Author Topic: Discussion on false information (Read 32197 times)

STAMP · « **Reply #25 on:** October 15, 2009, 10:59:03 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on October 15, 2009, 10:44:24 AM

Vir est cado eatenus.

The only thing I'm afraid of eatenus is a shark!

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #26 on:** October 15, 2009, 11:27:20 AM »

I'm actually not positive that's the word I wanted to use, but I don't know the word in Latin, nor do I have a English-Latin dictionary on me, so I had to rely on google translation.

New Raven BR · « **Reply #27 on:** October 15, 2009, 01:30:05 PM »

XD stamp

Colin Michael · « **Reply #28 on:** October 15, 2009, 01:46:32 PM »

I thought this thread was going to be about FOX news.

I believe that virtuous lying is okay.

Kantian ethics are illogical and non-pragmatic.

Tracer Burnout · « **Reply #29 on:** October 15, 2009, 02:16:11 PM »

Quote from: uthminister [BR] on October 14, 2009, 01:05:26 PM

WOW guys...just WOW; I can't believe this discussion is still going on. Matt, you're a sinner, Mark, so are you. Hey, so am I! Thank God we are redeemed by God's grace and mercy through Jesus Christ...

So how about those Bears?!?

Bears......pish posh. Go Broncos!!!!

New Raven BR · « **Reply #30 on:** October 15, 2009, 02:17:28 PM »

7 words

GO RAVENS!!!
GO TITANS!!!!
AND GO SAINTS!!!

Tracer Burnout · « **Reply #31 on:** October 15, 2009, 02:19:49 PM »

Quote from: New Raven BR on October 15, 2009, 02:17:28 PM

7 words

GO RAVENS!!!
GO TITANS!!!!
AND GO SAINTS!!!

Who?
Who?
and What?

New Raven BR · « **Reply #32 on:** October 15, 2009, 02:32:36 PM »

Baltimore Ravens
Tennessee Titans
New Orleans Sants
football

STAMP · « **Reply #33 on:** October 15, 2009, 02:33:52 PM »

Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him. - Mark 12:17

Tracer Burnout · « **Reply #34 on:** October 15, 2009, 02:37:57 PM »

Quote from: New Raven BR on October 15, 2009, 02:32:36 PM

Baltimore Ravens
Tennessee Titans
New Orleans Sants
football

Oh. I'm sorry....i thought we were discussing real football teams....like the broncos and the bears. Alright I'll give you the saints, but only cause I like Drew Brees. haha...

Sorry Prof. I know we are off topic, but when someone brings up football I gotta speak

New Raven BR · « **Reply #35 on:** October 15, 2009, 02:40:13 PM »

the ravens abnd titans are real football teams.
the titans have just had a bad start that's been rolling for a few weeks and the ravens having a better run and i'd expect the titans to beat the pats cause the pats barely beat the bills which says to me we have a chance against the pats and tom brady so the bills aren't a REAL football team

Korunks · « **Reply #36 on:** October 15, 2009, 02:50:44 PM »

Quote

cause the pats barely beat the bills

you calling my team weak? oh wait they are

carry on

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #37 on:** October 15, 2009, 02:56:40 PM »

Quote from: Tracer Burnout on October 15, 2009, 02:37:57 PM

Sorry Prof. I know we are off topic, but when someone brings up football I gotta speak

It's understandable, considering that this discussion actually started as an "off topic" conversation in a thread that was actually supposed to be about football. So this is actually kinda funny to me.

Clarinetguy097 · « **Reply #38 on:** October 15, 2009, 05:19:32 PM »

St. Louis Rams.

Lawfuldog · « **Reply #39 on:** October 15, 2009, 05:52:59 PM »

Dallas Cowboys.

Oh wait... I forgot we still have Romo.

But how about that Miles Austin?!?!

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #40 on:** October 15, 2009, 06:27:24 PM »

Bringing this back on track, I have something to add:

With putting false information in a form like this, are you really lying to someone, or are you simply lying to the machine that holds the database of user information. It's not like a person specificially asked you in a conversation what your phone number is... I doubt that most forms like that are even READ by anyone.

So my stand is, you are simply putting "incorrect data" into a machine's database. If you were to give false info to a person who is standing right infront of you, then yes I would consider that lying.

drb1200 · « **Reply #41 on:** October 15, 2009, 09:44:16 PM »

Go Titans. 'Nuff said.

crustpope · « **Reply #42 on:** October 15, 2009, 10:29:24 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on October 15, 2009, 09:54:10 AM

Quote from: crustpope on October 15, 2009, 09:06:32 AM
They DONT think you are crazy and find the Jews and then arrest you as well as your family and put you all to death.
I'll trust God to handle it. He tells me in His Word to be honest. I'll be honest. Either God will save us or He won't (just like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego told Nebby). I trust that He has a plan, and I'm going to follow God's commands and trust the outcome to Him.

You are still using the argument that it is ok to do something wrong to stop someone else from doing something wrong. Do you see that?

I can see where you would THINK that, but what I am saying is that to lie to protect someone else from mortal Danger is not a sin, but a virtue. So I am not doing something wrong to stop someone else from doing something wrong.

If you saw someone with a Gun and you believed that they were going to use it to Kill someone else, would you try to take the Gun? wouldnt that be stealing? yet it would be the right thing to do. I someone came to my house and intended to kill those I have protected and I KNEW they intended harm to those I had protected and I Lie to them, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT TO BE A SIN. I am not yelling, I am just making sure you understand what I am saying.

Lying to protect others such as those in the Holocost situation, is similar to taking a gun from someone who intends harm. you are preventing them from Killing others and that is the virtuous act. To stand by and let it happen when you could have stopped it is the SIN.

And your Rack Shak and benny example does not work because they were dealing with their own life. They were not protecting other people. When it is y our life to give away, you can trust God all you want, but when otherrs depend upon you, I believe the standing order is to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

lightningninja · « **Reply #43 on:** October 15, 2009, 10:55:24 PM »

Prof, one reason I might be disagreeing with you (the same reason I had this discussion and disagreed with someone else), is that it seems like you believe in a predestination Christianity. Do you believe that? So that whatever you do it's God's plan and you can't change it?

Because although I believe that we can't change God's plan... I do believe that God makes his plan around our choices. I think that it's up to YOU to save the Jews or not. Can you pray to God to give you wisdom, and to make a decision? Yes. But if I did what Crustpope said and told where the Jews were and said the truth... I would hold my self responsible for my death.

So you really would straight up tell the Nazis where they were? And other people didn't "lie," but they did mislead. Such as Cory Ten Boom's sister. I believe that's the same as lying. If they ask you if you are hiding Jews, and you say, I am not hiding Jews in my house, because they're aren't in your house, they are underground or something. I believe that's the same as lying. You are saying something that is perposfully misleading. I think that's what it comes down to. What is your goal. Are you purposefully misleading someone or "lying" to save a life?

And as for moral relativism... absolutely. That's what we do every day. Do we enter war and kill to save our freedom? Do we torture to get information and protect our nation? I believe the higher ideal should always come first. In the case of the nazis and Cory, she chose life over honesty. I think that's the right choice.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #44 on:** October 15, 2009, 10:59:15 PM »

Quote from: crustpope on October 15, 2009, 10:29:24 PM

If you saw someone with a Gun and you believed that they were going to use it to Kill someone else, would you try to take the Gun?

The Professor would not take the gun. He would stick a flower in the barrel.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #45 on:** October 15, 2009, 11:16:59 PM »

Quote from: crustpope on October 15, 2009, 10:29:24 PM

I can see where you would THINK that, but what I am saying is that to lie to protect someone else from mortal Danger is not a sin, but a virtue. So I am not doing something wrong to stop someone else from doing something wrong.

I think we understand each other then. Fair enough, but you should realize that your position does lead to moral relativism (maybe not in you, but in other people).

Quote from: crustpope on October 15, 2009, 10:29:24 PM

When it is y our life to give away, you can trust God all you want, but when otherrs depend upon you, I believe the standing order is to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

I disagree with this. I think that we should trust God for our own lives and for the lives of others. When the entire army of Israel was depending on Gideon to lead them to victory, did he trust in God's plan, or did he trust in what seemed smart to him. Gideon sent thousands of soldiers away to fight with only 300 against an overwhelming force. Was he throwing their lives away and doing something wrong? Of course not, he was trusting their lives in God's hands. "But God told him to do that" you might say. "And God told us to NOT lie" I reply.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #46 on:** October 15, 2009, 11:21:49 PM »

That's very well stated Prof.

No matter how you slice it, you are rationalizing a direct command. When it says do not lie, I feel safe saying God did not mean "Don't lie, except to protect someone from harm, or when you don't like your wife's dress, or when you think you are in danger". It says don't lie. That's a pretty clear line.

Just like it doesn't say "Honor the Sabbath, except when your really tired."

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #47 on:** October 15, 2009, 11:22:59 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on October 15, 2009, 06:27:24 PM

With putting false information in a form like this, are you really lying to someone, or are you simply lying to the machine

This was also discussed in the thread on this topic from long ago. I was going to link to it, but it was lost in the purge. The conclusion of people who knew about this sort of stuff (not me) was that there are people who actually do see this information.

Quote from: lightningninja on October 15, 2009, 10:55:24 PM

Prof...it seems like you believe in a predestination Christianity. Do you believe that?

Actually I am a big proponent of free will, but I'll take it as a compliment that I haven't gotten into these debates enough that you had to ask

Quote from: lightningninja on October 15, 2009, 10:55:24 PM

If they ask you if you are hiding Jews, and you say, I am not hiding Jews in my house, because they're aren't in your house, they are underground or something. I believe that's the same as lying.

I know I'll probably get blasted for this, but I must admit that I would not have a problem with saying something that was true and allowing the dumb soldiers to jump to the wrong conclusion. I wouldn't lie, but I wouldn't correct their ignorance either.

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #48 on:** October 15, 2009, 11:24:38 PM »

Since it's already been agreed that giving information that is clearly false is lying, I figured I'd bring up what the Bible actually specifically says on the topic...

Prov 19:5
5 A false witness will not go unpunished, And he who tells lies will not escape.

Rev 21:8
8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Prov 6:16-19
16 There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.

Acts 5:1-11
5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,
2 and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land?
4 "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God."
5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came upon all who heard of it.
6 And the young men arose and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
7 Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
8 And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."
9 Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they shall carry you out as well."
10 And she fell immediately at his feet, and breathed her last; and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
11 And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #49 on:** October 15, 2009, 11:27:50 PM »

LightningNinja, I'll take your bait and say I am a big fan of Predestination/Determinism. However, my stance on that issue is completely irrelevant to the interpretation of a passge that is a clear, direct, and succinct command. You can't possibly misunderstand God's intent.

Yet you have.

News:

Author Topic: Discussion on false information (Read 32197 times)

Tracer Burnout

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Clarinetguy097

Lamborghini_diablo

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