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I would like to see my team go for it on 4th down more often than they do.

But not from your own 30, when you're winning by 6, with two minutes to play, and your opponent only has one time out.

I would like to see my team go for it on 4th down when they have little to lose. In this case, losing the game was more than a little.

Exactly, I am fine with coaches groing a bigger pair, ...

I'm assuming you meant grow a bigger pear, however gardening skills have nothing to do with coaching skills unless you are privy to some secret study that has not been made public.

Pear Bryant, perhaps?

It doesn't matter what yard line you are on.  If you are concerned about what yard line you are on then you are generally more focused on losing.  I don't care if I'm on my 1-yard line.  If I have a play that 80% of the time I get 2 yards and a first down and leads to a win with kneel-downs, then I'll take that over 65-75% chance of winning when I give Peyton the ball back when my defense has been porous.  The Patriots players, to a man, know that Belicheck is going to give them the best chance to win.  They supported his decision.

Check out this article.

I also abhor coaches who make mental mistakes that a toddler could figure out.  The Lion's head coach pulled a few boners during their game with Minnesota, which they had a chance to WIN.  At the end of the first half, the Lions had an opportunity to go for a TD with 8 seconds left.  That's plenty of time to throw in the end zone, and if it's incomplete, THEN you kick the field goal.  But NO!  The head coach trots the field goal unit onto the field.  I turned to my friend, a Lion's fan, and said, "I'm sorry.  Game over."  AND HE AGREED!  Several times in the second half the Lions had 4th and shorts only to punt...EVEN when they were in Vikings territory!  The Lions were actually averaging over 5 yards per play at that point.  Holy Cow!  You're 1-7.  You have nothing to lose!  Go for it!  Give your players the message that your tired of having that franchise be a bunch of losers.  Give them the message you want to do something about it and you trust your players to make the plays!  Instead, he sent the message that, "Hey, we're still a bunch of losers, but I'm going to make the game look closer than it really is and save my job."

Playing to WIN is very, very different than playing not to lose.  It's all mental and can give your team the edge.

Right - But thats not what Scott said - Very good article Scott -
Also - After I posted earlier I went and watched the replay's about 20 times, and every time I watch it, I become more convinced that Bill made the right call - And here's why - He got the first down. Faulk bobbles it yes - But he regains control before he's hit. The reason the Pats lost that game is because of Bill's poor clock management - If he had had a timeout he could have challenged - and I think he would have won.

Quote from: STAMP on November 16, 2009, 10:03:03 PM

Playing to WIN is very, very different than playing not to lose.  It's all mental and can give your team the edge.

Except that it didn't. They lost.

True.  But based on the odds they win the next four.  Whereas playing it safe may net a 3-2 record.

If the chances go up to 100%, then some team goes 19-0 every year and everyone stops watching the NFL.  There will always be a chance to lose.  But if you maximize your team's chances to win over time, you can turn a franchise around to a winner.  If that weren't true then there's a whole lot of people that are looking at one nasty surprise when they cash in their 401k at retirement.   

Quote from: STAMP on November 16, 2009, 10:03:03 PM

It doesn't matter what yard line you are on.

So no difference to you between your 30 yard line and the opponent's 30 yard line?  If I had a choice between making their team drive 30 yards and making them drive 70 yards, I take 70.

And this is from a guy that thinks there should be more four-down football.

But that's not the point.  My decision comes to either I run a play that 80% of the time gets me the yards I need which guarantees the win, or take my chances on extending the game and having chances that are less than 80%.  By saying there's a choice between giving your opponent 70 or 30 yards to score a TD is focusing on the 20% chance of losing.  That sends the message that you're playing not to lose at that point in time (where your chances are higher) versus waiting later to see what your chances are of not losing.  And the reason coaches are afraid is that they know they'll get grilled in the press which makes their job situation risky.  If the Patriots win that game, the best that Belicheck could expect from the press is a "wow, that was risky, but you got lucky."

Quote from: crustpope on November 16, 2009, 08:42:49 PM

You know where the word "Mascots" comes from dont you?  it is from the spanish word Mascotas for "Pet".  Basically you are emasculating a group of people and making them pets for your pleasure.

This suggests that the mascot is emasculated for the benefit of the team, when in fact many mascots are vicious or powerful animals depicting the ferocity of the team in question.  It's an empowering symbol, not one that detracts.

So, your argument is that all these powerful mascots are really scarry, and dangerous..underneath the cuddly costume?  So you must be terrified of the goofy looking mascot for the Cleveland Indians?  What about Chief Iliniwik for the Illini?  These are not empowering symbols, they are sideways shots at a minority culture.  Perhaps I should start a team named the El Paso Wetbacks, The mascot could be a Mexican sleeping under a large sombrero.  That would be a nearly one to one comparison for Cleveland and Chief Wahoo.

You are half right.  Most teams choose a powerful or Ferocious Animal....but we arent talking about "animals" here...or have you simply robbed the native americans of ALL of their dignity? 

As I have said before, If you want to work with the culture and honor the culture, then do that.  Other team mascots that are named for cultural heritage icons such as the NE Patriots are treated with dignity.  Caricatures of Native Americans are often made to look foolish.

Okay but seriously.... how about them bengals!?

It's amazing to think that they would get a first round bye if the play-offs started today...

They remind me of my Vikings--very tough defense and a well-balanced offense. Overall I think our offensive talent is superior though. Should be a great game when they visit us in the Dome.

Whoa now! Don't go hatting on my Terps!!!

Fear the Turtle! Unstoppable Starts Here! Other nonsense we add for 250,000 in advertising but then increase fees 10-12% due to the state giving us a budget cut....(don't get me started...)

As to this:

And all of this "outrage" from native Americans has all come up in the last 20 years.  People chose those mascots many decades before that.  

The earliest date I have seen has been 1968 for Native American protests. And to be fair, Native American, of all of the minority groups in this nation have been given the short end of the stick in the name of "manifest destiny". Yes, slavery was a terrible, terrible thing, but last I checked we did not create government plots of land to force African Americans to and then become supremely surprised when the rates of suicide, drunkenness and the like are astronomical among the Native Americans. Perception is a big thing, and other groups that have been used for mascots that had any inkling of racism have been changed, so why should Native Americans be any different?

The Patriots players, to a man, know that Belicheck is going to give them the best chance to win.  They supported his decision.

For the record, the Patriots who want to keep their job support Bill's decisions publicly. Ask Richard Seymour about what happens when you counter the coach.

And the reason coaches are afraid is that they know they'll get grilled in the press which makes their job situation risky.  If the Patriots win that game, the best that Belicheck could expect from the press is a "wow, that was risky, but you got lucky."

Considering Bill's attitude during Spygate, I really don't think he is concerned with the press grill.

So no difference to you between your 30 yard line and the opponent's 30 yard line?  If I had a choice between making their team drive 30 yards and making them drive 70 yards, I take 70.

I agree with Schaef here. Although I can name plenty of times that I wished my team would go for it on fourth, this was definitely not one of those times. There is a time for everything under the sun - except going for it on 4th & 2 from your own 30 when you're winning by 6 with two minutes to play and your opponent only has one timeout.

Quote from: STAMP on November 16, 2009, 10:03:03 PM

The Patriots players, to a man, know that Belicheck is going to give them the best chance to win.  They supported his decision.

For the record, the Patriots who want to keep their job support Bill's decisions publicly. Ask Richard Seymour about what happens when you counter the coach.

I want to keep my job.  I publicly support the "Bill" who leads my company.  If I didn't, or thought I had a better way of selling pears, I imagine I would be working elsewhere.   

Quote from: STAMP on November 16, 2009, 11:31:50 PM

And the reason coaches are afraid is that they know they'll get grilled in the press which makes their job situation risky.  If the Patriots win that game, the best that Belicheck could expect from the press is a "wow, that was risky, but you got lucky."

Considering Bill's attitude during Spygate, I really don't think he is concerned with the press grill.

I agree with you that Belicheck is not concerned with how he is viewed by the press.  But the general reference of "coaches" I made would include most in the establishment.

Quote from: The Schaef on November 16, 2009, 11:07:24 PM

So no difference to you between your 30 yard line and the opponent's 30 yard line?  If I had a choice between making their team drive 30 yards and making them drive 70 yards, I take 70.

I agree with Schaef here. Although I can name plenty of times that I wished my team would go for it on fourth, this was definitely not one of those times. There is a time for everything under the sun - except going for it on 4th & 2 from your own 30 when you're winning by 6 with two minutes to play and your opponent only has one timeout.

Let see if I can use an analogy: you feel ill and the doctor tells you that there are a couple of treatments that he can use to start helping you feel better.  One way is almost immediate while the other may take several days.  The former has some possible major side effects that can occur while the latter has minimal side effects.  The doctor does add that the major side effects for the former treatment are rare.

Which treatment do you choose?

The doctor then reveals that the first treatment is a shot with a very large needle whereas the second treatment is a pill.

Now which do you choose?   

You forgot to mention that the first treatment's "major side effect" is dying.

I choose the second treatment.

Oh sure, just like every NFL fan who thinks they're dying and the world is coming to an end when their team loses.