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So the topic of sanctification has come up over and over and over at the school I am currently attending.

I will preface everything here by saying I am unsure of where I stand on the issue.


First off, I want to believe in the sanctifying power of Jesus. I want to believe that in a moment God can purify a saved person and bring to a place that they no longer willfully sin. However, if a person still sins by omission doesn't that mean they havn't been entirely made Holy?

I know their are definitions of sin that default to Calvin and Wesley. Calvin saying that sin is missing the mark or not being perfect. While Wesley states that sin is a willful act against God's plan for us. 

If entire sanctification is possible then doesn't that mean that at birth Jesus was entirely sanctified?  If so doesn't that strip power from the cross. If any us were born "entirely sanctified" then any of us could have lived a perfect life and died on the cross for the sins of everyone else right?

The other issue I find is that from the pulpit I hear that God can sanctify us here and now. If that is the case then when I ask The Lord to sanctify me shouldn't it happen because I am praying in God's will right?  I don't want to be sanctified for my glory I just don't want to sin anymore. I want to be pleasing in the eyes of God.

In the classroom and in private conversations with professors they say that sanctification is a process marked by special moments with God in our lives.  If that is the case then why do they preach something different from the pulpit?

The whole thing is difficult all I know is I want to live a righteous life before my God.

Thanks in advance for all input and I will preface that any questions or concerns I may ask or post in response to this are not meant to attack, be critical or offensive, I am only aiming to find truth. I am asking seeking and knocking and I cling to the promise that Jesus will answer.

Hebrews 10:14 states "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."  Jesus put our sin nature to death by going to the cross, but it does not mean we are not capable of sinning.  Before you were saved, you were capable of doing righteous things; in the same vein, as a Saint, you are still capable of doing sinful things.  The difference is that before salvation we cannot resist doing sinful things, after salvation, through the Holy Spirit, we should not be able to resist doing righteous things.  What we do does not define our spiritual state....Jesus' work on the Cross does.

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In the classroom and in private conversations with professors they say that sanctification is a process marked by special moments with God in our lives.  If that is the case then why do they preach something different from the pulpit?

The reason for this that I've found boils down more to American Church politics than theology. I believe everything in the Bible points to the former as being the mode. After all, if Paul wasn't entirely sanctified, who should be? However, the latter is not outside God's ability and therefore possible. But we have a lot of "church shopping" power in America, and the prevailing thought is that if you preach anything resembling Calvinism you'll have a congregation of one. What I've seen mostly is that sanctification is broadcast en masse, whereas private conversations reveal what is believed to be more likely.

Hmmm, I struggle with being a part of a community that values their political role to protect numbers over proclaiming the truth revealed in scripture.  If this is the case I find it both aggravating and sad.  If the "good news" isn't enough to keep people coming back to a church are we as a theological branch in the wrong in our presentation? 

This seems to hold weight with me. It feels accurate to my experience and would make sense. (I know I am not the measuring stick for truth just gut reaction) "We can't upset the traditionalists or the money won't come in." 

Would Wesley agree with the message being delivered from the pulpit or with the message I hear in private?

If what you're asking is whether God making us perfect on earth would bring His greatest glory, I don't think I agree.  God is glorified when we testify about what He has done in our lives, and to spread the message of salvation.  It is hard enough for others to accept this truth without trying to tell others that God has made us perfect, sinless beings.  I think God's glory is made evident when we humbly present the message that God can make sinful creatures "righteous" rather than perfect (in the sinless sense).

Maynid and red

I don't mean to infer that we dont have free will in any way. I don't believe anyone would say that sanctification is forced onto anyone.

If its our job to honor God and spread the gospel wouldn't entire sanctification provide the best opportunity to do so?

If its our job to honor God and spread the gospel wouldn't entire sanctification provide the best opportunity to do so?

If Christ completely sanctified us in our sinful, imperfect bodies while we remain on earth then we would have no more need for a Savior. As we continue to wage war on sin Jesus continues to make intercession on our behalf to the Father and the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. Paul talks about this in Romans chapter 7 about how we continue to sin even when we know what the right things to do are. "So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.  For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God's law.  But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.  What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body?" (Romans 7:21-24 HCSB)

Only when we are united with God in heaven will we be sinless.

I would also posit, similar to Maynid, that our imperfection gives us greater opportunities to give God glory rather than if we were perfect. Paul also writes on this in 2 Cor in regards to his "thorn in the flesh" which he pleaded with God that it would be removed. God's response? "But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Therefore, I will most gladly boast all the more about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may reside in me." (2 Corinthians 12:9 HCSB). Similarly God's power is shown most strongly through our weakness and inability to live as we ought as His continual grace is bestowed on us.

Kirk

Prof thanks for your input on this for sure.  I totally agree about salvation and sanctification being unrelated.  Do you think there has ever been a person in history whom God allowed and aided to come to a point of entire sanctification and if so who?  I want to know God more, I want this relationship to grow, I want to do as Jesus commands us in the sermon on the mount and to be Holy as our Father is Holy.  This is a battle and it seems, in my life anyways, a process.

Allow me to restate a question from the OP if you don't mind Prof.  If entire sanctification is possible then wasn't Jesus entirely sanctified at birth?  If he was, doesn't that devalue the cross?  Could you or I have lived a perfect life if we were born entirely sanctified and then died for the sins of all humankind? 

One more question that seems to arise, if Wesley's definition of sin is correct then is it safe to say that could have Jesus committed sins of omission or mistakes?

Do you think there has ever been a person in history whom God allowed and aided to come to a point of entire sanctification and if so who?

I do believe that God has done this work in many people.  There are several elder members of my church who have testified to God doing this in their lives, and I believe them.  I don't talk about it much, because it comes across as boasting, but I believe that God has also worked in my own life in this way.

If entire sanctification is possible then wasn't Jesus entirely sanctified at birth?

I do NOT believe that Jesus was entirely sanctified at birth because the Bible says that He was tempted in the same way that we all are tempted.  Being tempted without having the natural tendency to sin would NOT be the same as being tempted WITH that natural tendency.  And the orthodox Christian belief is that Jesus was FULLY human, which seems to me would also have to include the fallen nature.  This makes it all the more amazing that Jesus NEVER gave into to ANY temptation despite that natural tendency.

Could you or I have lived a perfect life if we were born entirely sanctified and then died for the sins of all humankind?

This is a question of theory vs. reality.  I believe in free will, which means that we actually do have a choice whether to sin or not.  If this is true of each decision, then "in theory" it would be possible for a person to ALWAYS choose the right decision, and therefore never sin.  To believe otherwise requires one to believe that there was at least one decision where they absolutely were forced to choose to sin, and I don't think that fits with my understanding of scripture or of God Himself.  However, this "theory" really doesn't matter too much because the "reality" is that all of us HAVE chosen to sin at some point in our lives.  The Bible even says that everyone has sinned.  Therefore, we all need the salvation of Jesus in "reality".

One more question that seems to arise, if Wesley's definition of sin is correct then is it safe to say that could have Jesus committed sins of omission or mistakes?

Again, Jesus was FULLY human.  Therefore, I am sure that there were times when Jesus made mistakes.  I'm sure there were times when he was walking along, and being distracted by something, tripped over his own feet and fell down.  He also probably slipped up occasionally and mispronounced a word or two as he spent so much time speaking.  As for moral mistakes or accidental sins (which Wesley wouldn't even define as sin necessarily), I don't actually have a firm view on that.  I would tend to believe that Jesus never sinned even accidentally, but this doesn't make a lot of sense.  What baby has never once behaved selfishly and cried for food when it wasn't very convenient for its mother?

The key to answering those questions is original sin. I'm not sure what Methodists believe about that subject.

The basic idea is that when Adam ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden, that it caused the very nature of humanity to fall to a state where all people since then are born with a natural tendency to sin.  This "sinful nature" is independent from specific sins that people may commit.

Agreed, Red.  While Jesus was fully human, He was also fully God, and so sin could not exist in him.  And, really, why couldn't God create His son without quirk, distraction, or selfish want?  As far as being tempted, I wonder if that does not so much relate to an internal state of *feeling* tempted, but rather the actions of others tempting Him.  In any case, the Bible says clearly that despite temptation, He did not sin, regardless of how anyone defines it.

Agreed, Red.  While Jesus was fully human, He was also fully God, and so sin could not exist in him.  And, really, why couldn't God create His son without quirk, distraction, or selfish want?  As far as being tempted, I wonder if that does not so much relate to an internal state of *feeling* tempted, but rather the actions of others tempting Him.  In any case, the Bible says clearly that despite temptation, He did not sin, regardless of how anyone defines it.

The temptation is equated to what is "common to man". Therefore I think it would be the same temptation you and I  face.

Prof U I have a couple questions pertaining to what you said and I don't take your answer as prideful at all but rather it excites me.  I can ask them here but if you prefer I could pm them to you so you could answer more fully.

I would say if I could ask here in the safety of a loving Christian community I would prefer that so other could offer opinions. However, I don't want a misunderstanding to be made about you in any way.

I am willing to answer your questions here as long as everyone understands that I give God all the credit for the work that He has done in my life.  I have sinned in my past just like everyone else, and I need Christ's salvation as much as anyone.

I also want to make it clear that I fully respect my Christian brothers and sisters who have studied the Bible and come to a different conclusion regarding whether this experience is even possible before death (or for that matter whether people even truly have Free Will).  I do NOT want this discussion to result in division among the family of God.  Both the Calvinist and Wesleyan perspectives are compatible with orthodox Christian belief.  We should primarily focus on the common ground within our various branches of Christianity.

So would say that the desires of the flesh have left you completely or is there still a battle with the sin nature?

I wish I had a simple answer to this question, but I think my best way to describe it is that there have been long periods of time (sometimes years?) where this has been true, but that it is not always true.  I actually hadn't really thought about this subject in a while before this thread came up, and as I've been thinking about it God has convicted me of an area of my life where my sin nature has seemed to have returned just in the last 6 months.  Thankfully I have not given into temptation in that area in the last month or so, but I have to admit that the desire has been there at times, and that alone is disturbing to me.  It means that I need to again die to self and allow Christ to fully live through me.  I am thankful for this thread bringing this to my attention, and have been praying for God to change my heart again to make if fully His again.

Is there something more I can do to pursue sanctification?

Unfortunately here I have bad news.  I do NOT know any formulas for achieving Entire Sanctification.  I have a really close friend who was vigorously pursuing it at the same time as my experience and who never felt like he achieved it.  Meanwhile, I was NOT really pursuing it and really felt like I did.  It still does not seem fair to me, and I strongly regret that my friend eventually fell away from being a Christian at all, partly due to his frustration at never getting the level of experience with God that he desired.

My suggestion would be to NOT strive for this experience in itself, but rather to simply strive to deepen your relationship with God Himself.  Continue learning about Him through studying His Word, prayer, and fellowship with other believers.  Continue sharing with him from your most inward thoughts and feelings.  Continue trying to make Him happy by living according to His will.  Listen to His voice in your life and follow it wherever it leads (assuming of course that it aligns with scripture).  If you are doing all these things, and God thinks it is best for this to happen to you, then He'll present the opportunity.

But don't think that it will be this wonderful experience either.  For me it was pretty traumatic really.  However I wouldn't trade it for the world

I think this is a great example of over complicating truth. It's not really anyone's fault it just happens. Truth is you always struggle with sin somewhere even just as a temptation, and you sin way more than you realize because we don't have a full capacity to understand what is and is not sin. But, there's a pretty fullproof plan to head towards eventual entire sanctification and its called the gospel.

I agree with your assessment but I am
Wrestling with these thing in order to understand my denomination better as well as formulating my own beliefs and for me questioning is a huge way in which I learn and grow. 

My man objective is to stop sinning to the best of my ability and I long to be as righteous as possible, not to pat myself on the back but rather to honor God with my life and to depopulate hell.