Author Topic: Discussion of Messianic prophecy in the OT (Read 11735 times)

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 10, 2015, 12:18:54 AM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on May 08, 2015, 02:38:53 AM

Quote from: TheHobbit on May 08, 2015, 01:52:51 AM
Well it a hinges on the resurrection and not the prophecies anyway. Any guy with delusions of grandeur with a background in scripture could try and be the Messiah. Its not obvious at first glance if Jesus was simply following a recipe.

Any guy could be born of a virgin, in Bethlehem, move to Egypt and then be called out of Egypt, and be known as a Nazarene? I thought that pretty much relied on your parents.

His parents could have red that prophecy and simply exaggerated the virgin part. The point is prophecy that has already come to pass is not proof of anything. All we have to go on is the word of those who saw it come to pass, which is good enough for me but not foolproof.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 10, 2015, 12:45:08 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on May 10, 2015, 12:18:54 AM

Quote from: jbeers285 on May 08, 2015, 02:38:53 AM
Quote from: TheHobbit on May 08, 2015, 01:52:51 AM
Well it a hinges on the resurrection and not the prophecies anyway. Any guy with delusions of grandeur with a background in scripture could try and be the Messiah. Its not obvious at first glance if Jesus was simply following a recipe.

Any guy could be born of a virgin, in Bethlehem, move to Egypt and then be called out of Egypt, and be known as a Nazarene? I thought that pretty much relied on your parents.
His parents could have red that prophecy and simply exaggerated the virgin part. The point is prophecy that has already come to pass is not proof of anything. All we have to go on is the word of those who saw it come to pass, which is good enough for me but not foolproof.

We also have outside witnesses who recorded data. Like the Census being decreed and the results. Several of the early church fathers who acted as apologists to the Romans ask the leaders they are appealing to, to go and look up the census and the record of Joseph and Mary in Bethlehem. To go and look up the data And records kept about the death of Jesus by crucifixion. To go and read how it was recorded that his followers believed Jesus rose from the dead.

If those sources didn't exsist for leaders being appealed to then those apologists were fools. They clearly had to have been there at that point in history.

kariusvega · « **Reply #27 on:** May 10, 2015, 01:12:28 AM »

Quote from: Westy on May 09, 2015, 09:04:14 PM

I don't like splitting up posts.

This is basically semantics. Still, a better way to phrase the question would be "Does the old testament accurately predict the Messiah as God?" The fact that it specifies Jesus already makes the assumption that Jesus is indeed the Messiah. There are a few problems with this assumption. While Christians will agree with it, what's the point of asking the question if you're only asking it to people who have obviously already picked an answer? Problem 2 is that Christians agree with it largely because of the interpretations of the OT by the NT (as evidenced by this thread), which is looking at it through biased glasses. This is why I've been stressing looking at it from the OT only. So getting back to what I was talking about, saying "Messiah" instead of "Jesus" eliminates this bias, which is necessary. Or simply throw out the NT like I was doing from the beginning. Either way, it's pointless to take the NT into account.

If you think that Jewish people are still like the Pharisees of old, then it's pointless to discuss this with you. In actuality most Christians are far closer to Pharisees than they'd like to admit.

Once again, this is just assuming you're speaking only to Christians, which is pointless. Until we agree on what the question exactly is and why it's being asked, I'm not sure we can proceed because we're coming at it with a different premise.

And again, I'm not looking at Mark, I'm looking at the prophecies. The question is not whether Jesus was indeed God, but whether the prophecies predicted the Messiah to be God.

Finally, it sounds like you're saying that all rational people believe that Jesus is indeed the Messiah and is indeed God. I'm sure you don't actually believe that every rational person is a Christian, but it comes across that way when you make statements like "The insufficiency could be in their hearts and minds" and " In fact if we try to interpret Scripture in any way as a human without the power and wisdom of the Holy Spirit, we probably come up short." and "The issue is pride and a lack of faith, not a lack of evidence." Be careful of your demeanor, it can very easily turn people away from Christianity. Zeal is not always a boon.

Well, Christians are the biggest threat to Christianity, just as Christ was the biggest threat to himself. The point is, do you believe in Him?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #28 on:** May 10, 2015, 01:25:19 AM »

Is Jesus God or is he a giant spaghetti monster? The Old Testament is unclear.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #29 on:** May 10, 2015, 01:33:21 AM »

As a side note, the Hebrew word for virgin can also mean young woman, which has nothing to do with what we normally associate the word with.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #30 on:** May 10, 2015, 02:54:01 AM »

If the original bible wasn't in English, how could the Jewish scholars interpret it? Checkmate, evangelicals.

jesse · « **Reply #31 on:** May 10, 2015, 02:59:54 AM »

"And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around. Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking." - Ezekiel 1:26-28

“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed." - Daniel 7:13-14

Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?” They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.” “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” - Daniel 3:24-25

And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?” So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?” Then the Commander of the Lord's army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so. - Joshua 5:13-15

Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob's hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.” But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!” So He said to him, “What is your name?”
He said, “Jacob.” And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.” And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” - Genesis 32:24-30

jesse · « **Reply #32 on:** May 10, 2015, 03:31:35 AM »

Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying, “Let us break Their bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us.” He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision. Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure: “Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion.
"I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him. - Psalm 2

My heart is overflowing with a good theme; I recite my composition concerning the King; My tongue is the pen of a ready writer. You are fairer than the sons of men; Grace is poured upon Your lips; Therefore God has blessed You forever. Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One, With Your glory and Your majesty. And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness; And Your right hand shall teach You awesome things. Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King's enemies; The peoples fall under You. Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions. All Your garments are scented with myrrh and aloes and cassia, Out of the ivory palaces, by which they have made You glad. Kings’ daughters are among Your honorable women; At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir. Listen, O daughter, Consider and incline your ear; Forget your own people also, and your father's house; So the King will greatly desire your beauty; Because He is your Lord, worship Him. - Psalm 45:1-11

The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies! Your people shall be volunteers in the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. The Lord has sworn and will not relent, “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.” - Psalm 110:1-4

**The order of Melchizedek = King + priest (of/from Jerusalem! - Genesis 14:18)

Then speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, saying: “Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out, And He shall build the temple of the Lord; Yes, He shall build the temple of the Lord. He shall bear the glory, And shall sit and rule on His throne; So He shall be a priest on His throne, And the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” ’- Zechariah 6:12-14

“Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
-Jeremiah 23:5-6

jbeers285 · « **Reply #33 on:** May 10, 2015, 07:49:07 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 01:25:19 AM

Is Jesus God or is he a giant spaghetti monster? The Old Testament is unclear.

Ok Dawkins

Quote from: Westy on May 10, 2015, 01:33:21 AM

As a side note, the Hebrew word for virgin can also mean young woman, which has nothing to do with what we normally associate the word with.

This is why context is king in any translating. Come on Westy, don't bring the weak sauce. Playing the troll is more interesting when you actually have something trolling to say.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #34 on:** May 10, 2015, 10:14:02 AM »

Typically debates go better when you bring a counter point instead of telling westy he's dumb. But this isn't a debate. This is Christians trying to convert westy and it's honestly kinda disgusting overall.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #35 on:** May 10, 2015, 10:34:14 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 10:14:02 AM

Typically debates go better when you bring a counter point instead of telling westy he's dumb. But this isn't a debate. This is Christians trying to convert westy and it's honestly kinda disgusting overall.

So stating that context is king isn't a valid point?

It would be disgusting if believers didn't attempt to convert the people around them. If I trully believe how much do I hate you if I don's try to bring you to (who I believe is) the savior?

I see that trolling the troll is apparently not permitted.

Redoubter · « **Reply #36 on:** May 10, 2015, 02:08:38 PM »

If this thread is just going to get personal and/or continue to be about trolling, it will be locked. It's pretty clear that this is diverting from the original discussion, and I'm not sure it even needs to continue in its current state.

Red · « **Reply #37 on:** May 10, 2015, 02:41:42 PM »

Quote from: Red on May 10, 2015, 02:35:46 PM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 10:14:02 AM
Typically debates go better when you bring a counter point instead of telling westy he's dumb. But this isn't a debate. This is Christians trying to convert westy and it's honestly kinda disgusting overall.
Does westy need converting? Last I ever knew he didn't? Secondly, trying to convert someone to what you assume/know/believe is not disgusting. It's admirable. If an atheist tried to convert me, I would most definiately respect that he is acting with authority. Granted, I wouldn't agree in the slightest but still.

TheMarti · « **Reply #38 on:** May 10, 2015, 02:42:32 PM »

Please relax a bit, guys. This is an important topic to look at, and it's important to look at various points, but you have to keep it civil or I'll be forced to move this over to OD at the very least.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #39 on:** May 10, 2015, 02:46:58 PM »

Dayne your post reminded me that I had something interesting to bring up, at least I found it interesting. Also my intention was not to call Westy stupid but I can see that is how it came across. My thought process was more along the lines of assuming his intelligence exceeds his post. I also assumed he was simply trolling more then actually posing the question. Sorry for my part in making that appear heated. It was not my intention.

Back to the topic at hand.

Daniel 9:20-27 is the scripture I am referencing if you want to read it yourself.

In 457 B.C. the word is given to free the Jews to return to Isarel to rebuild Jerusalem. This is recorded in Ezra 11. When you look at the prophecy given to Daniel by Gabriel we see the 7, 7's and 62, 7's will pass from the time the word goes out to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed one comes. These sets of 7's come out to 483 years. In the middle of the last seven Gabriel says the annoited one will be cut off. (The Hebrew word for cut is equal to executed.) From 457 B.C. If you move ahead 483 years you arrive at 27 A.D. Even with a year or two discrepancy this is a precise prophecy that is applicable to Jesus' death.

Several well known Jewish Rabbis have become Christ followers after discerning this prophecy. Rachmiel Frydland 1919-1985 is one such example.

kariusvega · « **Reply #40 on:** May 10, 2015, 04:17:00 PM »

Isn't asking someone if they believe in Christ the core of Christianity and discipleship, which would be the entire intention of any Christian having this discussion? Affirmation of our faith in Jesus? Because objectively this entire topic has done just that..

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #41 on:** May 10, 2015, 05:18:33 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on May 10, 2015, 01:12:28 AM

Well, Christians are the biggest threat to Christianity, just as Christ was the biggest threat to himself. The point is, do you believe in Him?

Quote from: jbeers285 on May 10, 2015, 10:34:14 AM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 10:14:02 AM
Typically debates go better when you bring a counter point instead of telling westy he's dumb. But this isn't a debate. This is Christians trying to convert westy and it's honestly kinda disgusting overall.

So stating that context is king isn't a valid point?

It would be disgusting if believers didn't attempt to convert the people around them. If I trully believe how much do I hate you if I don's try to bring you to (who I believe is) the savior?

Quote from: Red on May 10, 2015, 02:35:46 PM

Does westy need converting? Last I ever knew he didn't? Secondly, trying to convert someone to what you assume/know/believe is not disgusting. It's admirable. If an atheist tried to convert me, I would most definiately respect that he is acting with authority. Granted, I wouldn't agree in the slightest but still.

This is not at all what Jesus described as how to go about spreading his Gospel. It's embarassing that anyone on this forum would so blatantly proselytize a prominent member of the forums with a well known theological positions in relative closeness to orthodox Christianity. This thread has long since digressed from being about the topic and devolved into "How can I prove Westy is wrong to Westy so Westy will love Jesus more and be saved?". It's a disgusting displaying of people who think they are right unable to do anything but spout what they think are facts back to someone. There is literally no room in this conversation for Westy to even maybe be right, because everyone is just assuming he's a heretic based on the tonality of posts.

You can't convert someone on the internet so stop trying.

Per the topic at hand, this is a ridiculous question because, shockingly, as Jay pointed out, you can't really answer this question with the NT, and this question is expressing ignoring the NT.

kariusvega · « **Reply #42 on:** May 10, 2015, 06:17:49 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 05:18:33 PM

Quote from: kariusvega on May 10, 2015, 01:12:28 AM
Well, Christians are the biggest threat to Christianity, just as Christ was the biggest threat to himself. The point is, do you believe in Him?

Quote from: jbeers285 on May 10, 2015, 10:34:14 AM
Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 10:14:02 AM
Typically debates go better when you bring a counter point instead of telling westy he's dumb. But this isn't a debate. This is Christians trying to convert westy and it's honestly kinda disgusting overall.

So stating that context is king isn't a valid point?

It would be disgusting if believers didn't attempt to convert the people around them. If I trully believe how much do I hate you if I don's try to bring you to (who I believe is) the savior?

Quote from: Red on May 10, 2015, 02:35:46 PM
Does westy need converting? Last I ever knew he didn't? Secondly, trying to convert someone to what you assume/know/believe is not disgusting. It's admirable. If an atheist tried to convert me, I would most definiately respect that he is acting with authority. Granted, I wouldn't agree in the slightest but still.

This is not at all what Jesus described as how to go about spreading his Gospel. It's embarassing that anyone on this forum would so blatantly proselytize a prominent member of the forums with a well known theological positions in relative closeness to orthodox Christianity. This thread has long since digressed from being about the topic and devolved into "How can I prove Westy is wrong to Westy so Westy will love Jesus more and be saved?". It's a disgusting displaying of people who think they are right unable to do anything but spout what they think are facts back to someone. There is literally no room in this conversation for Westy to even maybe be right, because everyone is just assuming he's a heretic based on the tonality of posts.

You can't convert someone on the internet so stop trying.

Per the topic at hand, this is a ridiculous question because, shockingly, as Jay pointed out, you can't really answer this question with the NT, and this question is expressing ignoring the NT.

How does anyone posting anything reaffirming faith in Jesus have a negative affect here? Especially when it is for the person who initially asked that said they are writing a book on the topic haha the post being separated is causing a bigger problem to his original post which may have more responses to the survey since now it has practically been buried by separation

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #43 on:** May 10, 2015, 07:54:20 PM »

Quote from: The Marti on May 10, 2015, 02:42:32 PM

...but you have to keep it civil or I'll be forced to move this over to OD at the very least.

Yes! Please do! That way I won't have to see it anymore.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #44 on:** May 10, 2015, 08:02:32 PM »

I thought I brought up an interesting prophecy from the book of Daniel. And I thought that it was worth adding to the thread. I didn't realize it would remain on the path that it did. I haven't locked it because I was involved in the thread.

I guess I can't do it from this section of the boards anyways.

Red · « **Reply #45 on:** May 10, 2015, 08:34:25 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 05:18:33 PM

Quote from: kariusvega on May 10, 2015, 01:12:28 AM
Well, Christians are the biggest threat to Christianity, just as Christ was the biggest threat to himself. The point is, do you believe in Him?

Quote from: jbeers285 on May 10, 2015, 10:34:14 AM
Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 10:14:02 AM
Typically debates go better when you bring a counter point instead of telling westy he's dumb. But this isn't a debate. This is Christians trying to convert westy and it's honestly kinda disgusting overall.

So stating that context is king isn't a valid point?

It would be disgusting if believers didn't attempt to convert the people around them. If I trully believe how much do I hate you if I don's try to bring you to (who I believe is) the savior?

Quote from: Red on May 10, 2015, 02:35:46 PM
Does westy need converting? Last I ever knew he didn't? Secondly, trying to convert someone to what you assume/know/believe is not disgusting. It's admirable. If an atheist tried to convert me, I would most definiately respect that he is acting with authority. Granted, I wouldn't agree in the slightest but still.

This is not at all what Jesus described as how to go about spreading his Gospel. It's embarassing that anyone on this forum would so blatantly proselytize a prominent member of the forums with a well known theological positions in relative closeness to orthodox Christianity. This thread has long since digressed from being about the topic and devolved into "How can I prove Westy is wrong to Westy so Westy will love Jesus more and be saved?". It's a disgusting displaying of people who think they are right unable to do anything but spout what they think are facts back to someone. There is literally no room in this conversation for Westy to even maybe be right, because everyone is just assuming he's a heretic based on the tonality of posts.

You can't convert someone on the internet so stop trying.

Per the topic at hand, this is a ridiculous question because, shockingly, as Jay pointed out, you can't really answer this question with the NT, and this question is expressing ignoring the NT.

If I conveyed that I thought he was a heretic it was unintentional. My apologies on that front.

Drrek · « **Reply #46 on:** May 12, 2015, 03:42:44 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 05:18:33 PM

You can't convert someone on the internet so stop trying.

Now I'm talking about general conversion to Christianity here, not Messianic prophecy, but you should absolutely keep trying to convert people on the internet. Now I don't think Westy is in need of a conversion to Christianity, since he already seems to have made that conversion, I'm talking about saving those who do not believe through conversion to Christianity here.

When Herod asked to Paul "Do you think in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?," his response was not "well I guess it won't work here so I won't try." No, it was "Short time or long, I pray to God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains."

The matter of following Christ is of infinite importance, and there's is literally nothing that comes close to its importance. Even when an avenue of witnessing didn't seem to bear much fruit, Paul didn't give up on Herod, and we aren't to give up on our fellow man. The only thing that matters in this life is one's relationship with God, and if you truly believe in Jesus, then growing in your relationship with God, and trying to serve and save others should be your primary goals in life.

Daniel · « **Reply #47 on:** May 12, 2015, 03:47:34 PM »

It's not a religion debate on these forums if Red isn't using the word "heretic"

News:

Author Topic: Discussion of Messianic prophecy in the OT (Read 11735 times)

TheHobbit13

kariusvega

Warrior_Monk

Rawrlolsauce!

TheMarti

kariusvega

kariusvega

Daniel