Author Topic: Harry Potter  (Read 15243 times)

Offline lp670sv

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2011, 11:05:49 PM »
+1
(evil - perhaps like magic in our world)

....magic in our world..like magicians....cause there is not such thing as magic.

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2011, 11:11:03 PM »
0
If Rowling created a book explaining the "behind the scenes" of magic and had them have different sources, how does it change anything?
I think it might change something for me.  I don't have a problem with people who God has given the gift of healing to working miracles.  Peter healing the lame man would seem like magic, but I would call it a miracle because the source of the power behind it was God.  However, I do have a problem with witchcraft and magic, which I believe has its power source to be from the devil.

So I'm thinking that perhaps the best way to figure out whether a book with magic in it is good or not is to ask a couple questions:

1 - Are the people in the book who use magic the "good-guys" or "bad-guys"?  If they are the "bad-guys" only, then the book is OK (at least from a magic perspective).

2 - If the people who use magic are the "good-guys", then is there a distinction between the sources of their power?  If the "good-guys" get their power from a good source, and the "bad-guys" get their power from a bad source, then the book is OK (at least from a magic perspective).

These seem to be much more objective questions than: Is there too much magic?  or Is there enough good stuff in the book to overlook the magic?

Offline lp670sv

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2011, 11:24:07 PM »
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In the Harry Potter Books the alignment of a person does not matter, there are good Witches and Wizards and Dark Witches and Wizards and the talent is something that they are born with and cannot be acquired later in life (though the Dark Witches and Wizards believe that Muggle born children who can use magic can do so because they stole it but this isn't true).

this interview with author JK Rowling is aslo extremely relevant to anyone who believes that Harry Potter is in any way evil
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 11:26:11 PM by lp670sv »

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2011, 11:40:49 PM »
+2
Having read Lord of the Rings three times, the Hobbit four times, and the Silmarillion twice, I can confidentially say that, for the most part, the magic in that series falls under the category of " same source, but it's how you use it." The Silmarillion details how Sauron may very well have been a good guy, except he was ultimately corrupted by Morgoth. Likewise, Gandalf and Saruman were roughly of the same order, but Saruman was corrupted by Sauron's power. There are exceptions to the rule, but in general, all the magic in the series comes from a neutral source. Narnia, meanwhile, draws a massive distinction between good and evil, mostly in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. I'm not even going to elaborate here, since odds are if someone hasn't read that series (or at least the book) they're probably not well-equipped to contribute to this debate anyway.

Harry Potter falls roughly between these two origins. What magic actually is or why some people can use it or can't use it is never touched on throughout the series. Wizards and the magical world are simply a fact of life, albeit one hidden from non-magical people. Rowling also never elaborates or mentions any kind of deity, and only vaguely says anything about the afterlife. Now that said, there are stricter lines drawn in the good/evil debate than what is found in Lord of the Rings. For the most part, in that series, whether magic is good or evil is determined entirely by intent. In Harry Potter, there are actual spells, known as the Unforgivable Curses, that are largely unjustifiable to use under any context, and are mostly seen being used exclusively by the bad guys (there are a handful of examples when Harry uses them, and this is largely to demonstrate his imperfection as a human and teenager). There are more extreme examples (dark magic) that are hinted at but never expounded on, which one exception (which I won't delve into, due to spoilers).

Here's the thing, a lot of super conservative Christians are entirely against Star Wars due to the Force. However, I'm willing to be that the vast majority of people here don't have any serious problem with it, at least because of the Force. It's almost identical to the magic found in Harry Potter: some people have the ability to use it, most people don't. Whether it's good or evil depends on how you use it, but it's inherently neutral, and can be used as either. My question then is, if Just Kidding Rowling had not used the term "magic" and instead made up a word and foregone the concept of wands, would anyone really have a problem with it? The magic the Bible is referring to was only possible through the works of Satan (or so I am told - I wouldn't swear to that), and was inherently evil. The magic in Harry Potter was essentially the same as any other ability. If I write a book about how fast I can run, and I call that ability magic, does that mean that that book shouldn't be read, just because I called it something?

Offline lp670sv

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2011, 11:48:39 PM »
0
Spoilers below.
Spoiler (hover to show)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 12:12:53 AM by lp670sv »

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2011, 12:11:41 AM »
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Please edit your post, I specifically avoided giving out plot details so things wouldn't be spoiled for anyone. Also, there's not much evidence to assume that Sectumsempra is dark magic.

Offline lp670sv

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2011, 12:14:44 AM »
0
Also Spoilers
Spoiler (hover to show)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 12:17:08 AM by lp670sv »

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2011, 12:45:57 AM »
+5

Offline stefferweffer

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2011, 09:44:58 AM »
+1
I too have wondered how the "magic" in the world of HP is so different from "the force" in Star Wars.  Those that have the ability are born with it, they go to school (or seek a master teacher) to hone their skills, and they can use those abilities for good or for evil.  In Harry Potter, all of the people that we are rooting for are being taught not only to use magic for good, but are also taught a mandatory class every year called "defense against the dark arts", which shows them the dangers of "the dark side" and how to defend themselves against evil witches and wizards.  Young Jedi are taught in similar fashion.  From time to time Harry and his friends are tempted to do some of the forbidden magic.  But then again so are Luke Skywalker, Anakin Skywalker, etc.

And for those LOTR fans, a Palantir and Galadriel's Mirror sure seem to me just like a gypsy's Crystal Ball. 

I'm thinking that a lot of where HP crosses the line for some Christians is that it is IN OUR TIME (or very close to it).  Narnia is a completely different world/land.  Middle Earth (LOTR), if it is supposed to represent our earth at all, is a very ancient earth, and the idea is that in the modern world all the magic is gone.  Star Wars is from "a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away".  But Harry Potter suggest that there are witches and wizards living among us right now, who go to secret schools, and otherwise live out their lives as "normal" people.  So perhaps it is the PERCEIVED idea from some parents that their child might want to be a witch or wizard in this world, because in the movies they are traveling all over 1950s (not sure on the time frame) England?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 10:12:31 AM by stefferweffer »

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #59 on: December 25, 2011, 01:28:53 PM »
+1
Other than it being modern day, not 1950's, I think you've hit upon something. It would be utterly ridiculous for a kid to think he could really be a Wizard in Narnia or Middle-earth or a Jedi--that is, REALLY think it--but perhaps not so ridiculous to think he could be a Wizard like those in Harry Potter. This makes it more threatening to parents who would rather ban something that requires an extra measure of guidance rather than give the extra measure of guidance.

I still maintain that the original and fullest source of the taboo is the fact that it's taboo. LotR was rejected by the Churchiness establishment when it first came out, and took some time for people to get over the knee-jerk reaction. In the same way, I don't think HP has been around long enough for the general public to get over their initial opposition, and most people that have a problem with it do so because they think they're supposed to have a problem with it.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #60 on: December 25, 2011, 01:38:51 PM »
0
I still maintain that the original and fullest source of the taboo is the fact that it's taboo. LotR was rejected by the Churchiness establishment when it first came out, and took some time for people to get over the knee-jerk reaction. In the same way, I don't think HP has been around long enough for the general public to get over their initial opposition, and most people that have a problem with it do so because they think they're supposed to have a problem with it.

Don't mistake a small group of Christians for the general population. Harry Potter is one of (I believe it's the highest, but I can't find a source of that) the best selling entertainment franchises of all time, and it's only been around for just over a decade. For every person who's opposed to the series, there are 10 people who are rabid fans.

Offline The Warrior

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #61 on: December 25, 2011, 02:32:15 PM »
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I've Heard that some of the spells in the books are actual Wiccan/Satanic Spells... is this True?
Wanderer of the Web.

Offline lp670sv

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #62 on: December 25, 2011, 02:33:54 PM »
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I've Heard that some of the spells in the books are actual Wiccan/Satanic Spells... is this True?

All of the spells in the books are Latin forms of whatever they are supposed to do, so since they are an actual language that was used for a very long time and was prevalent in the same region that Wicca began it's possible there is some (unintentional) overlap.

Offline The Warrior

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #63 on: December 25, 2011, 02:37:07 PM »
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I've Heard that some of the spells in the books are actual Wiccan/Satanic Spells... is this True?

All of the spells in the books are Latin forms of whatever they are supposed to do, so since they are an actual language that was used for a very long time and was prevalent in the same region that Wicca began it's possible there is some (unintentional) overlap.
so thats a ..No?
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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #64 on: December 25, 2011, 02:45:31 PM »
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Most of it's just poorly translated Latin. Anyone who says they're real Wiccan and/or Satanic words is a fear-mongering fool.

Offline lp670sv

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #65 on: December 25, 2011, 03:13:37 PM »
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Most of it's just poorly translated Latin. Anyone who says they're real Wiccan and/or Satanic words is a fear-mongering fool.
This.

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #66 on: December 25, 2011, 05:46:17 PM »
0
Most of it's just poorly translated Latin. Anyone who says they're real Wiccan and/or Satanic words is a fear-mongering fool.
Latin = Roman Empire
666 = (possible) Reference to a Roman Emperor
The Roman Emperor was supposed to be a demigod
Therefore:
666 = Latin of a false God
Latin, the language of the Beast, is used in Harry Potter.
Therefore:
Harry Potter = Evil.

QED.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #67 on: December 25, 2011, 07:24:51 PM »
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There is one spell that is a derivative of a "real" occult spell: Avada Kedavra (derivative of Abrakadabra). It is also the only spell in the book that is used exclusively by evil wizards and is never even attempted by a good one.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline stefferweffer

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #68 on: December 25, 2011, 10:12:28 PM »
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There is one spell that is a derivative of a "real" occult spell: Avada Kedavra (derivative of Abrakadabra). It is also the only spell in the book that is used exclusively by evil wizards and is never even attempted by a good one.
Umm, Snepe?

Offline lp670sv

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #69 on: December 25, 2011, 10:25:33 PM »
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Aurors were also authorized to use the curse against the death eaters in the same way that police are authorized to use deadly force.

Also *Snape  8)

Offline katedid

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #70 on: December 26, 2011, 01:32:33 AM »
+2
I've Heard that some of the spells in the books are actual Wiccan/Satanic Spells... is this True?

I actually did a speech for a class involving the Christian response to HP. I looked up a lot of literature on Wiccan's in the process and it would seem that the general population of hardcore practicing "real" witches really  don't like HP. They either laugh off people trying to compare the two or are deeply offended by HP because it makes people not take them seriously.

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2011, 01:03:25 PM »
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Having read Lord of the Rings three times, the Hobbit four times, and the Silmarillion twice, I can confidentially say that, for the most part, the magic in that series falls under the category of " same source, but it's how you use it."

Narnia, meanwhile, draws a massive distinction between good and evil, mostly in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

Harry Potter falls roughly between these two origins...whether magic is good or evil is determined entirely by intent.

...Star Wars ...Force. It's almost identical to the magic found in Harry Potter: some people have the ability to use it, most people don't. Whether it's good or evil depends on how you use it, but it's inherently neutral, and can be used as either.
This is unfortunate for me.  Based on the criteria from my last post, I would be forced to conclude that Narnia is appropriate for my kids, but that LotR, Star Wars, and HP are not.  However, I really like LotR and Star Wars, and have never felt convicted about those series.  So now I have to determine whether I need a different criteria or need to just be consistent despite my personal preferences.

It would be utterly ridiculous for a kid to think he could really be a Wizard in Narnia or Middle-earth or a Jedi--that is, REALLY think it--but perhaps not so ridiculous to think he could be a Wizard like those in Harry Potter.
So if I'm looking for a 3rd criteria to add, it could be something along the lines of whether the magic was presented in a context that would be likely for a child to attempt to emulate.  This does deal with the problem of not wanting to lead others into sin.  But it doesn't really deal with the problem of finding entertainment from a worldview that is contrary to what the Bible teaches.  However that brings up other issues...like whether we should be entertained by the "good guy" getting revenge on the "bad guy" in a movie.

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2011, 01:36:24 PM »
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The first part of this post (in the spoiler tags) has massive spoilers for the end of the series. Read at your own risk:

Spoiler (hover to show)

I'm glad that you're at least shooting for consistency, Mark. If you decide that Harry Potter is bad, then that is of course your decision. What bothers me is when people decide to not read the series based on ignorance or just wrong information. It's incredibly easy for rumors to get spread about the type of content the series does or does not have, and it's frustrating to hear questions like, "Does Harry Potter use real Satanic words," because that shows that there's a group of people who actually believe that, because someone thought it would be a good idea to make that garbage up. Therefore, it's very gratifying to see you trying to get more information on the series from fellow Christians whom you trust, rather than listen to propaganda (from either side).

Specifically regarding what you said in the last part of your post though, ("it could be something along the lines of whether the magic was presented in a context that would be likely for a child to attempt to emulate.") I think this is a subject that comes down to parental responsibility. Certain age groups shouldn't be reading the series to begin with, due to some violent content and minor language (along with some slightly heavier themes, but nothing inappropriate - just deep), and so if you're worried about your kids thinking the series is real, well then they're probably too young for it to begin with. My little sister is 12 and finished reading the series over the summer, and before she was allowed to read them, it was made extremely clear to her that it was fiction. If you're unsure about the series, perhaps you would be willing to read the first book or two? They'll give you a very clear look at whether the content is going to justify your convictions or not, especially in regards to the difference between Star Wars (which I could debate for hours on the morality of the Jedi) and Lord of the Rings (which is more violent, and is, for all intents and purposes, more Satanic, when you consider that he has his own god and group of deities for the series). If doing that seems a bit much, then there's obviously the "pray and read your Bible" path. If you do that and your convictions hold, there's your answer. However, I'd encourage you to do that about the other series brought up in this topic. =)

Offline stefferweffer

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2011, 01:41:45 PM »
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Am I right in assuming that every Christian opposed to Harry Potter and "magic" in general believes that the Devil and Demons are actually performing "false miracles" and magic today?  Frankly I never realized this mindset until recently, which is why I ask.  If this is how someone feels, then I can definitely see how someone would be so opposed to "magic", because they think the devil and his demons are performing real magic today.

Not trying to derail this thread, but this might help explain some of our differences.  I always viewed "magic" in the bible that was performed by evil persons to be one of two things:  1) God choosing to give that person that ability (usually temporarily) to fulfill His larger purpose (i.e Pharaoh's magicians or the witch at Endor), or 2) Magic "tricks", which were basically illusion or sleight of hand, used to deceive people for the performer's own purposes (i.e. Simon or Elymas).  Thus the "false signs" and "lying wonders" are called "false and lying" because they are not actual signs and wonders at all - but merely deceiving tricks used to get people to follow them.  And this is why I believe Simon was so impressed with the Holy Spirit, because it was REAL.  Don't get me wrong - I have no doubt that the devil and his demons used evil men's worship of false Gods to their own ends, and that many of those sorcerors believed that they were serving their false gods, but I also believe that their "sorcerors" were master performers who knew how to deceive their audience to make them think that they could do real magic.

But I can't think of an example of the devil or demons giving someone the ability to perform a true miracle.  And because I feel this way about "secular magic", you may understand better why I treat "magic" in fictional literature so casually.

I guess a lot of the reason that I feel this way is because IF the devil can allow his followers to do signs/miracles just as God did with His followers (and some, not me, would say still does), then there really becomes no way to know the difference.  When Paul writes about the "signs of an apostle" being shown among his audience, how do we know those were signs of an apostle and not signs of demons?  Miracles existed for the purpose of confirming the word in an age where people did not know what the truth was.  If a Christian arrived and performed a miracle, then you knew that THEY had the truth.  Think of Elijah's challenge to the prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel as an example of this.  Give the devil that same ability and people still have no idea where to turn. 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 03:13:32 PM by stefferweffer »

Offline lp670sv

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Re: Harry Potter
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2011, 01:52:10 PM »
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The following adds to Chronic's post and also contains spoiler.

Spoiler (hover to show)

 


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