Author Topic: How did you learn about Redemption? Word of Mouth or... (Read 6737 times)

EmJayBee83 · « **on:** June 04, 2014, 08:30:10 AM »

Quote from: Chris on June 04, 2014, 02:47:19 AM

So then, since 2007, Redemption has seen a fairly steady decline in attendance with an extreme dip in 2009 (CA) and an extreme spike in 2011 (MN). This decline has escalated since 2011, with the following two tournaments putting up low numbers, and 2013 showing the lowest numbers since 2001. Priests debuted in 2006, and after the tournament that followed it, the game has seen lower average attendance numbers. Since Priests was released (and keep in mind this was eight years ago now), there has only been one set that has contained cards of serious value, and even those did not differ in rarity from other cards in the set (TxP's release in 2009, which contained Grapes of Wrath and Mayhem).

Fact, in 2007 there were 2,400 Christian bookstores in the US. By 2011 that number had dropped to 900 and has continued to fall ever since.

Fact, per capita spending on consumer travel in the US peaked in 2007, contracted through 2010, and has only marginally recovered since.

Quote

I do not believe that this correlation is a coincidence. While it's true that correlation does not necessarily imply causation, I believe in this case it is safe to assume that there is causal here.

By the same logic, you would be equally safe assuming that the lack of Redemption ultra-rares has led to an overall decline in Christian retailing and the reduction of leisure travel. Other people may feel that you have causes and effects reversed.

DDiceRC · « **Reply #1 on:** June 04, 2014, 08:42:20 AM »

You could add the general decline in hobby gaming outlets as well. While some games do well, there are a smaller number of brick-and-mortar stores selling hobby games; a lot of the business goes on via Internet sales. Redemption does not have a broad presence on game-related web sites. I don't know what distributors Cactus works with, or if the merchandising flow even allows for a broader distribution, but that's something that could help. (The biggest factor we had in keeping our game alive was getting a distribution partner who could help us get into game stores and online retailers.)

Chris · « **Reply #2 on:** June 04, 2014, 03:43:59 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on June 04, 2014, 08:30:10 AM

Fact, in 2007 there were 2,400 Christian bookstores in the US. By 2011 that number had dropped to 900 and has continued to fall ever since.

Fact, per capita spending on consumer travel in the US peaked in 2007, contracted through 2010, and has only marginally recovered since.

I'm not sure that sales in Christian book stores translates to attendance of the national tournament. Certainly sales from Christian book stores had an impact on Cactus as a whole during the peak of Christian book store popularity, but I can't imagine that buying a starter deck and maybe a few packs results in a long-lasting interest and investment in the game. Having other people who are experienced to help grow excitement for the game is almost certainly necessary as well in the vast majority of cases. Does it have impact? Certainly. Is it a major factor? I don't think so. Additionally, per capita spending has grown since 2011, while attendance has sharply dropped. The economy might be a factor in the game's initial decline, but there's no correlation later on.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #3 on:** June 04, 2014, 03:46:01 PM »

Christian book stores are the only marketing Cactus has. Pull the plug on that, and you're just relying on the Tournament Hosts.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 04, 2014, 04:23:04 PM »

Quote from: Chris on June 04, 2014, 03:43:59 PM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on June 04, 2014, 08:30:10 AM
Fact, in 2007 there were 2,400 Christian bookstores in the US. By 2011 that number had dropped to 900 and has continued to fall ever since.

Fact, per capita spending on consumer travel in the US peaked in 2007, contracted through 2010, and has only marginally recovered since.

I'm not sure that sales in Christian book stores translates to attendance of the national tournament.

Because Christian bookstores (specifically church and smaller independent stores) were the backbone of Cactus's distribution strategy. They were the place where a large number of kid or his parents first saw and took a flyer on an interesting game.

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Additionally, per capita spending has grown since 2011, while attendance has sharply dropped. The economy might be a factor in the game's initial decline, but there's no correlation later on.

I am not sure your premise is correct given the fact that Nationals had a (marginally) higher attendance in 2012 than they did in 2010, which fact stands in opposition to your claim of a sharp drop.

I could almost buy the "no new cards at all" argument, but trying to tie attendance declines into lack of ultra-rares is just not supported by anything at all.

LukeChips · « **Reply #5 on:** June 05, 2014, 01:10:23 PM »

Cactus is relying on individual players to be evangelistic and spread the game to other people.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #6 on:** June 06, 2014, 05:42:03 PM »

special promo card for tourney host?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #7 on:** June 06, 2014, 05:50:34 PM »

Quote from: LukeChips on June 05, 2014, 01:10:23 PM

Cactus is relying on individual players to be evangelistic and spread the game to other people.

Word of mouth is a terrible marketing strategy.

The Guardian · « **Reply #8 on:** June 06, 2014, 05:52:38 PM »

Quote from: Westy on June 06, 2014, 05:50:34 PM

Quote from: LukeChips on June 05, 2014, 01:10:23 PM
Cactus is relying on individual players to be evangelistic and spread the game to other people.
Word of mouth is a terrible marketing strategy.

Said no one ever...

Daniel · « **Reply #9 on:** June 06, 2014, 08:29:25 PM »

Let's get some more spoilers!

DrowningFish · « **Reply #10 on:** June 06, 2014, 10:29:01 PM »

Quote from: Westy on June 06, 2014, 05:50:34 PM

Quote from: LukeChips on June 05, 2014, 01:10:23 PM
Cactus is relying on individual players to be evangelistic and spread the game to other people.
Word of mouth is a terrible marketing strategy.

That's the only reason I started playing was word of mouth.

Quote from: Daniel on June 06, 2014, 08:29:25 PM

Let's get some more spoilers!

I agree! Something non clay brigade though...spark too much controversy.

Drrek · « **Reply #11 on:** June 06, 2014, 10:31:34 PM »

Quote from: DrowningFish on June 06, 2014, 10:29:01 PM

Quote from: Westy on June 06, 2014, 05:50:34 PM
Quote from: LukeChips on June 05, 2014, 01:10:23 PM
Cactus is relying on individual players to be evangelistic and spread the game to other people.
Word of mouth is a terrible marketing strategy.

That's the only reason I started playing was word of mouth.

A significant portion of people who play started because of word of mouth, as is expected because the game is advertised through word of mouth. However this does not mean its a good marketing strategy.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #12 on:** June 06, 2014, 10:38:12 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on June 06, 2014, 10:31:34 PM

Quote from: DrowningFish on June 06, 2014, 10:29:01 PM
Quote from: Westy on June 06, 2014, 05:50:34 PM
Quote from: LukeChips on June 05, 2014, 01:10:23 PM
Cactus is relying on individual players to be evangelistic and spread the game to other people.
Word of mouth is a terrible marketing strategy.

That's the only reason I started playing was word of mouth.

A significant portion of people who play started because of word of mouth, as is expected because the game is advertised through word of mouth. However this does not mean its a good marketing strategy.

For SOME things, word of mouth is not the best. For Redemption, though, it has been very useful.

DDiceRC · « **Reply #13 on:** June 06, 2014, 11:06:03 PM »

The problem with other forms of advertising/marketing is the sheer expense. I don't know what Redemption's sales figures are, but when the company I work with looked at doing an ad in a national game magazine, it would have cost us our entire year's income. (We are a very small company.) There are a few outlets that aren't too bad (we've had some hits from the Bring Your A Game web site), but convention presence and word-of-mouth are our most cost-effective means of spreading the word. Redemption does the same thing through the tournament system, and I know Rob does trade and marketing shows, which get you in front of retailers.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #14 on:** June 07, 2014, 03:03:21 AM »

Word of mouth is extremely finicky, and with Redemption having such a niche market as Christian nerds, it's not going to be the best. Nerds in general are anti-social, and admitting you play TCGs is generally not the first thing people do. Furthermore, Christian products are often looked at as knock-offs. Word of Mouth needs to reach a tipping point to make the gigantic shifts it's been known to make, but for a Christian TCG, I imagine that tipping point is much more difficult to reach.

Word of mouth is effective, but unreliable.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #15 on:** June 07, 2014, 07:01:02 AM »

Quote from: Westy on June 07, 2014, 03:03:21 AM

Word of mouth is effective, but unreliable.

"Word of Mouth" has evolved due to Social Media. Owl City (and unfortunately Justin Beiber) got their start due to the "word of mouth" YouTube afforded them. It is possible to start a national marketing campaign through Social Media, but to have a "professional" company run it would still cost thousands of dollars (my wife runs social media for a company, so I know this from experience). Whereas, Redemption could use the help of people like us, who would spread the word through our own social media outlets, and not get paid (which is the more realistic definition of "Word of Mouth").

whiteandgold7 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 07, 2014, 08:05:15 AM »

Word of Mouth, got me interested, and I have used that methodology to get others interested. It has been effective. It may not be the best strategy, but it has gotten a lot of our long term players into the fold. I have been playing for 18 years.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #17 on:** June 07, 2014, 12:03:52 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 07, 2014, 07:01:02 AM

Quote from: Westy on June 07, 2014, 03:03:21 AM
Word of mouth is effective, but unreliable.

"Word of Mouth" has evolved due to Social Media. Owl City (and unfortunately Justin Beiber) got their start due to the "word of mouth" YouTube afforded them. It is possible to start a national marketing campaign through Social Media, but to have a "professional" company run it would still cost thousands of dollars (my wife runs social media for a company, so I know this from experience). Whereas, Redemption could use the help of people like us, who would spread the word through our own social media outlets, and not get paid (which is the more realistic definition of "Word of Mouth").

Do you know how many other musicians have gone nowhere using the same method?

Quote from: whiteandgold7 on June 07, 2014, 08:05:15 AM

Word of Mouth, got me interested, and I have used that methodology to get others interested. It has been effective. It may not be the best strategy, but it has gotten a lot of our long term players into the fold. I have been playing for 18 years.

"Effective" is relative here. Because it's the only strategy Cactus has used, and the game is still alive, it's easy to give it the nod. Pretty much all of us are here because of word of mouth, but the fact of the matter is that there's less players now than there were 10 years ago. That's not a good sign.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #18 on:** June 07, 2014, 12:35:28 PM »

Quote from: Westy on June 07, 2014, 12:03:52 PM

Do you know how many other musicians have gone nowhere using the same method?

I was just paralleling the idea of Word of Mouth. If you are suggesting that Social Media is not a good way to advertise in the modern era (as a Word of Mouth alternative), then I strongly disagree with you.

LukeChips · « **Reply #19 on:** June 07, 2014, 02:56:13 PM »

I learned about Redemption when my Dad was looking for a alternative game to MTG on the internet.

Sadness · « **Reply #20 on:** June 09, 2014, 10:53:41 PM »

Does anyone know if they're re - releasing a Stephen card since he was a church leader as well has being the first martyr. And can we please, pretty please see another new card on here.

Chris · « **Reply #21 on:** June 10, 2014, 12:09:15 AM »

I'm actually curious about this. Is there anyone active today who wasn't introduced via word of mouth?

Drrek · « **Reply #22 on:** June 10, 2014, 12:14:02 AM »

Quote from: Chris on June 10, 2014, 12:09:15 AM

I'm actually curious about this. Is there anyone active today who wasn't introduced via word of mouth?

Quote from: LukeChips on June 07, 2014, 02:56:13 PM

I learned about Redemption when my Dad was looking for a alternative game to MTG on the internet.

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #23 on:** June 10, 2014, 12:16:26 AM »

I was introduced to the game by a booth set up by David Easterling at Spirit Fest at Kings Island just outside of Cincinnati. He did use words from his mouth...

galadgawyn · « **Reply #24 on:** June 10, 2014, 12:18:55 AM »

Yes. I was introduced to the game when my parents found the original starter deck in a Christian book store and got it for a Christmas present. I remember the excitement of Prophets coming out and how strong the cards were in comparison to the original.

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Author Topic: How did you learn about Redemption? Word of Mouth or... (Read 6737 times)

Chris

Warrior_Monk

LukeChips

Warrior_Monk

Daniel

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

LukeChips

Chris