Cactus Game Design Message Boards

I may not be the target audience for the project, but trying to raise funds and not incentivizing everyone you possibly can is bad business.

Incentivizing everyone is not possible.  And some of the incentives that have been requested in this thread (exclusive cards just for kickstarter people) by some people would alienate other people.  So I think that the best course of action at this stage is to keep things simple and just focus on trying to get out a new "booster" pack simply for the sake of getting a new "booster" pack.  That way if there ends up being more incentives later, people will be pleasantly surprised

I dont want to be spoiler tastic or anything... but I thought the current set in development wasnt supposed to be a "booster" set... Reason being the costs for making a "booster pack" is far more expensive in comparison to making a TexP style set where Rob can package the product on his own...

I thought the difference in cost was because he was repacking already printed cards vs printing a completely new set?  I really don't care what the packaging is like, I just want an all new booster set.  So if it really would save money to print an all new set that came in paper boxes instead of foil wrappers then I think we should do that. 

There are a lot of factors as mentioned that affect how much I'd want to get.  I'd probably go for 2 boxes but this could vary a lot.  Depending on timing and funds I might only be able to do 1/2 box but if like this last year.... I got 4 of the new starters and tin + disciples/texp boxes + RoA set so that would be more like 8 boxes.  I do like to get to 4 sets worth.

Even though I couldn't get them for the longest time, I always liked the special promo cards like Soldier, King David, FS, etc.  I bought Solomon's Temple just so I could get those promos.  For me it was something to aim for like finally completing the harder quests or challenges in a video game but apparently I'm weird.  Maybe people didn't like having competitive cards be exclusive but what about stuff that just looks cool?

I would not want incentives to be packs or cards from already released product.  Special incentives (like maybe special foil versions of cards that come in the set) or more of the new set would be ok.  I also like the goals of increasing the set size.

I personally think designing the new set so that it is possible (fun!) to draft with just that set and is also possible for new player to get in the game with buying that set plus a starter deck would be helpful.  I don't mean that they would have equally good decks from just that set as someone that has the whole collection because of course the full collection gives you deck building advantages.  I mean that they could come up with fun playable decks out of that set (without crazy power creep and making all old stuff irrelevant).  While difficult I think that is possible and the new starter set is a pretty good example.   

Based on the hypotheticals being thrown around, I'd be willing to buy a couple boxes.

*****

Also, while I love the idea of a Priests-like expansion where the cards are randomized, I don't think like the idea of unplayable cards being printed just to make the expansion work.  It's hard to imagine a set where you have to buy hundreds of packs (just to get a complete set) while all 10 cards in each pack are still playable.  I'd like to see something similar to this:

Booster size:  6 cards (still retail at 3.00)
Rarity:  5 uncommon, 1 rare/UR
Ratio of rare/UR:  9/1 (you are expected to get a UR once every 10 packs)
Distribution of UC/R/UR:  100 UC/30 R/10 UR - 140 cards total

Based on these numbers, you are projected to receive in each pack:  5 UC, 0.9 R, and 0.1 UR.  If your packs yield the minimum amount of repeats, and are exactly distributed based on these ratios, you will complete your set by buying 100 packs (to get all 10 URs).  In buying 100 packs, you will also have:  500 UC (so 5 copies of each) and 90 R (so 3 copies of each).  Considering you also have 1 copy of each UR, I think that seems appropriate, based on their rarities.

Obviously this is just an idea to illustrate what I am looking at.  But I think this, or something similar, can have the best of all worlds:  a booster pack expansion, a minimum of unplayable cards, a justifiable higher retail price per card (compared with past booster sets), a proper ratio of UC/R/UR, etc.

All I'm hearing is, "Kickstarter blah blah blah what's in it for me? blah blah blah no, really, what's in it for me blah blah blah..."

You want to help Rob raise money for a new set?  Go to www.cactusgamedesign.com, order a bunch of old stock, pay retail.

What's in it for you?  Rob makes money...hopefully enough to print a new set.

With respect Stamp, that is almost exactly what I am saying. As a consumer, I should have the right to say if I support a business initiative before product is even released that I get some form of incentive. How is that different than any other business venture? Venture capitalists invest in a company when they know they can get something out of it, not usually out of the goodness of their hearts. I have been a supporter of CGD since almost the time it began, and I have gained some great friends as a result. That said, it is not unreasonable to get some form of idea of where the game is going, and that if there is an initiative to generate money beforehand to expect some kind of incentive. This is not a non-profit ministry, it's a Christian based business, and there is a large difference between the two...

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I dont want to be spoiler tastic or anything... but I thought the current set in development wasnt supposed to be a "booster" set... Reason being the costs for making a "booster pack" is far more expensive in comparison to making a TexP style set where Rob can package the product on his own...

I thought the difference in cost was because he was repacking already printed cards vs printing a completely new set?  I really don't care what the packaging is like, I just want an all new booster set.  So if it really would save money to print an all new set that came in paper boxes instead of foil wrappers then I think we should do that. 

Well there are even more production costs you need to remember. First off printing a Disciples sized set would cost EVEN more since you need to print multiple Common and Uncommon sheets in relation to the number of Rare/UR/Promo sheets. If KS promos would become a thing (which I seriously hope they dont) then additional sheets would have to be printed.

If Rob printed the set in the US the card sheet size is smaller (50 to a sheet?) then the ones of old so EVEN more card sheets would have to be printed on top of the fact Rob would need to order larger and thicker card stock for the cards.... the 4th edition cards were too small and too thin.

On top of that you have to pay for the printing company to make "foil" wrappers, randomize the cards, package the cards into the "foil" wrappers, package them into the boxes ect. ect. you can see it gets out of hand very fast.

Its just not worth it in the end. If we ever get another "foil" booster it would have to be in a Womens type format to make any financial sense.

Prof, it should probably concern you that Chris and I, both top players who invest money year after year (notably in travel expenses), who are obviously interested in new cards, don't want to support this. To just write him off like that is absurd.

I'd probably go for 2 boxes

Thanks.  I'll add you to the list

Based on the hypotheticals being thrown around, I'd be willing to buy a couple boxes.

Thanks, I'll add you too

Also, while I love the idea of a Priests-like expansion where the cards are randomized, I don't think like the idea of unplayable cards being printed just to make the expansion work.

The Elders have tried hard over the last several years to make sure that a high percentage of the cards that are created are playable regardless of their rarity.  And I've read a lot of comments on the forum that indicate that most people feel like we've done a pretty good job of that.  So although I understand your concern about many of the "unplayable" Priest set cards, I'm hopeful that won't be a problem this time around.

Prof, it should probably concern you that Chris and I, both top players who invest money year after year (notably in travel expenses), who are obviously interested in new cards, don't want to support this. To just write him off like that is absurd.

First of all, I'm not writing Chris or you off as people.  I consider both of you to be friends of mine, and have really enjoyed the times we've had together at Nats over the years.

Second of all, I understand that Chris and you don't happen to be as enthusiastic as a lot of other people seem to be about finally having a larger randomized set.  And I completely agree that you both are top players who have invested time and money into this game over the years.  But there are a lot of other people who also fit into that category, and my impression is that the majority of them WOULD really like to see this happen.  So I'm moving forward with this thread to gauge exactly what that interest is, and whether it is enough to make this a possibility.

So far we have 7 people who are willing to contribute, and we are already over $2000.  So it's been a good start.  But perhaps in the end we will fall short.  Perhaps Chris and you are actually in the majority and the Redemption community at large will be happy with a small set again this year.  If that happens, then I'll be a bit sad, but will accept that as the will of the people.  Either way this thread should help us have a better picture of how to proceed.

As for people who want to discuss what it means to be a "Christian business"...it is a good questions.  But I would appreciate it if you could take that to another thread so we can keep this one focused.

Prof, it should probably concern you that Chris and I, both top players who invest money year after year (notably in travel expenses), who are obviously interested in new cards, don't want to support this. To just write him off like that is absurd.

Cactus would be running the kickstarter, not Greyhound.

you are gauging market interest

That's what I keep saying.  I'm glad you agree.

"I have $400! Please give me a good enough reason to give you my money!"

I quite simply have nowhere near the authority or ability to promise you dinner with Rob, or the ability to create a card in the next set, or a new puppy, or probably anything else that you would consider a good enough reason.  If Rob decides to actually go this route, then he obviously might add some super incentives to the deal.  But I didn't want to even hypothetically commit him to anything that I wasn't at least decently confident that he would be willing to do.

But this thread will help us to learn whether it's even worth Rob trying to think up crazy awesome stuff.  If we get $25,000 based simply on people wanting this to happen, then I think we'd be at a place to get him involved.  On the other hand, if we get less than $5,000 then I'd consider this idea DOA, and there's no reason to even bother Rob with wasting time coming up with cool incentives.

If we get $25,000 based simply on people wanting this to happen, then I think we'd be at a place to get him involved.  On the other hand, if we get less than $5,000 then I'd consider this idea DOA, and there's no reason to even bother Rob with wasting time coming up with cool incentives.

And IMO, there-in lies the problem, Mark. You have not stated that any of this is a guarantee, you are just gauging market interest. I get that, I really do. And you tried to create some incentives with current stock as ideas, of which I have yet to see anyone on this thread support. Which to me would mean that different "HYPOTHETICAL" incentives need to be made. Creating ONE card that is fully elder-tested and supported is not that out of the question for someone willing to pledge over $1000.00. How many people will you get on that level of support? 1? 5? 10? If I were a game developer and you showed me 10 people willing to give me 1000.00 for future product and all I had to do was help them design a card of their choice and then ensure it wasn't broken by the PTB? Well, to me that's one less card I have to design for the next set and a whole lot of seed money that came in for minimal effort.

I still think that having population goals for promos (because honestly, how many original promos that have been designed besides AOCP, Daniel, and Goliath have truly stood the test of time across multiple decks) would be a nice incentive to encourage our playgroups to participate. I would be pretty sure that everyone has $5.00 that they can pledge at some point to get the group reward.

But putting money upfront just for the sake of some product without other rewards, as you have seen on these boards, is a tough sell. No one is expecting this to be a contract, and we do appreciate the idea, but you can't stifle creativity either...

This isn't a church or a non-profit organization. I am tired of people equating a business endeavor to a non-profit. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with wanting to get the most for your money, unless you are trying to get it out of a non-profit organization. But those are completely different. No one has no right, in any way, to question someone's motives when it comes to purchasing an item or a product.

Furthermore, that is misusing that passage of Scripture. Using that argument also means that you can use that argument for sub-par Christian music (not all Christian music is sub-par, only some of it is) and lame things like "Testamints" in the hope of using it for ministry. And there may be people that argue that, I don't know, but last I checked, God wants our best, not just something that says "Jesus" on it. Cactus does a great job of that; it doesn't just slap "Bible" on something and call it a day. The games that Rob produces are high quality and a lot of fun. But you cannot use the argument of "everything you buy MUST be Christian because otherwise it doesn't glorify God." For example, the friendships I have made through other "secular" games that I can't mention anywhere but Open Discussion that God uses those sorts of things too.

I support what Rob is doing, he's giving a fun game to people that may not feel comfortable with other CCG's, that's great, that's awesome. But he isn't just giving the cards away. He is selling them in order to make some sort of profit from the endeavor, no matter how small it may be. That is how a business works. Even though you can do ministry through a business, it's still, in the end, a business. A livelihood. You cannot apply the whole "rich young ruler" to this sort of situation. Doing so gives the impression that our motives are being questioned, when many of us are people who give to Christian and non-profit organizations on a regular basis.

This conversation should have never gone this direction. We were giving suggestions based on how crowdfunding works. Crowdfunding must offer incentives in order to work, otherwise you are just doing pre-orders, as was mentioned by several other people in this conversation. I'm posting this not only because it needs to be said, but also because people do need to be careful when it comes to what they are saying about the intentions of others. Yes, there are times that we need to call people out for "unChristian" behavior, but I don't believe this is one of those cases.

TL;DR: This is a business, not a nonprofit. Rob is doing great things, but it's still a business. Be kind to each other, and be careful of what you are applying Scripture to.

I don't want to quote Marti's post and extend the page length, but I agree with it 100%. It reminds me of an article I read recently about Switchfoot and the topic of "Christian music." Their stance is that the music itself is not "Christian" or "secular", it's the attitude of the artists and their beliefs/what they do WITH the music that presents as Christian. I feel this also applies to what Marti was saying. Just because a business makes Christian products doesn't make the business "Christian", and on the flip-side wanting/needing to make profits from said products doesn't make a business "un-Christian" or people that purchase those things "evil."

I'm willing to support this endeavor as a baseline because I love Redemption and I will do what I can to assist with its longevity. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be interested in incentives or extra things for said support, and I might even be willing to pledge more support if such incentives were added. I love the game and want to support it, but I also want to get the most out of my money/time/effort. I don't think that's "un-Christian."