Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote from: crustpope on October 12, 2009, 03:12:07 PM

You know, why dont you give out a fake one you can remember like 1-1-11 or 2-2-22  or something like that. for you it could be 7-7-77 since 7 was your jersey number.

This discussion has been done before, but I continue to point out that it is not good to lie about information like this.  Take your choice between giving your real birthday and being able to forget your password, or don't give your birthday and don't forget you password.  But don't lie about something just so that you can access a yahoo account for a pretend football league.  Your integrity should be worth more than that.

I choose not to give real information about myself over the internet.  Between hackers and identity thieves, I choose to keep as little of my information on the "grid" as possible.  All these accounts want your personal info...I refuse to give it, but the boxes still have to be filled out.  I don't see it as an integrity issue trying to keep my identity as safe as possible.

A really good webpage talking about integrity can be found here.

Matt, you are basically justifying this lack of integrity with temptation #4 from that article.

A really good webpage talking about integrity can be found here.

Matt, you are basically justifying this lack of integrity with temptation #4 from that article.

I found the article a good read, and I agree with it.  However, though you may disagree with me...I don't see protecting my identity as an issue of integrity.  I think it is wise to withhold info that others do not need.  

Do I pay for it?  Sure.  Hence, I lost my yahoo account.  However, that is not a big loss for me once this football season is over.  In the meantime, my identity is still secure as far as I can help it.  

I don't think it's wrong to give a false number. They don't need my account information.

Is that a lie? Truth: "a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth." I do not believe that there is any wrong intent in this. And are you saying that lying is always wrong? What about 'The Hiding Place?'

I know these two things are on WAY different scales of seriousness, but still, I don't hold an absolute stance on 'never lie.'

So really if you were in that scenario you would have told the truth?

And yes, her sister did say that, but Cory Ten Boom did lie at one point.

Matt, you are basically justifying this lack of integrity with temptation #4 from that article.

Not really.  My argument is not that I "deserve" to play fantasy football, but that my giving them false information is the "little guys" way of telling the "Big guy" to back off of information that they dont really need.  They only demand it because they can get away with asking it because millions of Americans are not as careful about giving out that information.

You can say, "well if you believe it to be unjust, then why participate in an activity just to give false information.  That puts you in a place where you are lying"  True it does, but what message are you sending if you follow a policy of disengagement?  If 1000 peope want to play fantasy football and 100 of them fail to do so because they dont want to give the correct information, all the corporation sees is that they have 900 people who are 100% compliant and that there is no real problem in demanding this information for ANYTHING including things you may need to survive later on.  True yahoo doesn't have anything that people need to survive, but what about grocery stores? With these loyalty cards they have already started to encroach on private information.  How much longer until they dont sell you groceries unless you give them private information?  Perhaps you can go to a different store, but soon everything within an industry will begin to use these practices if they can gain a financial edge.

The only way to change this is to actively resist these encroachments.  If in my previous example 1000 people want to play fantasy football and the 100 that are leery of giving away private information give false information, then the company will notice that about 10% of the participants information doesn't check out. (emails come back unanswered or unsendable, etc)  This will tell them that there is some problem with the continued encroachment on our private information.

My argument of non-violent resistance is more similar to the Student sit ins in the South during the Civil Rights movement than the #4 on your list Mark.

That may not be why Jonathan doing what he was doing, but that is how I would justify my actions if I were Jonathan.  Thant and the fact that I needed to protect my family from the dangers of Identity theft.

WOW guys...just WOW; I can't believe this discussion is still going on. Matt, you're a sinner, Mark, so are you. Hey, so am I! Thank God we are redeemed by God's grace and mercy through Jesus Christ...

So how about those Bears?!?

Matt, you're a sinner, Mark, so are you. Hey, so am I! Thank God we are redeemed by God's grace and mercy through Jesus Christ...

I agree with you Travis, we were all sinners and are only redeemed thanks to God.

I should also point out that Matt (CrustPope), Jon (Soul Seeker), and Travis (uthminister) are 3 of my closest friends in Redemption.  Matt, Jon, and I all go back over 10 years since we were in college together.  I have tons of respect for both of them, and highly value their Christian testimony and their ministry for God.  Just because we disagree about this issue doesn't change any of that.

Quote from: lightningninja on October 13, 2009, 11:43:47 PM

So really if you were in that scenario you would have told the truth?

To do any other would be to not trust God and to sin.

I dissagree.  I believe that it is not only moraly acceptable to lie to people who intend harm to others, but that it is a moral mandate that you should do so.  If we are to take the holocaust scenario, when the Germans come, I feel that I am morally obligated to lie to the Germans because I know that if I betray the Jews I have hidden in my house, I am complicit in murder.  There are times when Honesty is a sin.

You may think this leads to moral relativity, but I would disagree.  There are numerous commands where God asks us to care for the weak and the oppressed and to "Love our Neighbor as ourself"  Furthermore God states that his laws are higher than mans laws so I see no contradiction in lying to represenative of a corrupt human governemnt who wants to kill my friend with no moral or just cause.  In fact I believe I am doing Gods work when I do lie to the representative of the corrupt human government. 

Let this debate begin!

You may think this leads to moral relativity...

Yes I do.  Lying is wrong, and we shouldn't do something wrong just to keep someone else from doing something wrong.

This line of reasoning was actually demonstrated pretty well in Batman: The Dark Knight.  The Joker told everyone that if they killed one guy, that he would not kill hundreds by blowing up a hospital.  Using the same reasoning that you just used, you would say that it would be a "sin" to NOT kill that one guy because then you would be complicit in the murder of hundreds of people in the hospital.

They DONT think you are crazy and find the Jews and then arrest you as well as your family and put you all to death.

I'll trust God to handle it.  He tells me in His Word to be honest.  I'll be honest.  Either God will save us or He won't (just like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego told Nebby).  I trust that He has a plan, and I'm going to follow God's commands and trust the outcome to Him.

You are still using the argument that it is ok to do something wrong to stop someone else from doing something wrong.  Do you see that?