Author Topic: NFL Power Rankings and 1st quarter NFL discussion topics (Read 69761 times)

lightningninja · « **Reply #25 on:** October 11, 2009, 05:32:11 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on October 11, 2009, 05:13:48 PM

Peyton Manning is 10x the quarterback Brett Favre is, was, or ever will be.

What?!

Just this season alone Brett Favre has as many TDs and INTs as Peyton Manning, and he's not as good as he used to be.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #26 on:** October 11, 2009, 06:24:21 PM »

Manning: 342 TDs (1.9 p/g), 168 INTs (0.93 p/g) in 180 games (averaging 260.9 yds/game) (as of prior to this week)
Favre: 472 TDs (1.7 p/g), 311 INTs (1.12 p/g) in 277 games (averaging 238.1 yds/game) (as of prior to this week)

The empirical data does not lie, and this is excluding all comparisons of their field general skills, where even the greatest Favre apologist has to concede to Mannning.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #27 on:** October 11, 2009, 06:53:17 PM »

Freaking penalties are KILLING the Ravens.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #28 on:** October 11, 2009, 07:01:14 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on October 11, 2009, 06:53:17 PM

Freaking penalties are KILLING the Ravens.

It's ok. If anyone knows how to deal with penalties, it's upper tier men of integrity like Ray Lewis.

lightningninja · « **Reply #29 on:** October 11, 2009, 07:26:54 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on October 11, 2009, 06:24:21 PM

Manning: 342 TDs (1.9 p/g), 168 INTs (0.93 p/g) in 180 games (averaging 260.9 yds/game) (as of prior to this week)
Favre: 472 TDs (1.7 p/g), 311 INTs (1.12 p/g) in 277 games (averaging 238.1 yds/game) (as of prior to this week)

The empirical data does not lie, and this is excluding all comparisons of their field general skills, where even the greatest Favre apologist has to concede to Mannning.

No, it doesn't lie... but it doesn't say it all, either. Brett Favre, until this year, has never had a good defensive line. He's never had a good RB (arguably Ahman Green but he fumbled too much), and never had a hall of fame, or even great, reciever. He makes his recievers look great though.

You also have to consider defenses, how much time they have with the ball, and other things. You can't throw down some statistics, saying that Manning is slightly better, and act like it's a fact that Manning is better. That's simply not true.

And I'm not sure what you mean by field general skills. If you mean how Manning calls amazing audibles and adjustments, okay, I'll give you that. I love Manning for that.

But Brett Favre is also the greatest comeback quarterback of all time. Manning never would have made that pass in game 3. Brett Favre knows how to win, and pull a team together with :05 left in the fourth quarter. No statistic can match that.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #30 on:** October 11, 2009, 10:03:28 PM »

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=3392
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=3401

Read this for why 4th quarter comebacks isn't that great of a stat. This also ignores what Favre probably did to get his team in the hole (throwing his Interceptions, making bad throwing decisions early in teh game, etc).

You say Favre never had a good running back. It's arguable that Dan Marino never had a running back ever. Only one time did he have a running back rush for a 1000 yards while he was the quarterback. By comparison, Favre has had 10 running backs reach the 1000 yard mark, and it will be 11 after this year when AP inevitably breaks the barrier. Manning has had 7 thus far, and might make 8 this year, it remains to be seen. Favre has worked with the best backs and his averages still don't look as good.

Favre has also had comparable wide receivers to work with, with the exception of Harrison. Freeman, Franks, Sharpe, Driver, the early years of Jennings, and Green are all comparable to the receivers Peyton has been giving the ball to.

Manning is the single best defensive scheme reader to ever the game. You agree, so I'll leave it at that.

Favre isn't the greatest comeback QB of all time, even if that were a measureable stat. Marino and Elway have him beat, no matter how you measure it.

And Manning would have never made the pass in game 3 because he'd never get in that situation.

crustpope · « **Reply #31 on:** October 12, 2009, 12:45:59 AM »

Quote from: lightningninja on October 11, 2009, 07:26:54 PM

Brett Favre knows how to win, and pull a team together with :05 left in the fourth quarter. No statistic can match that.

What and Manning doesn't? We are watching probably the greatest two minute drill QB of all time. Manning does more, with less, and makes fewer mistakes than Favre.

Dont get me wrong, I love Favre and have TONS of respect for him, but barring a serious injury, ALL of Favres Records will belong to Peyton.

True, Manning Had Harrison and still has Reggie Wayne, but this years Run is with Great Wide recievers such as Austin Collie and Pierrr Garcon. Two Rookies who get to play because a second year player (Gonzalez) is out for several games. Manning makes recievers look good and can work with anyone who has the skill to play in the NFL. He doesnt need a platoon of Randy Moss's to win games.

BTW, I have to re-do my list given todays games:
1. Colts - Yeah, I have to say they are for real. They will win their division and probably a first round bye with home field advantage.
2. Giants -A solid game today..but they were playing the raiders...
3. Vikings - Favre could easily lead this team to a superbowl.
4. Saints - Pretty good, but lets see who comes out of the Superdome unbeaten next week, the Giants or Saints...I am betting it will be the Giants.
5. Denver - That was a signature win against the Patriots today. They are starting to make me believe in the value of Wild horses.
Honorable mention -
Watch out for the Bengals. Their last second heroics against Baltimore was HUGE. couple that with a freak loss to denver and a signature win vs. the steelers and you have to admit that they are doing something good in Cincinnati.

lightningninja · « **Reply #32 on:** October 12, 2009, 12:57:54 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on October 11, 2009, 10:03:28 PM

This also ignores what Favre probably did to get his team in the hole (throwing his Interceptions, making bad throwing decisions early in teh game, etc).

I'll refer to above when crustpope says "Manning will break all of his records." I know, and that includes interceptions. Why do you think that the Colts have only one 1 super bowl with Peyton Manning? Because he throws interceptions, just like Favre. This is not a one-sided argument.

Quote

You say Favre never had a good running back...

Yep. A thousand yards doesn't make a great running back. Edgerrin James was one of the top backs when he first played from about 200-2003.

Quote

Favre has also had comparable wide receivers to work with, with the exception of Harrison. Freeman, Franks, Sharpe, Driver, the early years of Jennings, and Green are all comparable to the receivers Peyton has been giving the ball to.

Yep, and you forgot Brooks. Now look at Greg Jennings. Isn't he great. Oh wait... that couldn't be because he doesn't have Favre... And Driver doesn't have as good of stats... hm... I wonder why. All of these players were GREAT because Brett Favre is GREAT.

Quote

Favre isn't the greatest comeback QB of all time, even if that were a measureable stat. Marino and Elway have him beat, no matter how you measure it.

I'm not sure how you can say this when the links that YOU provided say that Favre is above Marino.

Okay... I'll put Elway above him. He'll still be better than Peyton Manning is.

Quote

And Manning would have never made the pass in game 3 because he'd never get in that situation.

Wait.... you're really saying that Manning has never won/lost a game in the last seconds by a TD? Seriously? Everyone gets in those situation, to deny that is ridiculous. But Brett Favre gets out of them.

The Guardian · « **Reply #33 on:** October 12, 2009, 01:04:45 AM »

Quote

BTW, I have to re-do my list given todays games:
1. Colts - Yeah, I have to say they are for real. They will win their division and probably a first round bye with home field advantage.
2. Giants -A solid game today..but they were playing the raiders...
3. Vikings - Favre could easily lead this team to a superbowl.
4. Saints - Pretty good, but lets see who comes out of the Superdome unbeaten next week, the Giants or Saints...I am betting it will be the Giants.
5. Denver - That was a signature win against the Patriots today. They are starting to make me believe in the value of Wild horses.
Honorable mention -
Watch out for the Bengals. Their last second heroics against Baltimore was HUGE. couple that with a freak loss to denver and a signature win vs. the steelers and you have to admit that they are doing something good in Cincinnati.

Colts are definitely number 1. They do have a slightly suspect defense however...even though they beat Miami, they needed a legendary performance by Peyton to do it because their defense couldnt get Miami off the field...

The Giants and Vikings both beat up on some rebuilding teams this week so I think it's a toss up for #2 and 3. The Vikings did steal one against San Fran, but they have a solid win against Green Bay and the Giants have had a pretty easy schedule thus far.

Saints defense has been showing up, can they maintain that is the question.

I agree Denver is looking better and in that weak division, they just about have a play-off spot wrapped up...

I definitely agree about the Bengals--wins against Green Bay (at GB), Pittsburgh and Baltimore (at Bal) tell me this team is for real.

The Guardian · « **Reply #34 on:** October 12, 2009, 01:12:10 AM »

Another topic for discussion:

There are 9 undefeated/winless teams left. Who among them will be the last to keep their perfect/imperfect season going?

The Haves
Colts
Broncos
Vikings
Giants
Saints

The Have Nots...
Chiefs
Titans
Buccaneers
Rams

Professoralstad · « **Reply #35 on:** October 12, 2009, 12:16:28 PM »

Interestingly enough, Week 1 I remember commenting on the Broncos/Bengals game. The score was 7-6 with a few minutes to go in the fourth quarter. I said something to the effect of: "Boy, that's a low scoring game. But given the two teams that are playing, I don't think it has much to do with great defenses, they're both just terrible."

Boy was I wrong.

Anyway, I'd have to offhand say the Giants will go undefeated the longest, though I haven't really looked at the upcoming schedules of all the teams. I'd like to say the Vikings of course, but

A) You might not believe in jinxes, but I'm a Vikings fan...I was there in 1998 when the commentators said that Gary Anderson hadn't missed a field goal all season, and 42 yards should be no problem...

B) While the Vikings have looked really good most of the time in most of their games, there have been a lot of miscues on their parts that I teams better than who we've played can take advantage of. If the Rams weren't so ridiculously awful yesterday, it would have been a much closer game. Two goal-to-go fumbles and one interception? They handed us the game.

That said, I sure wouldn't mind seeing the Vikes go undefeated the longest. But we've got three games left against two very good division rivals in GB and Chicago, so we'll see how it goes.

From what I saw yesterday, the Rams could easily be this year's version of Detroit. I would say they will definitely go the longest without a win, and could possibly go 0-16.

STAMP · « **Reply #36 on:** October 12, 2009, 12:20:57 PM »

It's looking more and more like a Manning-Manning Super Bowl.

crustpope · « **Reply #37 on:** October 12, 2009, 02:59:55 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on October 12, 2009, 12:57:54 AM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on October 11, 2009, 10:03:28 PM
This also ignores what Favre probably did to get his team in the hole (throwing his Interceptions, making bad throwing decisions early in teh game, etc).
I'll refer to above when crustpope says "Manning will break all of his records." I know, and that includes interceptions. Why do you think that the Colts have only one 1 super bowl with Peyton Manning? Because he throws interceptions, just like Favre. This is not a one-sided argument.

Are you Serious? Peyton would have to play until he was 60 in order to break Favres interception record. please check your stats before you post because this makes you sound like an idiot. Just to help you out. here are the interceptions for the last 5 seasons for both Mannign and Favre.

Manning Favre
2009 4 2
2008 12 22 *
2007 14 15
2006 9 18 *
2005 10 29 *
2004 10 17
2003 10 21

The starred years are the years that Favre threw either the same ammount or MORE interceptions than touchdowns. that is something that Peyton Manning has done only once...His rookie year when he threw 26 TD's and 28 INT's..

Bryon · « **Reply #38 on:** October 12, 2009, 03:22:00 PM »

I have nothing but respect for the entire Manning family, and for Favre as well. Archie, Peyton, and Eli, as well as Brett, are all amazingly good in their own ways. They have style, and they have their own unique style. Sure, Brett plays a scrappy game, but it is FUN to watch him play. He plays for fun, like a big kid. And his arm is amazing. Sure, he'll toss some balls that a more conservative quarterback would hold, but sometimes those tosses win games that would otherwise have been lost. He isn't afraid to take the chance.

As for the prediction that Payton will surpass ALL of Favre's records (all caps are an exact quote)... I seriously doubt it. I doubt he'll throw as many interceptions, start as many consecutive games, start as many games, win as many games in his 40s, beat as many different teams (all of them). He will likely beat many of his records, but most certainly not ALL of them.

lightningninja · « **Reply #39 on:** October 12, 2009, 04:02:10 PM »

Quote from: crustpope on October 12, 2009, 02:59:55 PM

Are you Serious? Peyton would have to play until he was 60 in order to break Favres interception record. please check your stats before you post because this makes you sound like an idiot. Just to help you out. here are the interceptions for the last 5 seasons for both Mannign and Favre.

Chill out. No one's an idiot.

We'll see if Peyton can play as long as Favre in order to break those records. If Peyton Manning gets hurt... he'll sit out. It could be something like Brady. Brady will never be as good as he was because of that injury all last year. This is evident in the Pat's 3-2 record.

Brett Favre gets a cast on a leg because of an injury, so he puts a cast on the other leg, so the defenders don't know which leg to hit, and then goes on the field. No other quarterback can do that. Which means that Favre is reliable.

crustpope · « **Reply #40 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:27:56 AM »

First of all, I said you SOUND like an idiot. I did not call you an idiot. When you say things like that without checking the facts then you leave yourself open to comments like that. That is on par to saying something like "Richard Nixon was the most honest president ever." It is not just factually inaccurate, it is ridiculous.

Favre is a gunslinger. He takes risks. Because of that he makes fantastic plays and produces Miracles. He also throws interceptions that can get his teams into trouble. For every last second heroic drive that Favre has produced, I can point to a game that they could have won if he had just taken a sack or thrown the ball away instead of throwing an interception. Favre plays a great game but he is also a risk taker that sometimes takes unessesary risks.

I like Favre. He would be in my top 5 QB's of all time. I like how he plays and the energy that he brings to the game, but comparing his playing style to anyone else is not helpful because it is like comparing apples to squirrels. Favre is not a scrambler like Elway, neither is he a pure pocket passer like Marino. Their styles are different and they produce different results. You seem to be a Favre apologist who can see no wrong in Favre. That is unfortunate because unrealistic and you are not seeing the whole picture.

If you fell I have offended you then I apologize. I never meant to offend you, I simply meant to clarify your inaccuracies.

lightningninja · « **Reply #41 on:** October 13, 2009, 11:08:07 AM »

Oh I don't see no wrong in Favre. I hate how many interceptions he throws. I also never even said that he's the best of all time. I just think he's better than Manning.

And I'm not sure how you can say that Favre has just as many interception/bad choices games as he does great miracle games. There's a reason he has the most wins of any quarterback ever. He wins a lot more games that he loses, so I'd say he has a lot more great games.

No, not offended.

crustpope · « **Reply #42 on:** October 19, 2009, 01:19:45 PM »

There are 9 undefeated/winless teams left. Who among them will be the last to keep their perfect/imperfect season going?

The Haves
Colts
Broncos
Vikings
~~Giants~~
Saints

The Have Nots...
~~Chiefs~~
Titans
Buccaneers
Rams

And I have to update my Rankings!

1. Colts
2. Saints (Oh dear, oh dear, oh Dear, My what a show on Sunday)
3. Broncos (we will see what tonight brings. A tough division game @ San Diego tonight!)
4. Vikings (dropped a bit due to the Sunday Scare)
5. Patriots

ALso Rans:
Giants (oh how the mighty have fallen)
Bengals ( Forget what I said last week... my Bad)
Green bay, Jets, Philadelphia, Atlanta.. decidedly ..Meh

STAMP · « **Reply #43 on:** October 19, 2009, 03:41:20 PM »

In deference to my fellow brothers (& sisters) who are Vikings fans, I do hope they finally win the big one one of these days. This year? Maybe. But I don't want you to get your hopes up too high. You had to have a Hail Mary and a missed field goal to win two HOME games. Just keep things in perspective.

After all, the last time the Broncos and Vikings were this good together was in '98, and we all remember what happened then. Hmmm, at least I think I remember: Vikes were led by a free agent QB that used to be an all-pro for a team that wore green uniforms...am I right?!?

The Guardian · « **Reply #44 on:** October 19, 2009, 05:05:33 PM »

Quote

Hmmm, at least I think I remember: Vikes were led by a free agent QB that used to be an all-pro for a team that wore green uniforms...am I right?!?

Yes, yes, believe me--many people in Minnesota are looking to compare this team with 98's team. Besides the things you mentioned, we also have an explosive rookie WR who dropped in the draft due to character concerns.

However, our defense is much better, our offense is much more balanced and because of some of the close calls we've had, I don't think anyone on the team is going to get complacent.

Also, Favre's pass against the 49ers was not a Hail Mary. He saw the receiver and threw a frozen rope to him. A Hail Mary is a "throw it up for grabs in a crowd" pass.

The Guardian · « **Reply #45 on:** October 19, 2009, 05:07:02 PM »

1. Colts
2. Saints
3. Vikings
4. Giants
5. Broncos~pending their game against SD tonight.

New Raven BR · « **Reply #46 on:** October 19, 2009, 06:17:05 PM »

your team got lucky against the Ravens, justin

and i suggest switching colts spot on your list for saints cause i think the saints will make it to the superbowl

The Guardian · « **Reply #47 on:** October 19, 2009, 06:54:07 PM »

Quote

your team got lucky against the Ravens, justin

It's really kind of funny how the Vikings played great and the Ravens played awful for 3 quarters, then the Ravens have a great 4th quarter but come up a little short, and people say "the Vikings got lucky."

I'd be the first to admit the Vikings defense was bad in the 4th quarter...kinda like how the Ravens defense was bad in the 1st quarter...

STAMP · « **Reply #48 on:** October 19, 2009, 07:08:33 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on October 19, 2009, 05:05:33 PM

Also, Favre's pass against the 49ers was not a Hail Mary. He saw the receiver and threw a frozen rope to him. A Hail Mary is a "throw it up for grabs in a crowd" pass.

So...

If thrown by someone named Favre, Montana, Marino, Brady, etc., it's called a planned, frozen rope?!?

If thrown by someone named Tavaris, Alex Smith, Cleo Lemon, Tony Eason, etc., it's called a Hail Mary?!?

The Guardian · « **Reply #49 on:** October 19, 2009, 07:19:16 PM »

I guess you just have a different definition of a Hail Mary pass, but Favre saw the receiver and threw it to the exact spot where the receiver was going.

Quote

If thrown by someone named Favre, Montana, Marino, Brady, etc., it's called a planned, frozen rope?!?

If thrown by someone named Tavaris, Alex Smith, Cleo Lemon, Tony Eason, etc., it's called a Hail Mary?!?

I'm not sure where you got this from, but it doesn't matter. I would say the same thing if Shaun Hill makes that play...we just know he won't because he's not that good...

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Author Topic: NFL Power Rankings and 1st quarter NFL discussion topics (Read 69761 times)

Lamborghini_diablo