the biggies.

The Schaef · « **Reply #34 on:** December 14, 2010, 03:59:33 PM »

ok so he was correct to begin with, my apologies.

But arguing that Mayhem is a more likely draw just argues against the "problem" of Lost Soul burying. The more turns you go, the lower the odds.

The odds of no Lost Souls in 2 turns is 19%.
In 3 turns, 11.6%.
In 4 turns, 7%.

So not only is it unlikely for Lost Souls to be buried on the bottom of a 105-card deck 10% of the time, it's not even likely to go four turns without seeing them (out of the 29 it takes to draw through the deck) 10% of the time. By turn eight you're down to less than 1%.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #35 on:** December 14, 2010, 04:04:34 PM »

I agree that size does not necessarily mitigate drought. But deck size DOES affect how "deep" those souls could be. For example, if my opponent uses a 50 card deck, and happened to get all 7 lost souls on the bottom, then after his opening hand of 8 he has 42 cards left. This is 14 turns, barring any shuffles and any extra card draws by him. I agree that the game could be over by 14 turns anyway (hence my recommendation to include most/all of the cards I mentioned to bring those cards out).

But if he has a 105 card deck with 14 lost souls, and by some horrible act of fate those 14 lost souls are on the bottom, After the opening hand of 8 cards they have 97 cards left, meaning it will be 33 turns before you see those lost souls!

Now this is an extreme hypothetical, but I have personally always felt that the random lost soul draw mechanic was Redemption's weakest element. But they make this much better by making cards to deal with it.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #36 on:** December 14, 2010, 04:09:53 PM »

I lost a T1 game because of lost soul drought with Ammy Slave and Hopper in my deck. It was against a 50-56. Just plain bad luck.

I ran a 105 deck last tournament and always had plenty of souls to rescue. Although my defense managed to stay hidden during one game...and it was over 50% of my deck.

The Guardian · « **Reply #37 on:** December 14, 2010, 04:10:39 PM »

Quote

but I have personally always felt that the random lost soul draw mechanic was Redemption's weakest element.

I actually agree with this also--it's one of the major reasons I switched to playing Type 2 as my preferred category as an early Lost Soul drought is easier to overcome in Type 2.

Sometimes there's games where you cannot possibly win because of the way the cards fall, and you're left hoping your opponent makes a mistake that lets you back in the game.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #38 on:** December 14, 2010, 04:13:26 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on December 14, 2010, 04:09:53 PM

I ran a 105 deck last tournament and always had plenty of souls to rescue. Although my defense managed to stay hidden during one game...and it was over 50% of my deck.

"HERP DERP DURR I'M GOING TO DESTRUCTION WASH BASIN WHEN I KNOW MY OPPONENT HAS THREE NAILS HERPPPPPPP".

I wouldn't call that hidden ;O

The Schaef · « **Reply #39 on:** December 14, 2010, 04:24:54 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on December 14, 2010, 04:04:34 PM

I agree that size does not necessarily mitigate drought. But deck size DOES affect how "deep" those souls could be. For example, if my opponent uses a 50 card deck, and happened to get all 7 lost souls on the bottom, then after his opening hand of 8 he has 42 cards left. This is 14 turns, barring any shuffles and any extra card draws by him. I agree that the game could be over by 14 turns anyway (hence my recommendation to include most/all of the cards I mentioned to bring those cards out).

But if he has a 105 card deck with 14 lost souls, and by some horrible act of fate those 14 lost souls are on the bottom, After the opening hand of 8 cards they have 97 cards left, meaning it will be 33 turns before you see those lost souls!

For starters, remember that Lost Souls are drawn through, so you only have 12 turns left on a 50-card deck, not 14. But that also means your 33-turn deck is actually a 29-turn deck. And remember that in the early going (first four turns) the odds favor the smaller deck slightly. But in terms of bigger decks holding out longer, the difference in Lost Souls means you're only giving back one turn for every six or seven turns the game lasts. And while it's statistically possible to deck out without him drawing a single Lost Soul, you're talking 25,000 to 1 odds.

Not to discount the "weaker" random aspect of the Lost Soul draw, but that's the nature of the beast with this particular game. It's not a pure strategy battle royale like other card games: the random element of LS draw and Dominant play disrupts normal statistics as a way to allow newer or less-experienced players a bit more of a chance against the guys who have five copies of every gold card.

Some people might argue that this chaotic aspect detracts from the quality of the game, but when fun and fellowship are given as priorities, that's the tradeoff you make to have a game more fun and less cutthroat. That's like saying Apples to Apples is a lesser-quality game because a judge can rule that Texas is a better fit for the word "big" than The Moon, even though statistically, the moon is bigger than Texas.

The Guardian · « **Reply #40 on:** December 14, 2010, 04:32:15 PM »

Quote

Not to discount the "weaker" random aspect of the Lost Soul draw, but that's the nature of the beast with this particular game. It's not a pure strategy battle royale like other card games: the random element of LS draw and Dominant play disrupts normal statistics as a way to allow newer or less-experienced players a bit more of a chance against the guys who have five copies of every gold card.

Some people might argue that this chaotic aspect detracts from the quality of the game, but when fun and fellowship are given as priorities, that's the tradeoff you make to have a game more fun and less cutthroat. That's like saying Apples to Apples is a lesser-quality game because a judge can rule that Texas is a better fit for the word "big" than The Moon, even though statistically, the moon is bigger than Texas.

Well put, Schaef.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #41 on:** December 14, 2010, 04:37:14 PM »

Good points on all counts, and thanks for correcting the math.

Please don't misunderstand my comments as "dissing" the game. You are correct that more even odds is what the designers had in mind and for good reason. I was only saying that there are few game moments more frustrating than having a lot of great cards in hand and nothing to do with them, or worse have to discard some because your opponent either won't draw any lost souls, and/or YOU are also not drawing lost souls and thus not blocking as often as your hand would like for you to

The Schaef · « **Reply #42 on:** December 14, 2010, 04:49:16 PM »

I'm not sure anyone thought of it as a "diss"; many people on both sides of the issue agreed with your general notion. It just is what it is, and some people will like it, and some won't. In terms of pure strategy, "weaker" is the best description.

There's a certain irony to having this as my CCG of choice because I generally am not a big fan of chaotic elements. I like games with little-to-no luck, or with ways to mitigate the luck factor (which I guess you could argue Redemption has some of that). So I tend to stay away from dice games or games with random draw-a-card-that-totally-screws-you elements. Games I do like include To Court the King, which is dicey-randomy like Yahtzee but what's awesome is that you use your die results to "buy" cards that give you special bonuses: adding more dice, changing die results, etc. Another one that interested me is Battleball (cyborg football in the future) because the different players have different-sided dice (d6-d20), and the high roll gives more movement on the field but the low number wins on attempts to tackle. So there's a built-in balancing element to the die chances because some players can travel far but are likely to get hammered, while others don't move much at all but will take you down hard.

The weirdest one to me is Liar's Dice (or Pirate Dice if you saw the movie), because I don't like bluffing games, and dice games don't like me. And yet, I ALWAYS want to play this if someone offers.

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #43 on:** December 14, 2010, 04:49:33 PM »

yeah ill agree good point schaeff i just spend so much time absorbed in tweaking and trying to master my decks that when i run into such nonsense i end up taking it as a personal asasault on my intelligence

The Schaef · « **Reply #44 on:** December 14, 2010, 04:57:06 PM »

I wouldn't worry too much about that. It's a card game, so chance will always be a factor, and a little bit more in this game. Good deck-building relies on coming up with ways to minimize the impact that chance has on your game, but then you have to make sure you have ways to score points also, or you'll have the least random deck ever to score no points. So you just try to find the best balance you can, and accept that sometimes, chance will bite you anyway.

But then, I'm a lot more laid back about my gaming; I seldom place high in tournaments and I don't worry a lot about my record. As long as I'm winning a fair amount of the time, and competitive in the games that I lose, and not just getting run out of the building every time, then I'm having a fun time. So yeah, I'll probably tell you hey, you lose some of the time, big whoop. Jonathan might tell you not to listen to me, and go straight for the throat.

JSB23 · « **Reply #45 on:** December 14, 2010, 04:59:04 PM »

Quote from: christiangamer25 on December 14, 2010, 01:37:23 PM

once again says somebody who has never suffered the pain of abom WHICH NEEDS BANNED

cough Nathan, swords to plowshares, evil discard LS, Hezekiah, faith as a mustard seed, every negate and discard enhancement ever cough

Sorry I had something in my throat

Just because you lost one game to a big deck doesn't mean they're broken

SomeKittens · « **Reply #46 on:** December 14, 2010, 05:40:14 PM »

Quote from: JSB23 on December 14, 2010, 04:59:04 PM

every negate and discard enhancement ever cough

Those won't work, most work on the last card in battle.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #47 on:** December 14, 2010, 05:51:32 PM »

I prefer I am Grace, since it can go in any deck and is less likely to get sniped. Nathan will be CM'd before Abom is played, depending on when he's drawn.

The Guardian · « **Reply #48 on:** December 14, 2010, 06:39:43 PM »

I am Grace is definitely good. I put it in nearly every T2 deck I build for things like Abom, IoJ, and the annoying Horsies...

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #49 on:** December 14, 2010, 06:56:06 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on December 14, 2010, 04:24:54 PM

That's like saying Apples to Apples is a lesser-quality game because a judge can rule that Texas is a better fit for the word "big" than The Moon, even though statistically, the moon is bigger than Texas.

That is sooooo frustrating when people pick cards like that in that game!!!

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Author Topic: petition to end big deck t2 wanna be decks in t1 (Read 15068 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

The Schaef

Warrior_Monk

Rawrlolsauce!

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

Warrior_Monk