Cactus Game Design Message Boards

True!!

A few proofs:

"For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
    and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." - Isaiah 9:6

“Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;
And He will reign as king and act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.
“In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
‘The Lord our righteousness.’" - Jeremiah 23:5-6

"The Lord says to my Lord:
    'Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.'" - Psalm 110:1

Hebrews 1:8, "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."
[Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."]

“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [h]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn." - Zechariah 12:10

You're right that there is one God - but He is triune: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit. Definitely a mystery but Genesis to Revelation it's what God reveals about Himself. 

"This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time." - 1 Timothy 2:3-6

If Jesus wasn't/isn't God, then we are hopelessly condemned to hell because only God can take away our sins...but it had to be a man who stood in our place, because humanity is who is guilty of sin. In God's perfect holiness and justice, every sin is deserving of hell, and the one who sins is the one held guilty- unless a perfect substitute is offered in place (sacrificial lamb's bloodshed + death concept established in the O.T.). So Jesus is uniquely the only possible savior - God who took on humanity because of His unimaginable love for us, and because of our dire need for salvation.

Jesus really is God and it is the best news EVER 

I may be misunderstanding something but don't almost all Jewish scholars concur that OT prophecies all had short and long term forms of fulfillment?  Don't most of them believe that as Westy said those prophecies pointed to Hezekiah and possibly Josiah but that they also point to the messiah?

Granted I accept Jesus as the Messiah, but Jewish scholars would still say the long term fulfillment has not yet come.

I am at work but have something interesting from the prophecy of Daniel I would like to share in this thread but will need a computer to type on. So hold me a place :-)

I think the best OT references which truly allude to Christ are Noah, Moses with the Golden Serpent http://www.zianet.com/maxey/brsnake1.jpg, and Abraham. I mean, Moses put EXACTLY what was killing the people on a cross for them to focus with pin point precision on the fact they were going to kill themselves by leaving the camp to go commit sin. In John 3 Jesus says to Nicodemus "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up." This is a perfect illustration of how we are in fact physically killing ourselves with our sin psychologically all the way to biologically. This is a scientific principle often over looked all the way to our society today. Every one of your neurons are connected to a part of your body. Giving your neurons any other connection to anything but continuous harmonious inner connection from clogged arteries, smoking, drinking HIV/AIDS, Ebola, leprosy, will physically manifest as cancerous tumors and diseases where they are no longer focused on their task at hand (survival). Often facing death is a way to forcefully invoke the will to survive which yields harmony from a number of different physiological/chemical genetically developed reactions to circumstances.. But is also a path to dying.

With Abraham and Isaac the Father tells him not to kill Isaac as an ultimate sacrifice knowing it would not be sufficient for mankind at the time.

This is honestly the biggest problem with humans- they can know not the knowledge of God (or the knowledge of Good) because of the place for the knowledge of evil. In example, knowing time as one linear path. Jesus knows multitudes of times and possible outcomes as they exist in wavelengths and frequencies we do not physically access as carbon based beings. Carbon 12 (6 protons, 6 neutrons, 6 electrons), yes we are the beast, is what makes 98% of the life WE KNOW OF. Only what we know of though..  Keep in mind, stars trajectories are hyperbolic and omni directional.

I guarantee the same percentage of people on this forum alone are oblivious to their own demons. Knowing not as a not is simply knowing that which isn't- which won't take you anywhere or get you anything relatively speaking, basically setting you up for complete demonic exploitation. Falling through a vacuum of space revolving around one central entity (a literal lake of fire) just as we are in our solar system around our star makes Jesus quite relevant from a neurological to an astrological perspective. Anyone who has taken a look at the universe can clearly tell that rationally we are quite self similar proportionately if you know anything about the Golden Ratio and can feel a song for instance (the frequencies of vibration at specific biologically known yet psychological ignorant to exact frequencies).

The best part about Christianity which I feel is often the most exempt from consideration is the fact that it is applied science. The law is a way to live. Life yields life and is how you live. Do not die, and you will survive. Keep the fruits of the spirit and you will have much more than the bare necessities of life. Jesus is the keystone between the OT and the NT just as he is the keystone to understanding the connection of religion to science.

But probably the best prophecy of Christ above all can be found at the very beginning of the Bible in Genesis 1 when God says "Let there be light". Before there was light, there was darkness. Before we could be alive to understand, we were not. Understanding Christ as God and as King allows us to understand Christ as understanding. Understanding him as a being and becoming truly Christ like is our way to potentially have eternal life in Him as our genealogical lineage has continued to exist through to this point in time due to His very own applied scientific way of life.

Well it a hinges on the resurrection and not the prophecies anyway. Any guy with delusions of grandeur with a background in scripture could try and be the Messiah. Its not obvious at first glance if Jesus was simply following a recipe.

I discuss this topic at great length in my book:
Mighty Messianic Prophecy: Biblical Research of Predictions Proving that Jesus Is God.

You can actually read the first 3 chapters of it for free online here:
http://joechiappetta.blogspot.com/2013/11/mighty-messianic-prophecy-book.html

A good one is in Genesis 3:15.

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

This predicts Satan's downful at the defeat of death by Jesus' hand.

No, it doesn't. It doesn't say anything about Jesus.

But Jesus was not a king.

Isaiah is probably talking about himself in Isaiah 53. The context says "To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" and then that passage follows.

I've already mentioned that Zechariah is (probably) referring to God, or perhaps Israel, in chapter 12.  It's pretty clearly figurative language, like much of prophecy.

But Jesus was not a king.

Isaiah is probably talking about himself in Isaiah 53. The context says "To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" and then that passage follows.

I've already mentioned that Zechariah is (probably) referring to God, or perhaps Israel, in chapter 12.  It's pretty clearly figurative language, like much of prophecy.

Jesus will return a king. The issue here is that you are trying to interpret this like a Jew or Muslim. You have to look at the whole of the Bible to discern prophecy.

Quote from: Red on May 08, 2015, 09:13:28 PM

Quote from: Westy on May 08, 2015, 06:33:37 PM

But Jesus was not a king.

Isaiah is probably talking about himself in Isaiah 53. The context says "To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" and then that passage follows.

I've already mentioned that Zechariah is (probably) referring to God, or perhaps Israel, in chapter 12.  It's pretty clearly figurative language, like much of prophecy.

Jesus will return a king. The issue here is that you are trying to interpret this like a Jew or Muslim. You have to look at the whole of the Bible to discern prophecy.

Not when the original question specified only looking at the old testament (as a Jew or Muslim might look at it, yes).

Can a Muslim or Jew be presented the factual evidence of Jesus life as accounted for in a historical (non-religious) sense? Sure they can. So to say you have to interpret it without knowledge of Jesus existence would also be inaccurate.

lol troll

I sort of agree with westy overall.

Quote

Not when the original question specified only looking at the old testament

The original question did not specify that, it just asked whether it accurately predicted Jesus as God, which it did.  The question of whether you could or would understand the prophecy of the Old Testament by only looking at the Old Testament is a different question. 

Quote

There's a reason Jewish people don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah, nor that he was God, and that's because it's not conclusive.

 

That is false. The issue is pride and a lack of faith, not a lack of evidence. This was pretty explicitly demonstrated in the gospels and Acts with the Pharisees and priests not contesting the facts of the miracles but refusing to accept Christ anyway.

Quote

Throwing out the N.T. takes a way a lot of arguments for Jesus being God himself, and if you're looking at the O.T. alone, I don't think I'd come up with the Messiah being God himself.

Maybe and if I looked at the N.T. alone, a lot of that wouldn't make sense either. They are separate parts but they are meant by God the author to be understood as one whole.  You can of course study individual parts but they are never in isolation from the rest. Throwing out part of the Bible or looking at it as a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, scientologist, etc. is probably just going to lead to bad interpretation.  In fact if we try to interpret Scripture in any way as a human without the power and wisdom of the Holy Spirit, we probably come up short. 

Quote

Psalm 110:1 I don't get why you think this refers to Jesus. "Lord" is a term for royalty.  It's more likely referring to David or Solomon.  Plus I don't think Jesus would want his enemies as his footstool. He'd want to have a drink with them sometime.

This is and Isaiah 53 are good examples.  I understand where you could be coming from here but why depend on our own guesses when Jesus actually says this is about himself in Matt. 22:41-46 (and Mark and Luke)?  This is no offense to you but I'm certain that Jesus is better at interpreting this passage then you or I.  There are so many cross references for Isaiah 53 that I can't list them all but Acts 8:26-39 is a fairly good one. The eunuch with only the O.T. to study was uncertain of Isaiah's meaning but Phillip with the knowledge of the gospel and Christ's teachings and the guidance of the Holy Spirit was able to explain it to him. 

I've seen references to the interpretations of the Jewish people, Jewish scholars, etc as sources that deserve respect and are valid but the N.T. is not a valid source?  I'll trust Paul the apostle (or Peter, John, etc.) as reliable, credible experts on the topic far more than any of those others.  This is not even getting into my position as a believer in Christ and my trust in His Word. 

Quote

.....the proof from the OT you posted was insufficient for Jewish scholars examining the same evidence to come to that same conclusion.

First of all the evidence posted is far from all the evidence available but regardless this view is misleading.  There have been plenty of scholars, Jewish and otherwise, who have studied the Scriptures and come to the conclusion that Jesus is God the Savior.  Secondly there are examples like Herod and his experts that clearly understood the Scriptures to prophesy the savior being born in Bethlehem but still rejected Jesus and tried to kill him.  Contrary to there being insufficient evidence, Herod seemed convinced enough to think it worth the effort to slaughter many innocent children to try and stop this new king. 

Just because some don't understand, disagree, or reject the Scriptures doesn't mean they are not clear and true in what they say. The insufficiency could be in the minds and hearts of the readers/listeners.

Precisely.

In actuality most Christians are far closer to Pharisees than they'd like to admit.

I admit that I wish I was more like Joseph of Arimathea, at least from a financial standpoint.