Author Topic: Music Beliefs (Read 36110 times)

Colin Michael · « **Reply #75 on:** February 18, 2009, 07:59:26 PM »

Haha, Point of Grace played my school's chapel...

Yeah, I agree that Michael W. Smith is a legend. He's done more for music than people give him credit. For example, Leeland was discovered and coached by Michael W. Smith. Also, Jordan Sparks was discovered by Michael W. Smith who put her on her way to becoming an American Idol.

I just make fun of Meant to Live because when it became a hit, that riff was embedded into all of our skulls.

I think Christian artists should just become indie artists, personally. In the vast world of independent rock, bands become popular by word of mouth and musical skill alone instead of being popular because Disney, MTV (or whatever) told us they were popular. Bands like Sigur Ros, the Killers, and Kings of Leon got big because indie kids, music critics, and Nashville in general loved their music; making them popular.

The Used, on the other hand, existed with a tiny fanbase in the underground for years, not even really selling records, until Reprise picked them up and decided to turn them into a marketable band. They still aren't very good musicians.

Then look at bands like Green Day and My Chemical Romance. They were both very popular in the indie music scene but then were marketed into something completely different than they originally were by their record labels.

Green Day weren't the offensive jerks their record company wanted them to be earlier on (this was changed because offense sells; they wanted another Sex Pistols).

MCR was known for being an intense punk band and their shows were comparable to early punk shows in the violent energy and running around smashing things on stage. Also, for their genre, they were very decent songwriters. Reprise tried to make them into Queen and they pretty much lost the synergy they had as a punk band. Now they are jumping from genre to genre, losing pretty much all distinction (watching their latest video shows that MTV is going back to trying to cash in on the early punk ideal and failing miserably.)

Even the Beatles (who were known for their energetic and violent shows in Germany) were turned into pretty boys by Ed Sullivan. Thankfully, they got out of that in the end.

Quote

hort version of this is that your logic that "if they were any good a secular label would have signed them" leaves much to be desired. How much of a secret is it that labels sell what they think will make them money and not what is actually good? And why should it then be a surprise that music downloading and independent distribution streams are taking hold while they continue to ride their dinosaurs?

Very true. I probably should take that back and rephrase that.
Good Christian bands will be picked up by the indie crowd and thus will make their way into the secular market. Switchfoot and Relient K both did this. Underoath and others did this. Sixpence None the Richer pretty much went right to the indie crowd.

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And you decry the overuse of standard progressions but you named Bob Dylan, who probably made more of a career out of finding variations of ii-V-I than any artist of his generation.

Bob Dylan's more of a lyricist and a songwriter than a composer and also, he was the first to probably do that. And let's be honest, no matter how simple a song, Bob Dylan made it cool. If the lyrics of Christian pop were up to par with Dylan, they could get away with simplicity. Art can be simple. Copying simple art is kind of lame.

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I have been as strong an advocate as anybody that "Christian music" needs to get out of the ten-years-ago and start focusing on quality music.

This made me think of something. Do you think bands like Radiohead, Sonic Youth, or U2 would have had the same impact on the progression of rock and roll that they each did if they were under the Christian label? I mean, think about it. Someone with that kind of innovation and musical impact haven't really ever existed in its genre besides Phil Keaggy, MW Smith, Underoath, and arguably DC Talk.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #76 on:** February 18, 2009, 08:27:42 PM »

Quote from: Colin Michael on February 18, 2009, 10:54:06 AM

I apologise for my typical bi-polarness that comes out on the internet.

Apology freely accepted. You are correct that our perspectives are completely different. I don't really listen to any music. I don't listen to the radio intentionally, and I have not listened to any CDs in years. My purpose for avoiding music is based on an acknowledgement of its power.

I'm sure we all agree that the lyrics can be influential, but I would argue that even the composition can be. I speak only from my own experience as a sinner saved by Grace. I was heavily into music as a youngster, particularly KISS, Blue Oyster Cult, and Aldo Nova. I don't have a very good memory of my childhood due to a traumatic family life, but I remember all the guitar solos in the songs from those groups. The guitar memories then remind me of the lyrics, which then remind me of the things I used to do while listening to those songs. My memory is tied to the songs permanently. Frankly, those are memories that I wish I didn't have, but the music has locked them there.

Likewise, after becoming a Christian in my 20s, I started listening to Christian Rock. Groups like Petra, DC Talk, Mastedon, and Halo became my new favorites and their songs quickly etched memories. Those memories were good memories, though.

As time progressed, the only music I wanted to listen to were the CDs from the groups I listened to at the time of my conversion. I still had problems getting the older songs out of my head, especially if I heard them playing in some store or in a commercial. Eventually I just wanted it all to stop.

The only music I really want in my head nowadays is the praise music from church. The words are plain and clear and any memories are from being in church. Those are the only thoughts I want popping up when the music starts.

I hope that clears up my earlier vague comment. I guess it is more accurate to say that my memories of secular music stink.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #77 on:** February 18, 2009, 08:29:13 PM »

Quote from: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 09:47:20 PM

Quote
Leeland
His demos were pretty good...On that subject, Michael W. Smith is another exception.

Quote from: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 09:56:01 PM

I challenge you to find a Christian artist besides Liegh Nash that can sing better or equal to Leslie Feist...

Quote from: Colin Michael on February 18, 2009, 02:07:51 PM

I will say that Christian metal is incredibly innovative. Underoath has definitely been innovative...

Quote from: Colin Michael on February 18, 2009, 07:59:26 PM

Someone with that kind of innovation and musical impact haven't really ever existed in its genre besides Phil Keaggy, MW Smith, Underoath, and arguably DC Talk.

OK, so just to get this straight. Christian music can't compare to the best secular music except for all of the above people. First of all I disagree that we have exhausted the list of exceptions (exhibit A = Larry Norman who was incredibly innovative and as good a lyricist as Bob Dylan). And second of all, when you are comparing to the best of anything, you will naturally get a small group. You couldn't make a long list of secular guitar players better than Phil Keaggy. You couldn't make a long list of people better at T1-2p than Gabe Isbel. That doesn't mean everyone else stinks.

Colin Michael · « **Reply #78 on:** February 18, 2009, 08:32:52 PM »

Well, I think this has kind of turned into good music v.s. corporate music.

I mean, the corporate Christian music and the Corporate hollywood music is equally bad.

The Schaef · « **Reply #79 on:** February 18, 2009, 09:49:02 PM »

Quote from: Colin Michael on February 18, 2009, 07:59:26 PM

This made me think of something. Do you think bands like Radiohead, Sonic Youth, or U2 would have had the same impact on the progression of rock and roll that they each did if they were under the Christian label? I mean, think about it. Someone with that kind of innovation and musical impact haven't really ever existed in its genre besides Phil Keaggy, MW Smith, Underoath, and arguably DC Talk.

No, they wouldn't, but again you're using the exception to write the rule. I think we all agree that the music industry is replete with retreads at all levels. The reason the Christian sub-genre is the way it is, can be attributed to the tastes of the consumer who has spent more dollars on retreads that have more wholesome lyrics at the cost of less musical innovation. If more secular artists realized that, they would move more records. You need artists to push the envelope, but in the end, G movies put more butts in seats because more people can go see them, that's why The Lion King outsold Braveheart. Will Smith has sold 80 billion records without dipping into extremely coarse lyrics. Direct-to-video sequels may be crap, but the fact is, Land Before Time 37 sells. So you can have quality, you can have integrity, and you can have exposure, but it's the rare bird that doesn't sacrifice one or two of these to accomplish the rest. Walt Disney massively innovated the movie industry in the process of delivering a family experience, but the sad thing is that he was the outside thinker and not the standard-bearer when it comes to achieving all three.

Colin Michael · « **Reply #80 on:** February 18, 2009, 10:01:40 PM »

So in this, is I guess I believe that I believe that music should be written as an expression of the artist's soul, not as a means to "sell" the people what they want. Therefore, "Christian" music is excluded; that is, that music which is created to be a means of "selling" a Christian message. Christian music that is a manifestation of a Christian artist's soul isn't "Christian" music, it's "good" music.

lightningninja · « **Reply #81 on:** February 18, 2009, 10:18:38 PM »

Quote from: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 09:56:01 PM

As a music critic (who hates most popular secular music), I challenge you to find a Christian artist besides Liegh Nash that can sing better or equal to Leslie Feist, write lyrics better than Bob Dylan, or play guitar better than Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, or Jack White.

Carrie Underwood - Jesus take the wheel. She has been top female vocalist for three years in a row. And that's a Christian song, I'm not sure if she's a Christian. And she puts your guys to shame.

Writing lyrics... I LOVE Anberlin's lyrics. They are Christian.

Playing guitar... I can't say, I don't play... so I'm not sure. I'll let someone else take this.

But I'd still like my questions answered(I didn't originally say this as a question): How is listening to non-Christian music(that still teaches good things, or at least not bad things) any worse than going to Disney Land?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #82 on:** February 18, 2009, 11:15:55 PM »

Quote from: fireninja on February 18, 2009, 10:18:38 PM

Playing guitar... I can't say, I don't play... so I'm not sure. I'll let someone else take this.

BRET. CANNY. never heard of him? wondering what band he's in? he's not. he lives about a block away from me. started learning Van Halen within the first couple weeks of playing. he's now been playing a year, and can listen to a song, and play it. he's 7th grade. he's a prodigy. a very good one. he's also incredible at piano. played Solfeggioro in 4th grade... PERFECT. mark my words, he will be amazing, and he pretty much hates all music that isn't Christian rock... or Disturbed.

Colin Michael · « **Reply #83 on:** February 18, 2009, 11:17:53 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 18, 2009, 11:15:55 PM

Quote from: fireninja on February 18, 2009, 10:18:38 PM
Playing guitar... I can't say, I don't play... so I'm not sure. I'll let someone else take this.
BRET. CANNY. never heard of him? wondering what band he's in? he's not. he lives about a block away from me. started learning Van Halen within the first couple weeks of playing. he's now been playing a year, and can listen to a song, and play it. he's 7th grade. he's a prodigy. a very good one. he's also incredible at piano. played Solfeggioro in 4th grade... PERFECT. mark my words, he will be amazing, and he pretty much hates all music that isn't Christian rock... or Disturbed.

Oh yeah? My cousin is ten and can play the Saxaphone, the piano, the drums, the guitar (acoustic and electic), and the bass.
I taught him how to solo at Christmas; I wish I had learned that at his age.

The Schaef · « **Reply #84 on:** February 19, 2009, 07:14:09 AM »

Quote from: fireninja on February 18, 2009, 10:18:38 PM

Carrie Underwood - Jesus take the wheel. She has been top female vocalist for three years in a row. And that's a Christian song, I'm not sure if she's a Christian. And she puts your guys to shame.

That's a good point that I was going to make and lost it in my ramblings. One big reason that country music is quietly a huge portion of the industry is because God for most of them is as American as mom and apple pie. They're not singing about God to proselytize, but just because He's a part of their life just like their beer and their pick-em-up truck.

Yes, I'm stereotyping. Point is, quality plus integrity plus exposure to form the best possible artist in the current industry. Some might argue that most country artists are not huge in any or all of these three areas, especially quality, but the fact that their quality and exposure are both higher than what's normally seen in the Christian subset explains their much broader success.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #85 on:** February 19, 2009, 09:28:46 AM »

Quote from: Colin Michael on February 18, 2009, 11:17:53 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 18, 2009, 11:15:55 PM
Quote from: fireninja on February 18, 2009, 10:18:38 PM
Playing guitar... I can't say, I don't play... so I'm not sure. I'll let someone else take this.
BRET. CANNY. never heard of him? wondering what band he's in? he's not. he lives about a block away from me. started learning Van Halen within the first couple weeks of playing. he's now been playing a year, and can listen to a song, and play it. he's 7th grade. he's a prodigy. a very good one. he's also incredible at piano. played Solfeggioro in 4th grade... PERFECT. mark my words, he will be amazing, and he pretty much hates all music that isn't Christian rock... or Disturbed.
Oh yeah? My cousin is ten and can play the Saxaphone, the piano, the drums, the guitar (acoustic and electic), and the bass.
I taught him how to solo at Christmas; I wish I had learned that at his age.

those were just his 2 best instruments. he's also rather good at trumpet, drums and bass. and yes, he's played acoustic and electric.

Colin Michael · « **Reply #86 on:** February 19, 2009, 11:02:49 AM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 19, 2009, 09:28:46 AM

Quote from: Colin Michael on February 18, 2009, 11:17:53 PM
Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 18, 2009, 11:15:55 PM
Quote from: fireninja on February 18, 2009, 10:18:38 PM
Playing guitar... I can't say, I don't play... so I'm not sure. I'll let someone else take this.
BRET. CANNY. never heard of him? wondering what band he's in? he's not. he lives about a block away from me. started learning Van Halen within the first couple weeks of playing. he's now been playing a year, and can listen to a song, and play it. he's 7th grade. he's a prodigy. a very good one. he's also incredible at piano. played Solfeggioro in 4th grade... PERFECT. mark my words, he will be amazing, and he pretty much hates all music that isn't Christian rock... or Disturbed.
Oh yeah? My cousin is ten and can play the Saxaphone, the piano, the drums, the guitar (acoustic and electic), and the bass.
I taught him how to solo at Christmas; I wish I had learned that at his age.
those were just his 2 best instruments. he's also rather good at trumpet, drums and bass. and yes, he's played acoustic and electric.

Did I mention that I played Tiny Dancer on the piano and he played along on the Saxophone, both in key and creatively, the day that he got it?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #87 on:** February 19, 2009, 01:30:29 PM »

Quote from: Colin Michael on February 19, 2009, 11:02:49 AM

Quote from: Colin Michael on February 19, 2009, 09:28:46 AM
Did I mention that I played Tiny Dancer on the piano and he played along on the Saxophone, both in key and creatively, the day that he got it?
the day he got the saxophone? had he played the sax before? or just worked hard to learn fingering in one day?

Colin Michael · « **Reply #88 on:** February 19, 2009, 02:06:18 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 19, 2009, 01:30:29 PM

Quote from: Colin Michael on February 19, 2009, 11:02:49 AM
Quote from: Colin Michael on February 19, 2009, 09:28:46 AM
Did I mention that I played Tiny Dancer on the piano and he played along on the Saxophone, both in key and creatively, the day that he got it?
the day he got the saxophone? had he played the sax before? or just worked hard to learn fingering in one day?
Well, I mean, I could pick it up and figure out the scales too; it's not that hard. Neither of us are Bobby Keys, but we can make it make music.

TimMierz · « **Reply #89 on:** February 19, 2009, 02:13:41 PM »

Quote from: Ricky

Oh yeah? Well the thing with me is that on the morning of the test I was reaching for the orange juice and accidentally grabbed laundry detergent and I had to get my stomach pumped. After a good while of that I ripped the IV out of my arm, told the nurse I had an SAT to take, and did what I had to do. Talk about a crazy day!

michael/michaelssword · « **Reply #90 on:** February 19, 2009, 02:31:50 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on February 19, 2009, 02:13:41 PM

Quote from: Ricky
Oh yeah? Well the thing with me is that on the morning of the test I was reaching for the orange juice and accidentally grabbed laundry detergent and I had to get my stomach pumped. After a good while of that I ripped the IV out of my arm, told the nurse I had an SAT to take, and did what I had to do. Talk about a crazy day!

Tim haswon the thread only because he has actually posted SPAM

TimMierz · « **Reply #91 on:** February 19, 2009, 02:33:36 PM »

That or I was indirectly and obscurely referring to the ridiculous oneupmanship going on right above me.

I'll go with spam.

michael/michaelssword · « **Reply #92 on:** February 19, 2009, 02:34:09 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on February 19, 2009, 02:33:36 PM

That or I was indirectly and obscurely referring to the ridiculous oneupmanship going on right above me.

I'll go with spam.

works for me

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #93 on:** February 19, 2009, 06:01:01 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on February 19, 2009, 02:33:36 PM

That or I was indirectly and obscurely referring to the ridiculous oneupmanship going on right above me.

I'll go with spam.

did you just wyn this thread twice in one day? I think you did! Is that legal?

Clarinetguy097 · « **Reply #94 on:** February 20, 2009, 05:29:44 PM »

I have a few questions.

Did you write the book of love,
And do you have faith in God above,
If the Bible tells you so?
Do you believe in rock n roll,
Can music save your mortal soul,
And can you teach me how to dance real slow?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #95 on:** February 20, 2009, 05:35:17 PM »

Quote from: Clarinetguy097 on February 20, 2009, 05:29:44 PM

Did you write the book of love,
And do you have faith in God above,
If the Bible tells you so?
Do you believe in rock n roll,
Can music save your mortal soul,
And can you teach me how to dance real slow?

The three men I admire most,
the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost,
they caught the train for the coast,
the day the music died.

lightningninja · « **Reply #96 on:** February 20, 2009, 05:38:41 PM »

Mark, it was actually the LAST train for the coast.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #97 on:** February 20, 2009, 05:56:26 PM »

Quote from: fireninja on February 20, 2009, 05:38:41 PM

Mark, it was actually the LAST train for the coast.

that must have been one Crazy Train.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #98 on:** February 20, 2009, 07:53:57 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 20, 2009, 05:56:26 PM

Quote from: fireninja on February 20, 2009, 05:38:41 PM
Mark, it was actually the LAST train for the coast.
that must have been one Crazy Train.

Crazy, but that's how it goes.
Millions of people living as foes.
Maybe its not to late
To learn how to love
And forget how to hate.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #99 on:** February 20, 2009, 08:03:18 PM »

I love you,
You love me,
We're a happy family,
With a great big hug,
And a kiss from me to you,
Won't you say you love me too.

News:

Author Topic: Music Beliefs (Read 36110 times)

The Schaef

Warrior_Monk

The Schaef

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

michael/michaelssword

michael/michaelssword

Warrior_Monk

Clarinetguy097

Warrior_Monk