Author Topic: Heroic Nephilim (Read 19387 times)

Sadness · « **Reply #25 on:** March 27, 2018, 12:50:08 PM »

I apologize first if this offends anyone.

When I first heard about the Nephilim, I started looking into various sites for clarification on the subject matter. Jewish sites, Biblical archaeology sites and others, there was always different viewpoints concerning the subject matter.

On one hand, the verses in Genesis falls into what some people call a 'gray' area...meaning the subject doesn't have a clear cut answer. Not like the verse: In the beginning,God...that's clear. On the other hand, the descendants of the Nephilim always seemed to be against God's chosen people, the Israelites. I mean, can anyone find a verse where there was a giant fighting alongside the israelites?

I vote that the Nephilim become an evil character and chose someone else to be the dual alignment character..King Solomon maybe?

Watchman · « **Reply #26 on:** March 27, 2018, 12:56:29 PM »

I love the idea of a dual-alignment King Solomon.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #27 on:** March 27, 2018, 01:19:40 PM »

Just picking another random character to be dual alignment won’t replace this character unless they have the same brigades. A couple cards exist in the current pool and have been spoiled for this set that support black defense/red offense synergy and nephilim being a DAC that is specifically red and black is important.

goalieking87 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 27, 2018, 01:52:25 PM »

Just in case anyone is keeping a vote count, I would also vote that Nephilim be changed to solely an EC.

Red Wing · « **Reply #29 on:** March 27, 2018, 02:10:03 PM »

Nephilim as a hero makes the game cooler so I'm all for it. Redemption should be a CCG first and a 'bible' game second.

The Guardian · « **Reply #30 on:** March 27, 2018, 02:17:34 PM »

For the record, there is no vote on this issue, (we used voting for the Community Created Card

), but I can say that at least for me personally, I am reading all feedback that has been shared and following up with my own examination of the Scripture passages that have been brought up.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #31 on:** March 27, 2018, 02:22:25 PM »

Quote from: Red Wing on March 27, 2018, 02:10:03 PM

Nephilim as a hero makes the game cooler so I'm all for it. Redemption should be a CCG first and a 'bible' game second.

Yay, another member* for the Save Que Foundation!

*Or maybe Red Wing was already a member of SQF. I forget.

Red Wing · « **Reply #32 on:** March 27, 2018, 02:30:35 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 27, 2018, 02:22:25 PM

Quote from: Red Wing on March 27, 2018, 02:10:03 PM
Nephilim as a hero makes the game cooler so I'm all for it. Redemption should be a CCG first and a 'bible' game second.
Yay, another member* for the Save Que Foundation!

*Or maybe Red Wing was already a member of SQF. I forget.

Spoiler (hover to show)

Please accept my humble application. Do I get a tat?

YeshuaIsLord · « **Reply #33 on:** March 27, 2018, 08:14:48 PM »

I think the Gen 6 giants were as bad as it gets and pretty much the reason for the flood in the first place. Making them heroes in Redemption is just macabre!

Quote from: jesse on March 26, 2018, 09:55:11 PM

I definitely don't believe the "demon offspring" view, that demons or angels can have children with human women. Angels and humans are completely different kinds of creatures and God very clearly established a reproductive barrier in Gen. 1 ("according to their kind")

Somehow Mary was "impregnated" and received some kind of seed in order to bring forth Jesus...
Is this as found in ancient Mesopotamia (bible times) just fantasy or does it relate to this (which is part of your bible and there for a reason?)
Angels can take on human form after all
Let's throw some "science" in there!
And some more science...

Quote from: Xonathan on March 27, 2018, 09:57:21 AM

Just to understand your (Red's) points better, does the Job 2 references of the “sons of God” have to mean an angelic counsel? Could I not understand this just to mean humans presenting themselves before God? The Bible refers to us (humans) as sons of God more than it does angels right?

As for the identity of the sons of God (Insight from the academic community. Heiser has good content on this and other topics)
I would argue that the idea of believers being "sons of God" is foreign to the OT. The NT usage of that phrase must be interpreted in light of it's usage in the OT. I would argue that this phrase refers to the "inner circle" of God. The one's ruling with and on behalf of God. In that sense we become sons of God and displace the rebellious and unholy one's that have become the powers and principalities the evil powers of darkness in the spiritual realm that are referenced in Ephesians 6. See also Psalm 82. These "gods" which are called "sons of the Most High" are sentenced to "die like men" which implies they aren't mere mortals like we are (humans).

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
The angels in heaven do not marry and produce offspring. The one's that left heaven ("their first estate" as Jude puts it) did. That's why Jesus adds "in heaven". He isn't denying the fact that the evil angels did procreate but actually hints at this.

Quote from: Watchman492 on March 26, 2018, 05:50:15 PM

At the very least perhaps a vote from the community on whether it should only be an EC or a DAC is warranted. I feel that leaving Nephilim as a DAC is a mistake that will be regretted later and is already leaving a bad taste in some people's mouths. If one looks at the Hebrew definition of Nephilim it's one of negative connotation, not anything good.

At any rate, please let this be discussed in the Redemption community instead of just making the decision without valid input from us.

Positive feedback:
I like the art on "Nephilim" and the decision that you'll give the giants some more publicity which I think is great because the "Gen 6 incident" has ramifications for the entirety of scripture. I believe we will be able to make sense out of a lot of "strange" passages once we find out about the giants and the related matters. I think this will cause people to investigate the scriptures more closely and find things they didn't expect. Great job!

Watchman · « **Reply #34 on:** March 27, 2018, 11:42:07 PM »

Quote from: jesse on March 26, 2018, 09:55:11 PM

The reason this is such a tough issue is there are only two verses in the entire Bible in which the Nephilim are mentioned: Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33. (I don't take the Book of Enoch as being a source with the same level of credibility at all as The Bible since it's not in the Bible.)

Just because a book wasn’t canonized by the Catholic Church or Martin Luther doesn’t mean it’s not credible. If you believe Jude, which is in the Bible, then you indirectly believe the book of Enoch (at least in part) because Jude quoted from it at least two times in his tiny epistle. If you read Enoch you’ll see how it reads so much like the New Testament. This is due, in part, and is widely believed by scholars, that this book helped shape thinking in NT times. It was also among the Dead Sea Scrolls. It’s logical to think that if the Essenes (the writers of the DSS) were as devote as they were they wouldn’t have kept that book among the Tanak (Torah, Prophets, and Writings...aka the Old Testament) if they felt it was blasphemous.

Something to keep in mind in your research.

jesse · « **Reply #35 on:** March 28, 2018, 12:45:30 AM »

Thanks for the info.

I think it's very important to stick to the 66 canonized Books of the Bible only as being inerrant because:

- God is sovereign over His Word
- its purposes are extremely important to Him and for us
- it is ultimately written by the Holy Spirit and therefore is perfect
- it will last forever, even into the eternal and perfect age

Therefore I believe that there's a world of difference in credibility, authority, and reliability of accuracy between the 66 canonized Books and any other human work. Not that another work can't have value, historical or otherwise, but everything else is a whole 'nother level way down from The Word of God.

As for the Book of Enoch specifically, I've never read it and personally don't want to get mixed up in my theology or even just in remembering what is from the actual Bible and what is a gnostic work. Again, it may have historical value as you mentioned, but its teaching about demons impregnating human women contradicts the Bible on many points and some very important principles (especially regarding creation and salvation), as I've tried to explain some in my previous posts.

Also, remembering that Joel didn't ultimately write the Book of Joel but the eternal, almighty Holy Spirit did through him, then the Book of Joel cannot be quoting from the book ot Enoch - it must be the other way around (again, ultimately). All Scipture comes from God (2 Timothy 3:16)- God is not copying from people for content outside of His knowledge for His eternal Word...and God did not ultimately author the book of Enoch, or else it would not contradict the 66 (and be among them).

I have learned that this is a common thing about gnostic gospels, "extra" books of the Bible, etc - they contradict the canonized 66 Books in various ways. From a human point of view, we could say perhaps this is why they were left out of the canonized 66, but once again, knowing that the Holy Spirit is ultimately the author of the entire Bible, ultimately it was God Who made the decision - no doubt for many perfect reasons. These works can perhaps have some historical value, but they should not be trusted at all on the same level as The Bible.

For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.- 2 Peter 1:16-21

Watchman · « **Reply #36 on:** March 28, 2018, 09:16:44 AM »

I want to clarify something that I realize I didn't in my last post. I am a firm believer in the inspired word of God and that the Bible we have is most certainly inspired by the Holy Spirit. I am not saying that the book of Enoch is inspired scripture. I was making the point that just because it wasn't canonized doesn't mean it doesn't have any credibility to it. It is a fact that it did influence thought in some form or fashion in NT times by some of the NT believers we know from scripture. These other non-canonical books can be considered to contain some historical fact, and valued as such (not dismissed), but that doesn't necessarily mean they were inspired by God.

In regards to the book of Joel (I believe you meant the book of Jude), I'm not quite understanding what you mean by "it must be the other way around," but this is my point: that if Jude was speaking through inspiration he was inspired, through the Holy Spirit, to quote the book of Enoch. It was quoted for a reason. The same with his quote from the Assumption of Moses when he was talking about Michael not rebuking Satan. In an article I located, which appears to support both of our positions (see below), these quotes are also in line with the Torah and Prophets, anyways. And since Jude was a Jewish man, he would have known these scriptures from the Tanak.

For the record, the book of Enoch was not a gnostic gospel; it existed well before these arrived on the scene. The gnostic gospels are a completely different animal in that they clearly contradict the gospel/gospel story in so many ways.

In regards to the angels having relations with human women, I understand that this is a tough subject that not many will believe. But if angels can take on clear human form and eat earthly food (Gen. 18:8 ), and men wanting to have sexual relations with them (Gen. 19:5), and demonic spirits are known to have sexual relations with humans even to this day (Incubus and Succubus spirits), then it is possible (but not proven, unless the Genesis 6 incident was, in fact, fallen angels that did somehow impregnate women who eventually bore their children), that they could create some warped half-breed creature. This, I'm sure, will remain debatable for a long while as it has over the past millennium.

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/nt-difficulties/jude/jude-9-14-15-why-does-jude-quote-the-assumption-of-moses-v-9-and-the-book-of-enoch-v-14-15/

CactusRob · « **Reply #37 on:** March 28, 2018, 09:45:51 AM »

The following is from The Book of Tobit that is accepted as part of the Old Testament Canon by the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church and the Anglican Church. It tells the story of the Angel Raphael helping a family in need. I have highlighted a few parts with comments:

6Then Raphael called the two of them privately and said to them, "Bless God and acknowledge him in the presence of all the living for the good things he has done for you. Bless and sing praise to his name. With fitting honor declare to all people the deeds of God. Do not be slow to acknowledge him. 7It is good to conceal the secret of a king, but to acknowledge and reveal the works of God, and with fitting honor to acknowledge him. Do good and evil will not overtake you. 8Prayer with fasting is good, but better than both is almsgiving with righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than wealth with wrongdoing. It is better to give alms than to lay up gold. 9For almsgiving saves from death and purges away every sin. Those who give alms will enjoy a full life, 10but those who commit sin and do wrong are their own worst enemies. 11"I will now declare the whole truth to you and will conceal nothing from you. Already I have declared it to you when I said, 'It is good to conceal the secret of a king, but to reveal with due honor the works of God.' 12So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, and likewise whenever you would bury the dead. 13And that time when you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner to go and bury the dead, 14I was sent to you to test you. And at the same time God sent me to heal you and Sarah your daughter-in-law. 15I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ready and enter before the glory of the Lord."
Verse 9 was problematic for Luther and may have contributed to his decision to exclude this book from the Protestant canon. I personally accept this book as part of the canon because the Catholic Church tells me it is. But, I think it also curious that a main point of this story is discussed by Jesus and the Sadduccess in Matthew 22:23-30 (woman with Seven husbands).

16The two of them were shaken; they fell face down, for they were afraid. 17But he said to them, "Do not be afraid; peace be with you. Bless God forevermore. 18As for me, when I was with you, I was not acting on my own will, but by the will of God. Bless him each and every day; sing his praises. 19Although you were watching me, I really did not eat or drink anything--but what you saw was a vision. 20So now get up from the ground,g and acknowledge God. See, I am ascending to him who sent me. Write down all these things that have happened to you." And he ascended. 21Then they stood up, and could see him no more. 22They kept blessing God and singing his praises, and they acknowledged God for these marvelous deeds of his, when an angel of God had appeared to them.
This furthers the argument that Jesse and others here have made that Angels are spiritual beings; not eating or drinking or procreating. As far as I know the Catholic Church has no official position on "son's of god" having relations with "daughters of men." The popular view among most theologians these days is sons of Seth marrying daughters of Cain. How this produced Giants is hard to explain. But all this to say, I don't think that a union between as son of Seth and a daughter of Cain is going to produce a man that is by definition more evil that any one of us who bears the stain of original sin. Therefore, it is not too far a reach that the card in question can be of dual alignment.

Great discussion here and that was always one of my hopes for this game.

jesse · « **Reply #38 on:** March 28, 2018, 10:58:19 AM »

@Watchman thanks for the thoughtful response, and yes, I meant the Book of Jude, not Joel, sorry

I did a Bible study on angels recently, and in response to your point about "men wanting to have sexual relations with them (Gen. 19:5)", I believe that this is because in that particular event the angels appeared human (as surely Abraham believed they were when the three "men" first visited him in Genesis 18). The wicked men of Sodom and Gomorrah clearly had no idea that these were really angels who could have killed them all in seconds.

Overall, from my study I learned that it is most likely from Scripture that angels have the ability to change their form/appearance. Some reasons why I believe this are:

1) Sometimes in Scripture, angels are mistaken for people by people (Genesis 18, Hebrews 13:2)
2) Sometimes in Scripture, when a person sees an angel they know that they are an angels, and are terrified by their holiness and might (Luke 2:9)
3) Sometimes in Scripture, angels are around but people can't see them (2 Kings 6:15-17) - obviously this is the everyday reality for everyone the vast majority of the time
4) 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 says that Satan is able to transform/masquerade himself as an angel of light, and depending on if "his ministers" refers to demons in v. 15, it also states that demons are able to do this as well:

"But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." - 2 Cor. 11:13-15

As for angels eating food, we know that angels can interact physically with the material world, and yet can (obviously) go between heaven and earth, battle demons in the spirit realm, appear and speak in dreams and visions, and be near God's throne. They have supernatural bodies, clearly. The fact that they can eat food though doesn't mean they have sexual organs (for the reasons I described in one of my previous posts in this thread)...perhaps it is similar to how in Heaven we will eat, but there are no verses suggesting that there will be sex in Heaven (and I believe most would assume that there isn't due to Jesus' statement in Mark 12:25).

A funny side-note: one of our pastors has a conundrum he likes to ask for fun sometimes: "After the resurrected Jesus ate the fish with His disciples and then traveled through the wall to visit them, did the fish go with Jesus through the wall?"

that's definitely a head-scratcher to me

jesse · « **Reply #39 on:** March 28, 2018, 11:19:33 AM »

Quote from: CactusRob

Great discussion here and that was always one of my hopes for this game.

Thank you, Rob! This game has been such a blessing to so many people!!

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #40 on:** March 28, 2018, 11:57:32 AM »

Something I don't believe I've seen mentioned here is that shouldn't, for a character to be a hero, they be more than just not evil? From what I've read there seems to be either no clear view of the Nephilim or a negative connotation connected to them. Shouldn't a character have to have done something good to be considered a hero? I love the card Nephilim, I love how the brigades and themes all work together, but I don't want him to be a hero just because he's a cool card and we can't prove he was good or evil when he clearly has a negative connotation throughout history and scripture.

Xonathan · « **Reply #41 on:** March 28, 2018, 12:00:39 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on March 28, 2018, 11:57:32 AM

Something I don't believe I've seen mentioned here is that shouldn't, for a character to be a hero, they be more than just not evil? From what I've read there seems to be either no clear view of the Nephilim or a negative connotation connected to them. Shouldn't a character have to have done something good to be considered a hero? I love the card Nephilim, I love how the brigades and themes all work together, but I don't want him to be a hero just because he's a cool card and we can't prove he was good or evil when he clearly has a negative connotation throughout history and scripture.

It all goes back to the Bible verse (Genesis 6:4) calling them mighty warriors and men of renown. Other translations even use the word hero or heroes.

The Guardian · « **Reply #42 on:** March 28, 2018, 12:36:23 PM »

I want to echoes Rob's sentiment that this has been a really good discussion, and I appreciate that he took the time to read through the great points brought up. Even though the discussion was started out of frustration by Polarius, I have learned through discussion with him and reading others posts that it is a topic that some people feel very strongly about. Personally, I had never given it much thought or done much research, which is why I originally was fine with the DA option. This discussion led me to dig into it further (which I know other people have said as well), and I came to realizations that I had never considered before (such as the fact that the "giant" gene was somehow passed through the Flood Survivors).

In the end, it was not important to me personally whether we had a DAC Nephilim, an evil only Nephilim or no Nephilim at all--I just wanted this community to avoid having something that would create a rift or negative feelings towards each other. There are many passionate people with varying viewpoints on many different topics represented here, and that is an awesome thing. As I mentioned before, when we as the playtest/Elder team are working on a set, we cannot turn every aspect of every card into a vote like the community card. Hopefully we can move forward and continue having good discussions like this with future cards as Rob expressed.

YeshuaIsLord · « **Reply #43 on:** March 28, 2018, 09:00:52 PM »

If you by no means want to drop the DA aspect couldn't you keep the concept of the card but change the character from Nephilim to something else? Maybe that would work. I mean if you want to have a card like this have it but why does it have to be a/the Nephilim? I think it's evident that it's the great majority that either objects to keeping the card a DA or at least is hesitant to do so. I think no unholy character should be able to rescue lost souls. I believe printing a Nephilim as DA would stir unnecessary trouble so I suggest avoiding the issue by keeping the concept but changing it to another character. Why not change it to an angel? One of the sons of God? A watcher angel (like in Daniel 4:17) or something similar? I think it's evident in scripture that those can be either good or bad so they would fit the concept of the card.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #44 on:** March 28, 2018, 10:22:03 PM »

I mean thematically and historically, O.T Israelite's and other notable characters that were recorded following God explicitly in the Bible are the heroes in Redemption. I could see a gripe about that or even frustration because of feeling like its inaccurate. But I don't understand a theological one at all. If you think about it there are heroes all over, in every tribe, following God too. So if you think you had to be a God fearing Jew then or a professing Christian now to save souls, its time to mature.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #45 on:** March 28, 2018, 10:24:32 PM »

Quote from: YeshuaIsLord on March 28, 2018, 09:00:52 PM

If you by no means want to drop the DA aspect couldn't you keep the concept of the card but change the character from Nephilim to something else? Maybe that would work. I mean if you want to have a card like this have it but why does it have to be a/the Nephilim? I think it's evident that it's the great majority that either objects to keeping the card a DA or at least is hesitant to do so. I think no unholy character should be able to rescue lost souls. I believe printing a Nephilim as DA would stir unnecessary trouble so I suggest avoiding the issue by keeping the concept but changing it to another character. Why not change it to an angel? One of the sons of God? A watcher angel (like in Daniel 4:17) or something similar? I think it's evident in scripture that those can be either good or bad so they would fit the concept of the card.

The issue is that to fit the current card's position in the set it needs to be Black, Pale Green, Red, Blue, a Giant, a Warrior, and an Antediluvian. Each one of things is very important to this card.

Watchman · « **Reply #46 on:** March 28, 2018, 10:53:19 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on March 28, 2018, 10:22:03 PM

If you think about it there are heroes all over, in every tribe, following God too. So if you think you had to be a God fearing Jew then or a professing Christian now to save souls, its time to mature.

Huh?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #47 on:** March 28, 2018, 10:55:33 PM »

I really don't think that the primary issue has been resolved by Rob's post. The problem with Nephilim is the historical context. There are certain beings that have been traditionally viewed as evil (i.e. witches, vampires, zombies). To make a traditionally evil character a hero just for gameplay purposes is silly. Interestingly, it does follow the world's pattern of making evil become good, just like Hollywood has hero witches, hero vampires, and hero zombies. I just feel that we should not follow the world's lead in this case.

The fact that the Nephilim could have been nice guys is irrelevant. They simply were not. That's why we don't have a DA Taskmaster. They simply weren't nice guys.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #48 on:** March 28, 2018, 11:14:14 PM »

The big concern I have over this is what it basically implies when this is treated as a DA character v.s. what is implied as an EC. As an EC the only implications are those all men were wicked including the nephilim. This is scripturally supported because it literally talks about the nephilim and the literal next verse talks about how all men were wicked. Now if this card is treated as a DA character basically we are implying that there is scriptural evidence that the nephilim were good. Not just that they Weren't necessarily evil but some were good. Biblically based on genesis this is not supported in my mind based on the verse that follows the verse concerning nephilim (I think its genesis 6: 1-5 that contains the passage I'm referencing but I'm not 100% sure) if we are to consider the nephilim to be men. The whole arguement of the nephilim being from the line of seth doesn't seem to fit well with me because that would still be men and all men were wicked according to the referenced passage. Only Noah and his family found grace with God according to genesis. So if the nephilim are men I feel they fall under the mens hearts were only evil continually portion. If they are not men then what are they? That's were the cryptic part of the nephilim comes into play which I will choose to not debate but rather present that there are at least 2 side and those are that the nephilim are evil beings products of unintended procreation or they are something outside this/not inherently evil because of their unintended existence if it was unintended. The jist of what I'll get at is more so that I am uncomfortable with the possiblity that the nephilim are in fact evil and ungodly and we ignore this because its cryptic and arguable and make the nephilim heros in redemption that represent godly beings that can save souls to start.

Theologically speaking there isn't much difference in an arguement for a da nephilim than there is for a da Lucifer except that we know a little more about the fall of Lucifer. Lucifer was a godly angel at one time though so if Lucifer was ever printed would he be DA? I know that is an extreme example but I am trying to demonstrate that even the possibility that the nephilim were strictly evil can't be dismissed because its cryptic. It's not like Judas who was a disciple of christ who betrayed him. There is evidence for a good side and evil side there so it is at least understandable. But to make the nephilim good based on what little we know about them using interpretations that are very debatable is not something I think redemption should delve into. If nephilim is to be printed I feel It should only be evil based on what concrete evidence we have biblically and that being mens hearts were continually filled with evil. If we are uncomfortable with printing the nephilim as only evil I would suggest not printing them as it is theologically not a safe topic just as much as a holy mother virgin Mary card would be or a DA Lucifer.

Redemption should try to maintain unity within christ as much as possible and I don't think any one side should have to have its theological views pushed to the side for the sake of a card.

Just my

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #49 on:** March 28, 2018, 11:14:42 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 28, 2018, 10:55:33 PM

I really don't think that the primary issue has been resolved by Rob's post. The problem with Nephilim is the historical context. There are certain beings that have been traditionally viewed as evil (i.e. witches, vampires, zombies). To make a traditionally evil character a hero just for gameplay purposes is silly. Interestingly, it does follow the world's pattern of making evil become good, just like Hollywood has hero witches, hero vampires, and hero zombies. I just feel that we should not follow the world's lead in this case.

The fact that the Nephilim could have been nice guys is irrelevant. They simply were not. That's why we don't have a DA Taskmaster. They simply weren't nice guys.

I will preface getting involved in this discussion by saying I am not a Biblical scholar and I haven't researched original Hebrew versions of the text to find potential meanings lost in translation and all that, however I just don't see enough from the passage in question that allows you to lump these guys in with witches, vampires, etc. Regardless of how the Nephilim came to be, the only descriptions of their actual actions is "They were the heroes of old, men of renown". I see nothing in that sentence that disqualifies them from being Heroes in Redemption.

Maybe there were all terrible people, maybe they were half demon monsters, maybe they were relatively normal humans (aside from being huge). We simply do not know what they were. They could have been anything, and I believe a Dual Alignment card accurately reflects that.

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Author Topic: Heroic Nephilim (Read 19387 times)

TheHobbit13