Author Topic: Harry Potter (Read 15589 times)

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #75 on:** December 29, 2011, 02:25:40 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 29, 2011, 01:36:24 PM

I'm glad that you're at least shooting for consistency, Mark.

I'm always striving for consistency, not just in movie watching decisions, but in all aspects of life. My motto for life is "Make God happy!", and I want my whole life to do that

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 29, 2011, 01:36:24 PM

if you're worried about your kids thinking the series is real, well then they're probably too young for it to begin with.

This makes me think of that Superbowl commercial with the little kid who tries to use his Darth Vader powers to start his dad's car. I agree with you that different age kids (and different kids in general) will find it more or less difficult to separate fiction from reality. The problem though is knowing when a kid thinks they are ready to tell the difference, and when they really are. Young people are notorious for thinking that stuff doesn't affect them when in reality it still does quite a lot.

Quote from: stefferweffer on December 29, 2011, 01:41:45 PM

Am I right in assuming that every Christian opposed to Harry Potter and "magic" in general believes that the Devil and Demons are actually performing "false miracles" and magic today?

I think that the Devil and Demons powers are quite a bit more limited than God's are of course. And I think that most "magic" seen today is simply illusions and showmanship used for entertainment of to con people for more nefarious purposes. However, I also believe that there are some times when supernatural events occur that do not come from God. The Bible talks about demon-possessed people being super strong, or throwing themselves into fires. It also talks about Satan doing some pretty supernaturally bad stuff to Job. I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that these things sometimes still happen. I have also heard stories about Ouija boards that actually gave answers that would have been impossible to know. I think that to completely blow off the evil side of the supernatural is a dangerous worldview (of course I also think it is dangerous to live in fear of it or to be overly preoccupied with it).

The Warrior · « **Reply #76 on:** December 29, 2011, 02:56:51 PM »

Who Says You can't Have Magic that Comes From God?
Most People Call "God Magic", "Miracles", probably to separate it from more dark "magics", but what does it matter what you call it? it is what it is No matter what you call it.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #77 on:** December 29, 2011, 03:35:48 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 29, 2011, 02:25:40 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 29, 2011, 01:36:24 PM
I'm glad that you're at least shooting for consistency, Mark.
I'm always striving for consistency, not just in movie watching decisions, but in all aspects of life. My motto for life is "Make God happy!", and I want my whole life to do that

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on December 29, 2011, 01:36:24 PM
if you're worried about your kids thinking the series is real, well then they're probably too young for it to begin with.
This makes me think of that Superbowl commercial with the little kid who tries to use his Darth Vader powers to start his dad's car. I agree with you that different age kids (and different kids in general) will find it more or less difficult to separate fiction from reality. The problem though is knowing when a kid thinks they are ready to tell the difference, and when they really are. Young people are notorious for thinking that stuff doesn't affect them when in reality it still does quite a lot.

Quote from: stefferweffer on December 29, 2011, 01:41:45 PM
Am I right in assuming that every Christian opposed to Harry Potter and "magic" in general believes that the Devil and Demons are actually performing "false miracles" and magic today?
I think that the Devil and Demons powers are quite a bit more limited than God's are of course. And I think that most "magic" seen today is simply illusions and showmanship used for entertainment of to con people for more nefarious purposes. However, I also believe that there are some times when supernatural events occur that do not come from God. The Bible talks about demon-possessed people being super strong, or throwing themselves into fires. It also talks about Satan doing some pretty supernaturally bad stuff to Job. I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that these things sometimes still happen. I have also heard stories about Ouija boards that actually gave answers that would have been impossible to know. I think that to completely blow off the evil side of the supernatural is a dangerous worldview (of course I also think it is dangerous to live in fear of it or to be overly preoccupied with it).

Yes, but I'm sure you'd agree that both in the examples of Job and demon possession, Satan had to have God's "permission" to do those things, or at least be allowed to do it. In the case of Job, God had greater things planned for him, so He let it happen. In the case of demon possession, God was also providing His servants with the ability to cast these demons out, in the hopes that it would lead them to Christ.

But I don't consider what happened to Job, nor demon possession, to be "magic" or "sorcery". Those didn't result in more followers of the devil. My question is if you believe that God allows the devil and demons to let their servants perform truly supernatural signs/miracles so that they may attract more followers. Like you mentioned the Ouija boards users. What possible benefit could come from allowing the supernatural abilities that those mediums claim to actually be true? And if I went to that medium, and witnessed this, why would I believe the bible instead? Like I said, signs were to confirm the word/message. If I witness a sign, then the doctrine of the person who performed it has been confirmed, hasn't it? (And yes, I've heard all the STORIES about these things too. Sounds to me like a great way to sell more Ouija boards and increase the business of "psychics"

)

And I'm sorry to digress. I won't say anymore about it here. If someone starts another thread about it one day I may say some more. Thanks.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #78 on:** December 29, 2011, 04:02:15 PM »

Quote from: The Warrior on December 29, 2011, 02:56:51 PM

Most People Call "God Magic", "Miracles", probably to separate it from more dark "magics", but what does it matter what you call it? it is what it is No matter what you call it.

I agree that God does supernatural stuff (miracles) that can look a lot like evil supernatural stuff (magic) or even just illusions (tricks). I'm just saying that it is important to differentiate between them. I make pennies appear in my empty hands, but my kids know that I'm just tricking them and can't REALLY make pennies appear out of nowhere. Similarly I think it's important for books/movies/etc. to make the distinction between "God Magic" and "dark magics" and to NOT glorify the latter.

Quote from: stefferweffer on December 29, 2011, 03:35:48 PM

Yes, but I'm sure you'd agree that both in the examples of Job and demon possession, Satan had to have God's "permission" to do those things, or at least be allowed to do it.

Yes, I totally agree that Satan's power is completely dependent and subservient to the will of God.

Quote from: stefferweffer on December 29, 2011, 03:35:48 PM

My question is if you believe that God allows the devil and demons to let their servants perform truly supernatural signs/miracles so that they may attract more followers.

God allows Satan to lie to people all the time to tempt them to sin. Satan is a supernatural being, so I don't know why he couldn't use that to his advantage.

Quote from: stefferweffer on December 29, 2011, 03:35:48 PM

And if I went to that medium, and witnessed this, why would I believe the bible instead?

Because God does not change. If the Bible says one thing, and the Ouija board, or the ghost that appears at your local medium's office says something different, then you should believe the Bible. Maybe the Ouija board was a set up, maybe the "ghost" was a trick. Or maybe it was real, and was a demon trying to tempt you away from God. But either way, if it contradicts scripture, then don't listen to it. And for that matter, don't even put yourself in situations that are going to lead to those situations. Don't play with Ouija boards, don't go to mediums, don't play with magic 8 balls, etc.

lp670sv · « **Reply #79 on:** December 29, 2011, 04:06:04 PM »

Harry Potter does make a distinction by labeling bad magic as the Dark Arts and not only doesn't glorify the latter, but teaches a class in Hogwartz on how to defend yourself against the Dark Arts.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #80 on:** December 29, 2011, 05:12:15 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on December 29, 2011, 04:06:04 PM

Harry Potter does make a distinction by labeling bad magic as the Dark Arts and not only doesn't glorify the latter, but teaches a class in Hogwartz on how to defend yourself against the Dark Arts.

The problem that I'm running into there though is that apparently the only difference between the "good magic" and the "Dark Arts" in HP is the intent of the spell. The source is the same. This is not the distinction that I see in a Christian worldview, where miracles come from God and evil magic comes from Satan. It is not only a difference of purpose, but also of source.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #81 on:** December 29, 2011, 05:41:19 PM »

You seem to still be hanging onto the idea that there is a "source" of the Magic in HP. There isn't, it's just an inherent ability in some humans. It's comparable to oratory. Churchill used oratory to keep England together during the airstrikes, and Hitler used oratory to unite Germany behind his Nazi war machine. What is the source of their oratory? Nothing more special than their innate ability to speak combined with education and experience. In the same way, the "magic" in HP has no ultimate source other than inborn ability, education, and experience.

In other words, rather than say "the good and evil magic have the same source," say "magic in Harry Potter has no source."

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #82 on:** December 29, 2011, 05:45:48 PM »

I just want to note that, in any future debates that may come up on the topic (either here or elsewhere), I'll likely be using that example, Pol.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #83 on:** December 30, 2011, 10:28:43 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 29, 2011, 05:41:19 PM

In other words, rather than say "the good and evil magic have the same source," say "magic in Harry Potter has no source."

That is really the same thing from my perspective though. Whether "good magic" and "evil magic" come from the same source, or from no source at all, either way they do NOT come from DIFFERENT sources. And therefore it is different from the Biblical worldview in my opinion.

As I was praying about this last night, God pointed out that I was making this too complicated. He said, that it really came down to something simple. Harry Potter is a witch. The Bible says to kill witches* The hero of a book/movie shouldn't be a witch.

* I'm not saying that we should kill all witches today, but rather that it is a clear message of God's feelings on the issue.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #84 on:** December 30, 2011, 11:01:42 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 30, 2011, 10:28:43 AM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on December 29, 2011, 05:41:19 PM
In other words, rather than say "the good and evil magic have the same source," say "magic in Harry Potter has no source."
That is really the same thing from my perspective though. Whether "good magic" and "evil magic" come from the same source, or from no source at all, either way they do NOT come from DIFFERENT sources. And therefore it is different from the Biblical worldview in my opinion.

As I was praying about this last night, God pointed out that I was making this too complicated. He said, that it really came down to something simple. Harry Potter is a witch. The Bible says to kill witches* The hero of a book/movie shouldn't be a witch.

* I'm not saying that we should kill all witches today, but rather that it is a clear message of God's feelings on the issue.

I tried to tell JK to call the student "Padawans". She never listens!

Seriously though, it sounds like you've resolved this in your conscience, which is good, but your "revelation" bothers me a little. I do think it is odd that God told you through prayer that His feelings were very clearly one way, and yet apparently told other Christians that Harry Potter was OK. It sure sounds to me, based on God's response to you, that every Christian watching Harry Potter is in sin. This is the danger of saying things like "He told me", isn't it? How/why would His answer be different for different people?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #85 on:** December 30, 2011, 11:34:15 AM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on December 30, 2011, 11:01:42 AM

It sure sounds to me, based on God's response to you, that every Christian watching Harry Potter is in sin. This is the danger of saying things like "He told me", isn't it? How/why would His answer be different for different people?

I'm not claiming that it is a sin to watch Harry Potter. However, based on my conversation with God, I am saying that it would be a sin for ME to watch Harry Potter. I don't think there's any danger there, as it won't hurt me to miss out on watching that movie.

As for why God would tell other people that it's OK to watch a movie with a witch as a hero, I really can't explain that. The Bible does seem pretty clear about God's feelings on witchcraft, and God does NOT contradict Himself. But if my fellow Christians are sure that God has told them it is OK, then I'll leave that up to them and God.

STAMP · « **Reply #86 on:** December 30, 2011, 11:39:20 AM »

I was in the mood to post something and this was the only "active" thread. I don't ever get into discussions about Harry Potter, because quite frankly, it's one of the funniest things this side of Tim Tebow. I've never seen any of the movies, so if it wasn't for the fact that it's an easy name to spell I would probably misspell or mispronounce it.

HP is fiction. The source of the fiction is a human being. 'Nuff said.

I faintly remember I may have prayed to God about it, too. I think His answer was, "Can't you find something more productive to do?"

The Warrior · « **Reply #87 on:** December 30, 2011, 12:15:46 PM »

Witch is female. Harry Is a Wizard.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #88 on:** December 30, 2011, 12:40:13 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 30, 2011, 11:34:15 AM

Quote from: stefferweffer on December 30, 2011, 11:01:42 AM
It sure sounds to me, based on God's response to you, that every Christian watching Harry Potter is in sin. This is the danger of saying things like "He told me", isn't it? How/why would His answer be different for different people?
I'm not claiming that it is a sin to watch Harry Potter. However, based on my conversation with God, I am saying that it would be a sin for ME to watch Harry Potter. I don't think there's any danger there, as it won't hurt me to miss out on watching that movie.

As for why God would tell other people that it's OK to watch a movie with a witch as a hero, I really can't explain that. The Bible does seem pretty clear about God's feelings on witchcraft, and God does NOT contradict Himself. But if my fellow Christians are sure that God has told them it is OK, then I'll leave that up to them and God.

That's sound great, but how could you NOT believe it to be sin for every person to watch Harry Potter if God just told you His very strong feelings on the matter? Consider this for a second. You could have said something like "I've studied on this and prayed about it, and for me personally it would be sin because of my feelings/beliefs on the matter." This puts it in the category of Romans 14 and other passages, where it is a matter of not violating your conscience, and I respect that.

But that's NOT what you said. You said "GOD pointed out that I made this too complicated, HE SAID that it really came down to something simple. Harry Potter is a witch. The bible says to kill witches. The hero of a book/movie shouldn't be a witch."

So now its a question of did God REALLY say that to you, as in you heard the voice of God Himself speaking those words, or was that your perceived answer to your prayer? Because if God really said what you say that He just told you, then how can it NOT be a sin for another Christian to watch Harry Potter? Based on what you said, it clearly angers God and is contrary to His will, and contrary to His law (the bible). SIN IS LAWLESSNESS, isn't it? I guess I don't understand the back-pedaling now, unless you are just not confident that it was God's voice that you heard. If God said it is a sin, then TELL US it is a sin. You do us no favor, and show us no love, if God tells you something is sinful, and you know your brethren are engaged in it, and yet you remain silent. Imagine Peter getting the vision of the sheet with unclean animals and deciding he shouldn't tell anyone because he doesn't want to cause offense, or if he said "Well God was commanding ME to stop considering the Gentiles to be unclean, but its OK for the rest of you to keep doing so." You are correct that God cannot contradict Himself. So if He said what He said to you, I REALLY want to know how that can be interpreted without concluding that watching/reading Harry Potter is a sin. Unless He didn't say what you might think He said...

As you can see, I'm very passionate about this subject. And I am not trying to be hurtful. This "I've had a revelation" and/or "I just heard God say" thing really gets on my nerves, because IT MAKES GOD INCONSISTENT. Because apparently God/Jesus/Holy Spirit keep telling different believers different things! I could tell everyone that God appeared to me and said that eating Peanut Butter is a sin. What does that accomplish? How would anyone confirm the accuracy of anything so ridiculous? The only thing that we KNOW God said is found in the bible. If you had just pointed out bible verses, and said "Here is how I interpret what God said in this passage", I'd have no problem with that, and I'd just state that I interpret those passages differently. But when we proclaim "God spoke to me and made it very clear how He feels about X", AND God cannot contradict Himself, then you are proclaiming a DIVINE TEACHING that all must follow or be judged accordingly. I just don't see any other way to interpret what you said, unless you want to ammend/clarify what exactly God told you, and in what manner He did so.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #89 on:** December 30, 2011, 12:47:53 PM »

Quote from: The Warrior on December 30, 2011, 12:15:46 PM

Witch is female. Harry Is a Wizard.

Actually it is a common misconception that witches have to be female. I have a friend who was pretty high up in this sort of stuff, and he taught me that actually there were male and female witches, and that warlock (which I previously thought was a male witch) was actually a derogatory term in Wicca.

@steffer
The message that God gave me was for me. I'm sure that it was Him speaking to me. But He was telling me that I was making it too complicated for me. Perhaps it is more complicated for other people. I do not claim Papal authority of "divine teaching" or whatever. And no one HAS to believe something just because I say it is true.

If I had to make a guess, I would naturally assume that HP is probably bad for everyone. However, I have a lot of respect for my Christian brothers and sisters who believe differently, and therefore am not comfortable on this particular issue (which isn't one of salvation) to say that they are all wrong, and I am right.

lp670sv · « **Reply #90 on:** December 30, 2011, 01:11:48 PM »

I will conclude my thoughts on this matter with "This is stupid" and "Thank God I'm agnostic and can make rational decisions for myself without having to bother a higher power who has more important things to attend to"

You may all minus-1 this post in to oblivion and I will not feel offended in the slightest.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #91 on:** December 30, 2011, 01:13:34 PM »

The word witch derives from the Old English nouns wicca /ˈwɪttʃɑ/ (masc.) "sorcerer, wizard" and wicce /ˈwɪttʃe/ (fem.) "sorceress, witch". The word's further origins in Proto-Germanic and Proto-Indo-European are unclear.

Then, further down the page:
The meaning "an adherent of Wicca" (male or female) is due to Gerald Gardner's purported "Witch Cult", and now appears as a separate meaning of the word also in mainstream dictionaries.

From Wikipedia

As far as I know, Harry Potter isn't wiccan, so you've been lost in ambiguity.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #92 on:** December 30, 2011, 01:34:06 PM »

Underwood, I respect you for handling the issue the way you have, and I believe that that is the best way to go about it. If you decided that Harry Potter is simply not for you, then I'm glad that you at least decided to do some research and pray about it, rather than just looking at everything at face value. The fact you've decided that that revelation is for you only and you don't feel the need to impose it on everyone else? Well that's just a bonus point.

Quote from: lp670sv on December 30, 2011, 01:11:48 PM

I will conclude my thoughts on this matter with "This is stupid" and "Thank God I'm agnostic and can make rational decisions for myself without having to bother a higher power who has more important things to attend to"

Alec, I like you as a person. I think you add a fresh (albeit controversial) prospective to the boards, and I think you do a good job debating issues without making your agnosticism a focal point of your arguments, thus preventing the arguments from being a complete waste of time. That said, your comments there are...rude.

[I appreciate the support, but let's avoid making this personal toward either side]

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #93 on:** December 30, 2011, 02:36:51 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on December 30, 2011, 01:11:48 PM

I will conclude my thoughts on this matter with "This is stupid" and "Thank God I'm agnostic and can make rational decisions for myself without having to bother a higher power who has more important things to attend to"

I have several thoughts here (including thinking it is funny that an agnostic is "thanking God"), but I think the message that I most want to communicate here is that one of the wonderful things about Christianity is that we believe in a God who cares about the tiny. The Bible talks about God taking care of the sparrows and the flowers, and how much MORE He cares about us humans.

God is my best friend, and He ENJOYS spending time with me. He LOVES it when I ask for His advice on something instead of just doing whatever I want. Similar to how you would probably like it if your son (or friend if you don't have a son) would ask your advice on something. I know that you are unsure about all the God-stuff, but I truly wish for you that someday you will be able to have the kind of relationship with the God of the universe that He deeply desires you to have.

lp670sv · « **Reply #94 on:** December 30, 2011, 04:23:47 PM »

The bottom line here is that you presented with a TON of evidence that there is nothing wrong with a WORK OF PURE FICTION and still chose to ban it. I can see not wanting little kids to read it from what you're saying, I don't agree with it but I can at least see where you are coming from, but the fact that you as an adult don't feel yourself capable of differentiating enough to read it yourself is kind of shocking to me. It also confuses me that you didn't draw the logic that since you are a christian and you believe that we are created by God, that the inborn ability of magic wouldn't come from God without it having to be stated openly. Why are all other inborn talents inherently from God but this one isn't? People are gifted with talents that they are then free to choose how to use be it for good or for evil, why is the inborn magical ability in harry potter any different in your mind?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #95 on:** December 30, 2011, 05:39:46 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on December 30, 2011, 04:23:47 PM

The bottom line here is that you presented with a TON of evidence that there is nothing wrong with a WORK OF PURE FICTION and still chose to ban it.

Just to be clear, I'm not banning anything here, unless you are talking about me not allowing my little kids to read these books or see these movies. This is just a personal decision on my part for me and my family. I'm not making any official decisions here on the forum.

Quote from: lp670sv on December 30, 2011, 04:23:47 PM

you as an adult don't feel yourself capable of differentiating enough to read it yourself is kind of shocking to me.

I'm completely capable of differentiating fact from fiction. That's not my problem. I just don't choose to entertain myself with a movie that has a witch for a hero. I could watch it, I just don't choose to.

Quote from: lp670sv on December 30, 2011, 04:23:47 PM

Why are all other inborn talents inherently from God but this one isn't?

People are naturally born with natural talents. The whole idea of magic is something that is supernatural. Therefore, by definition it is not something that people would be naturally born with.

Forever 12 · « **Reply #96 on:** December 30, 2011, 05:46:00 PM »

What is this "Harry Potter" that you speak of?

Red Wing · « **Reply #97 on:** December 30, 2011, 05:50:32 PM »

Quote from: Forever 12 on December 30, 2011, 05:46:00 PM

What is this "Harry Potter" that you speak of?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_potter

MattsterNinja · « **Reply #98 on:** December 30, 2011, 11:56:17 PM »

My parents wont let me read it still.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #99 on:** December 31, 2011, 12:15:49 AM »

Quote from: MattsterNinja on December 30, 2011, 11:56:17 PM

My parents wont let me read it still.

There's no shame in that. It was heavily frowned upon (though it wasn't expressly forbidden after I turned 16). I read them when I was 18, and with my assurance that they didn't turn me into a devil-worshipping heathen, my mother allowed my sister to read them at 12, and eventually read them herself. It's entirely understandable that some Christian parents prefer not to expose their children to it.

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Author Topic: Harry Potter (Read 15589 times)

Chronic Apathy

Rawrlolsauce!

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy