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I would rather not see any new brigades.  Ever.  There's already too many.  What would be great to see in an early church focused set would be a focus on blue that is not Genesis.  And I say that as a person who plays a ton of Genesis.

I honestly don't understand the hate for a new brigade.  Does anyone really think if they printed an early church theme in blue that it would work at all with Genesis anyway?  The cards would in general be designed not to work with the theme they shared a brigade with, if they weren't printed in a new brigade, so it shouldn't really matter what brigade they are printed in.

A new brigade would be perfect for the game to freshen it up a bit. We just got new starter decks and a new foil ( or whatever it is ) right now with a new brigade would make the game easier to get into for RLKs and n00bs because all the good cards for the brigade would be in the newest packs. But all this just my opinion .

Well it's already been said that no other themes will be printed in blue and since teal and silver are only for priests and angels and all the other colors have their N.T. themes I think it makes the most sense to make a new brigade.

You don't need to have OT/NT intra brigade themes that work well together.

That is exactly my point.  If the themes don't work well together, the actual brigade color is more or less irrelevant and mostly cosmetic, so it shouldn't matter if its a new color or not.

Quote from: Drrek on March 13, 2014, 11:57:15 AM

Quote from: _JM_ on March 13, 2014, 09:20:45 AM

You don't need to have OT/NT intra brigade themes that work well together.

That is exactly my point.  If the themes don't work well together, the actual brigade color is more or less irrelevant and mostly cosmetic, so it shouldn't matter if its a new color or not.

Booster.  Sealed.  That's where new brigade introduction matters.  Would you ever choose Priests packs for sealed?  I wasn't playing when Priests first came out, so I don't really know what booster was like then, but I do know that teal and orange are impossible to build around in booster (even with the tin, ironically enough).  They'll usually get a splash and no more in a deck (if that) since there isn't the card base for any more than that.  I strongly feel that a new booster set should focus on being great for Closed Deck play, and I don't believe that introducing a new brigade on either side would accomplish that.

Once again, just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.  Do we need a new brigade?  Rob and the set designers are the only ones who can really answer that, but I believe that the answer is no.

I feel like we should worry about the open events before being concerned about the closed. While yes, Priests packs aren't too great in booster because they have teal/orange, they do have some other good cards that aren't teal/orange that are used fairly often--Wonders Forgotten, Forgotten History, Rain Becomes Dust, Judas Iscariot, Lampstand of the Sanctuary, High Priests' Plot, Unified Kingdom, The Bronze Lavar, the Lost Souls, etc. So I'm sure that if we do get a new brigade(s) that it won't be the end of the world for booster. For sealed, you typically get to choose the packs you take so if you take Priests then it's likely your mistake, unless you take 3 Priests, in which case you're likely to have gotten at least a few substantial teal/orange cards that you could use in your deck.

I guess you're right, we don't need a new brigade, but on the other hand, why not? I think it would add more diversity and I'm sure a new mechanic could be added in addition to the brigade(s). We started Territory Class enhancements in a 60 card set and this one will be over 200 so I'm sure that our elders and card-makers could incorporate both into a new set.

But say that the game is getting to the end of its lifespan (which, from some of the responses that we've had, it sounds like that this is likely). What good would adding a new brigade do? Many of us will continue to play if the game doesn't continue past this set, but if we only get a small handful of cards in a new colored brigade, those cards will really just have been a waste of time and space. If we knew the game was going on another 10 years, it may be a good idea, but at this point, it's likely just better to stick with what we've got.

Another downside with adding a new brigade is the power creep.  You will have to super charge the new cards to get them even with everything else (remember the complaints about how strong Teal was at first).  If the NT theme is built around an existing brigade, they don't have to be as powerful as people will have other options for characters/enhancements to add to the new cards.  Also, I believe that new brigades should be introduced in tins or starter decks so my frustrations with teal.orange in the priest set won't happen again (where I buy/win/trade/whatever for a bunch of priest packs and end up receiving a large amount of the same common cards that, TBH, are worthless to me).

Does the OT/NT per brigade only reach the good brigades?  Wouldn't be nice to have the same thing happen to the evil ones (AFAIK, black is really the only one with a strong OT and a strong NT theme).

I feel like we should worry about the open events before being concerned about the closed. While yes, Priests packs aren't too great in booster because they have teal/orange, they do have some other good cards that aren't teal/orange that are used fairly often--Wonders Forgotten, Forgotten History, Rain Becomes Dust, Judas Iscariot, Lampstand of the Sanctuary, High Priests' Plot, Unified Kingdom, The Bronze Lavar, the Lost Souls, etc. So I'm sure that if we do get a new brigade(s) that it won't be the end of the world for booster. For sealed, you typically get to choose the packs you take so if you take Priests then it's likely your mistake, unless you take 3 Priests, in which case you're likely to have gotten at least a few substantial teal/orange cards that you could use in your deck.

Disagree with your first sentence (obviously ).  Focusing on influencing open categories tends to bring power creep and complexity creep.  I don't really have to point any farther back the Tin Release 2 to show that point.  I/J is the only set released since I started playing (2008) that actually attempted to cater to new players.  I'm arguing for a focus on Closed categories so that the momentum of power and complexity creep are slowed down. That would continue I/J's (pretty good) work in lowering the barrier to entry for new players.

Side note that's connected to power/complexity creep - this set represents a fantastic opportunity to start set rotation, since we've got a new layout.  Would be great to be see straight reprints (with proper wording/errata changes, of course) in the new layout.  But that's a whole different discussion that we can have after this one settles down.

Regarding sealed - yeah, it's a pretty big mistake to splash one Priests pack, and probably even two, into your pool.  Even three is nowhere close to optimal.  Shouldn't NewSet be a viable option for sealed with I/J, though?  I don't see how adding a new brigade pushes NewSet past the Priests level in pack selection.  Business logic alert - go with the direction that makes more money.  NewSet works well in sealed with I/J?  Great, that's more new product that's moving off the shelf, increasing the chances we see NewSet2015.

Booster - yes, there are absolutely some fantastic cards in Priests.  I'm not saying it's a garbage pack for booster, just that the biggest feature of the set is not all that booster friendly.  Side note - I really, really want to do an all-Priests booster now.  Then an all-Kings to compare.  Interested in seeing how that would play out.  I think Priests would warp around Teal and (to a lesser extent) Orange, but I don't know that for sure.  Alternate draft formats FTW.

I guess you're right, we don't need a new brigade, but on the other hand, why not? I think it would add more diversity and I'm sure a new mechanic could be added in addition to the brigade(s). We started Territory Class enhancements in a 60 card set and this one will be over 200 so I'm sure that our elders and card-makers could incorporate both into a new set.

Adding TC - addresses a clear need (utility enhancements not seeing play due to initiative system), doesn't require a whole lot of cards to start showcasing (and even opened up some older cards to the mechanical idea with High Places).

Adding new brigade - significant card commitment that does NOT address a clear need.  The only need I'm seeing in this thread is that "it would be cool".  That's a terrible reason to make any design decision.

But I don't play much closed deck anymore so my opinion for closed deck isn't that important.

Heh, I don't play much Redemption anymore (last game was maybe around Thanksgiving?), so my opinion in general probably doesn't mean a lot, either. 

So agree more brigades makes for more booster strategy. I do not believe the game is at the end of its life span, remember when Warriors saved the game ? All we need is a good set to freshen the game up and I think a new brigade would do just that.

I'll agree that we need a good set to freshen up the game, but keep in mind that a new brigade does not define a good set.  There's positives and negatives to that sort of introduction.  For a new brigade to make sense, it has to be the best solution for a particular need.  I don't see where we need a new brigade in the same way we needed something like Territory Class enhancements.

Ha, Ironica beat me to the power creep stuff since I took forever writing this wall of text.

IIRC, there had been official talk about a new brigade. Something about Clay?

For what it's worth, I'm against introducing a new brigade. My understanding is that the reason for a Clay brigade (which I have been told by an Elder is confirmed) is Rob feels that Genesis is large enough to encompass one brigade by itself (blue). Respectfully, I disagree with this logic. For the last several years, the playtesters have began fitting themes into brigades, to the point where for the most part, every brigade has two major themes associated with it, one OT and one NT. Here are the good brigades/themes as I see them:

Purple: Royalty/Disciples
Red: Warriors/Centurions
Green: OT Prophets/NT Prophets
Gold: Judges/Luke & John
White: Ruth, Musicians/TGT
Silver: Angels
Teal: Priests/???
Blue: Genesis, Job/???

Silver is an exception due to the role that angels play within Redemption, specifically as a support brigade. If we ever get that full-fledged Revelation theme, I imagine that it would largely fit into there. This leaves two brigades without a NT theme: Teal and Blue. I would argue that Teal is perhaps the only good brigade in the game that doesn't need a formal NT theme, as there are very few "good" priests mentioned in the NT, and teal was developed as a brigade exclusively for priests (as YMT mentioned, "Priests" and "Teal" are essentially synonymous in Redemption).

That only leaves one brigade without a good reason for a NT theme: Blue. There's some precedence for an Early Church theme in the blue brigade, the most popular of which is Nicholas of Antioch. As I mentioned above, Rob's logic has generally been that Genesis is too large to share the blue brigade with any other theme, and I just don't think this logic takes. It's a huge bastion for card ideas to be sure, but so is Prophets or Royalty, and those still comfortable share a brigade with another theme (many Prophets cards are divided between OT and NT, and I think it stands to reason that they are two different themes, especially if you're a T2 player). Because cards have moved towards division via themes as well as brigades (e.g. cards that reference Judges or Prophets, rather than just gold or green heroes), I see no reason that an early church theme can't do the same thing, while taking advantage of the handful of useable blue cards that aren't Genesis exclusive.

Introducing a new brigade spits in the face of precedence, creates a wider gap between the number of good and evil brigades, and will only serve to create more to keep track of.

As I mentioned above, Rob's logic has generally been that Genesis is too large to share the blue brigade with any other theme, and I just don't think this logic takes. It's a huge bastion for card ideas to be sure, but so is Prophets or Royalty, and those still comfortable share a brigade with another theme (many Prophets cards are divided between OT and NT, and I think it stands to reason that they are two different themes, especially if you're a T2 player).

Your choice to break Green into OT Prophets/NT Prophets as opposed to just prophets and Red into Warriors/Centurions instead of just warriors, strikes me as a bit of special pleading in an attempt to make your case. There are very few cards (compared to the size of the card pool) that treat OT and NT prophets separately, and the same can be said for Warriors/Centurions.  This is in marked contrast to brigades which actually have separate OT/NT themes (think Gold and how many cards are specifically designed for Judges or Luke heroes).

Second, if you look at the reasons behind choosing Disciples, Judges, etc. in the I/J set, I think it is fairly clear that when Rob talks about size he essentially means story space. If you ask Christians in general about these items you will find that for royalty there are essentially two archetypes--the kingdom triumphant (David and Solomon) and the kingdom broken (all the rest)--that serve as distinct story spaces.  In prophets there are possibly three (Elijah vs OT Prophets vs John the Baptist), but most times people would categorize them as the prophets with no such breakdown. Judges are almost universally lumped together. Genesis, on the other hand, features Creation, Noah, Abraham/Isaac, and Jacob and kids all as distinct well-known story lines.

FWIW, I don't feel a new brigade at this time is warranted--but I want to be fair to the arguments that are being made for one.