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Open Forum => Off-Topic => Topic started by: juhnkect on September 03, 2009, 01:12:43 AM
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Is cussing a sin?
Yes side: (1) We are held accountable for every idle word. (2) We are to be light and salt. (3) in the world not of it.
No side: (1) Cussing is a cultural thing... a curse word here in America can mean nothing in Tokyo. (2) The apostle Paul uses a very harsh slang word for "dung" which (i've heard, but i can't unfortunately back it up) was the equivalent of curse word in the original language. (3) We are given Christian liberty in Romans
I realize I elaborated a little more on the no side, because I think for the most part, the yes side is self explanatory and the direction most of us lean. This is just something I've been mauling over. Please be mature if you decide to discuss this. I'm not advocating "filthy speech" I just wanted to know where most of you guys stood.. or if you'd even given it much thought.
Remember the posting guidelines! :)
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Hey,
I'm not sure cussing is a sin. But I'm pretty sure it's not Christlike.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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All things are permissible, and not all things are advisable. Don't eat meat sacrificed to idols if it causes your brother to stumble.
Cursing is entirely situational, like lying. Sometimes it's a sin, sometimes it isn't. If you are in a situation and you need something done NOW, and it's very important, not cursing can be a sin if by refraining you aren't able to accomplish what needs to be accomplished. However, cursing in anger is a sin; the sin is not cursing, the sin is harboring violence in your heart for whomever you are cursing.
Cursing shouldn't be your MO, just as you shouldn't be a liar, but sometimes cursing, and lying, are not only not sin, but imperative.
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lying isnt a sin? ???
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Not always. Read The Hiding Place if you don't believe me, or just wait for your wife to ask her if she looks fat.
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thats a loaded question. i always make sure i conveniently have a twix bar on hand when my girlfriend asks me that. :)
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Colossians 3:8
"But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips."
Ephesians 5:3-5
"But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."
Ephesians 4:29
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."
Cussing is a cultural thing... a curse word here in America can mean nothing in Tokyo.
But the actual act of cursing is frowned on, no matter where you are. Saying a lie in English in Tokyo would also mean nothing there.
The apostle Paul uses a very harsh slang word for "dung" which (i've heard, but i can't unfortunately back it up) was the equivalent of curse word in the original language.
I've heard that before, too, but can find neither a reliable source that translates it this way, nor proof that it was considered a bad word at the time.
Cursing is entirely situational, like lying. Sometimes it's a sin, sometimes it isn't. If you are in a situation and you need something done NOW, and it's very important, not cursing can be a sin if by refraining you aren't able to accomplish what needs to be accomplished.
So if I really need to do something, some of the acts that God says will keep us out of Heaven (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21:8) (ie, lying) are permissible?
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That verse says liars. Not those who tell lies. We had a long discussion about this a long time ago, and there will never be a resolution. I read that verse as speaking to a heart condition, rather than physical acts. Someone who lives life to sleep around is sexually immoral. Someone who messes up, does something bad, and then genuinely repents is not. Someone who habitually lies, especially for personal gain, is a liar. Someone who tells a lie from time to time is not. But that's simply a difference in how we view both what that verse is saying and what the nature of sin is.
With regard to the first three, the second two easily fit into my paradigm. Foolishness and coarse joking is not a permissible form of cursing under my own guidelines. And it's not unwholesome talk if it is for the purpose of building others up, or more likely to the benefit of those who listen. The first one is the strongest argument you have, and I'm going to have to read it in context before I comment on it further.
*EDIT* This is why it's important to read different translations. The Colossians verse only implies what you think it to mean in the NIV version. I checked the ESV and KJV and they each read much more along the lines of the other two verses you posted; that is, discourage crass joking and unwonted cursing.
In light of that, I am unpersuaded.
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Not always. Read The Hiding Place if you don't believe me, or just wait for your wife to ask her if she looks fat.
Had Jesus been married, would He have lied to His wife if she asked Him that question? I think not.
Lying is always a sin (after all, the commandment not to bear false witness has no stipulation). But in certain cases (such as with Corrie Ten Boom in The Hiding Place, or with the harlot Rahab who hid Jewish spies (I forget where, exactly, in Scripture that's found -- I think it's in Joshua), because God is rich in mercy, He seems not to punish sins that were used to protect the innocent. It doesn't make it right, it just means God understood the situation and won't hold it against you.
Swearing is always a sin (after all, it goes against Colossians 3:8, et al), and under no circumstances would swearing ever be a necessity. If you were ever in a life or death situation, you could get out of it just as easily by not swearing as you could by swearing. It's never necessary.
Additionally, sure swearing is a cultural thing. But God looks at the heart; it's the intention behind the word. If I say, "I just got cut; my hand is bloody," there's nothing wrong with that, even though the last word in that sentence is a harsh profanity in England. Just let the Scriptures speak for themselves. After all, it's all inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16). So if it tells us to not let any unclean speech into our language, I think we ought to listen.
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Meecrob....
Curse word to the fullest.
Eric "Cartman" Largent
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I figured you'd be closed-minded, but it was worth a try. Maybe even worth one more try.
Lying is always a sin (after all, the commandment not to bear false witness has no stipulation).
Define "bearing false witness" for me. That's legal terminology, and if you want to go all literal, that is a commandment not to lie in court. Which I agree with. Be careful before you invoke an extreme. That verse proves nothing as a too-literal reading will yield only an admonition not to lie in court, and from any other stand point it can just as easily be interpreted as a ban on lying with malicious intent or for personal gain.
But in certain cases (such as with Corrie Ten Boom in The Hiding Place, or with the harlot Rahab who hid Jewish spies (I forget where, exactly, in Scripture that's found), because God is rich in mercy, He seems not to punish sins that were used to protect the innocent.
God is Holy and Just. Isn't it more likely that he "won't hold it against you" because it's not a sin?
Swearing is always a sin (after all, it goes against Colossians 3:8, et al)
I've already answered this, so you're being unhelpful by bringing up again without a counter-rebuttal.
This paragraph I agree with. Except for the part where you insist on going with the NIV translation only.
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I figured you'd be closed-minded, but it was worth a try. Maybe even worth one more try.
Lying is always a sin (after all, the commandment not to bear false witness has no stipulation).
Define "bearing false witness" for me. That's legal terminology, and if you want to go all literal, that is a commandment not to lie in court. Which I agree with. Be careful before you invoke an extreme. That verse proves nothing as a too-literal reading will yield only an admonition not to lie in court, and from any other stand point it can just as easily be interpreted as a ban on lying with malicious intent or for personal gain.
But in certain cases (such as with Corrie Ten Boom in The Hiding Place, or with the harlot Rahab who hid Jewish spies (I forget where, exactly, in Scripture that's found), because God is rich in mercy, He seems not to punish sins that were used to protect the innocent.
God is Holy and Just. Isn't it more likely that he "won't hold it against you" because it's not a sin?
Swearing is always a sin (after all, it goes against Colossians 3:8, et al)
I've already answered this, so you're being unhelpful by bringing up again without a counter-rebuttal.
This paragraph I agree with. Except for the part where you insist on going with the NIV translation only.
Are insults standard operating procedure for you? I'm sorry if I come across as "closed-minded", but I do believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture. That way, I don't go by my own "interpretation" to fit my beliefs, but I go by what God says.
I'm not going to bother arguing with you, as you'll only disagree with me because you've already labeled me as "closed-minded."
(And FYI, I use New King James, not NIV, and it says to keep filthy language out of your mouth in Colossians 3:8.)
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If you want to admit you don't have an answer, admit it. Hiding behind false dignity isn't going to cut it at this point. I will, one more time, explain why you aren't making sense.
I am also a literalist. I am also not presumptuous enough to assume everything is always as it appears. People have maimed themselves and others because of a too-literal interpretation of scripture. I believe that the earth was created in six days. I also believe that some or all of those days are tallied from the center of the universe, with the perspective shifting to earth no later than when man is created. That's a 100% literal interpretation of Genesis, but it's not the interpretation you make.
I don't disagree with you because you are closed-minded. I gave specific, logical and spiritually sound reasons for why I disagree with you, and they did not include your closed-mindedness. And calling someone closed-minded is only an insult if taken as such. I am proud of being closed-minded about many things. You misunderstand me: if you're closed-minded about some things, more power to you. I'm just not going to waste any more of my time on debating you if this is one of the things you are closed-minded about.
*EDIT* FYI nothing. In KJV and ESV it has a different phraseology that fits better with the rest of scripture.
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Words are defined by their contextual use, not by the state of affairs they represent. If I were to say "I went to a [darn] movie", I am not cursing the movie I went to, I am simply adding a contextually appropriate emphasis to the word "movie".
Yes, I just answered this thread by bringing up Wittgenstein's "language game" theory.
I will also disprove all Biblical arguments by saying that the disciples did not have the proper understanding of how language works back then.
I will also point to the fact that Paul cursed the Galatians with a wish that they would castrate themselves during circumcision. Jesus cursed the fig tree. Prophets cursed more than Eminem.
I usually try to avoid dropping f-bombs outside of those in some of my songs. I find British curse words to be fun.
I find that it's important not to put too much vocal emphasis on the curse word when using it in a sentence. If you do, you sound like you're trying to be cool.
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If you want to admit you don't have an answer, admit it. Hiding behind false dignity isn't going to cut it at this point. I will, one more time, explain why you aren't making sense.
I am also a literalist. I am also not presumptuous enough to assume everything is always as it appears. People have maimed themselves and others because of a too-literal interpretation of scripture. I believe that the earth was created in six days. I also believe that some or all of those days are tallied from the center of the universe, with the perspective shifting to earth no later than when man is created. That's a 100% literal interpretation of Genesis, but it's not the interpretation you make.
I don't disagree with you because you are closed-minded. I gave specific, logical and spiritually sound reasons for why I disagree with you, and they did not include your closed-mindedness. And calling someone closed-minded is only an insult if taken as such. I am proud of being closed-minded about many things. You misunderstand me: if you're closed-minded about some things, more power to you. I'm just not going to waste any more of my time on debating you if this is one of the things you are closed-minded about.
*EDIT* FYI nothing. In KJV and ESV it has a different phraseology that fits better with the rest of scripture.
I do have an answer. But if you're just going to call me closed-minded for having an answer, then my time is best spent elsewhere. I'm not "hiding behind false dignity", I just don't want to waste my time with someone who won't give my arguments a fair hearing. I don't argue for the sake of being right. But I also don't twist Scripture to meet my interpretation, as you are doing. If Colossians says to keep filthy language out of your mouth, how else can you take that other than "don't swear and talk dirty"? You are trying to contort it to mean only what you think it does in conjunction with other verses. Not only does it go against Scripture but swearing also makes a person sound uneducated.
Oh, and I'd love to hear how a "literal interpretation" of Genesis involves measuring time from the center of the universe rather than how we understand time here.
Also, Colin, you disprove nothing with your statement. Whether or not the Disciples understood it or not, God understood language. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16) and so Paul, whether he understood it or not (though I would lean towards that he did understand languages), would be able to accurately give us admonishions to keep filthy language out of our mouths.
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All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16)
Way to take the verse out of context; it was written three centuries before the writings of Paul were considered to be scripture. The majority of early Christians, in fact, hated Paul. Paul is obviously talking about the Torah or Tanakh.
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I give your arguments a fair hearing and find them misguided. We've been over Colossians, there are translations that make it sound like all swearing is off limits period, and there are translations that make it sound like foolish speech (or, unwonted cursing) is off limits. The latter is more in sync with the rest of scripture (including, may I remind you, two verses you yourself posted), so I will go with how those translators read the Greek.
God says there was a day, and then a day, and then a day etc. and I believe him. The earth was created in six days. However, time is relative. I'm not going to go into that unless you were not just being snide when you said you would love to hear...and so on.
*EDIT* Majority is a stretch, Colin.
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All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16)
Way to take the verse out of context; it was written three centuries before the writings of Paul were considered to be scripture. The majority of early Christians, in fact, hated Paul. Paul is obviously talking about the Torah or Tanakh.
Colin, you might be interested to know that Peter, in fact, considered Paul's writings to be Scripture -- and, by the way, Peter called him "our beloved brother" (see 2 Peter 3: 14-16). I don't see anywhere that Paul was hated. This might fall under the "thou shalt not bear false witness" category.
And Polarius, I was actually quite serious when I said I'd love to hear your explanation. I put "literal interpretation" in quotes because I have read that passage countless times and have never thought that it was intended to be understood as anywhere but from Earth, and I doubt anyone would ever get that from the passage upon their first reading.
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There is a trove of scientific archeological evidence that strongly points to an old earth. There are also even stronger anthropological evidences that point to an earth ~8000 years old (such as tracing genomes and language patterns). These sets of evidences are seemingly irreconcilable with the Genesis account of creation. How can the earth be millions of years old, but humanity be thousands of years old if it came to be six days after the creation of the earth?
The answer is that time is not a constant, and that the universe is expanding. If I were to send a radio signal from the centre of the universe at creation, and then send a second one a second later, they would reach a given point on the outer expansion far more than a second apart. Therefore, a logical explaination that allows for both a literal interpretation of Genesis and acceptance of scientific discoveries is that the days in at least some of the creation account are measured from that central point. There, only days would have passed. Elsewhere in the universe, time does not follow the same path. It is faster, because the universe is expanding.
I have found this to be the best way to explain why some evidences point to an old earth, and others to young humanity. And still literally interpret the bible.
*EDIT* I apologize for assuming you were being snide. That seems to be the MO in internet debates and it's refreshing that you don't conform to that mold.
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not cussing shows that we are different.
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There is a trove of scientific archeological evidence that strongly points to an old earth. There are also even stronger anthropological evidences that point to an earth ~8000 years old (such as tracing genomes and language patterns). These sets of evidences are seemingly irreconcilable with the Genesis account of creation. How can the earth be millions of years old, but humanity be thousands of years old if it came to be six days after the creation of the earth?
The answer is that time is not a constant, and that the universe is expanding. If I were to send a radio signal from the centre of the universe at creation, and then send a second one a second later, they would reach a given point on the outer expansion far more than a second apart. Therefore, a logical explaination that allows for both a literal interpretation of Genesis and acceptance of scientific discoveries is that the days in at least some of the creation account are measured from that central point. There, only days would have passed. Elsewhere in the universe, time does not follow the same path. It is faster, because the universe is expanding.
I have found this to be the best way to explain why some evidences point to an old earth, and others to young humanity. And still literally interpret the bible.
*EDIT* I apologize for assuming you were being snide. That seems to be the MO in internet debates and it's refreshing that you don't conform to that mold.
I'm glad you contributed that to the discussion.........about cussing :P
I think that we should control our tongue. The Bible clearly says not to allow filthy language out of our mouth. That is enough for me.
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I agree with Pol and Colin (I think I can't tell what he's saying really) thatit is of no matter and that they didn't fully understand language and that yes the prophets cursed more than Eminem...thank you for my new signature :)
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I would put cussing and drinking alcohol in much the same category. They are behaviors that are not particularly good for you (who actually drinks 6oz of wine ONLY when they are drinking). More importantly, they are also behaviors that non-Christians associate as being unChristlike. Therefore, when Christians do them, it causes non-Christians to either view them as hypocrites, or to view Christianity as not really making any difference in a person's life. That's not a message that I want my life to be sending.
My personal opinion is also that people who cuss lack either the vocabulary or the self-control to express themselves better.
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Well we won't get into drinking and cursing all in the same topic but I think cursing is a way toexpress anger and I think its not very hardto have self control by not dropping f-bombs every where but getting mad and saying something small....also english curse words wyn
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(who actually drinks 6oz of wine ONLY when they are drinking)
I do. 6oz of a nice merlot goes well with the steaks I BBQ. :)
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this thread is provocative
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I agree with Pol and Colin (I think I can't tell what he's saying really) thatit is of no matter and that they didn't fully understand language and that yes the prophets cursed more than Eminem...thank you for my new signature :)
How sad that a false generization can be accepted so quickly.
Psalm 34:12-14 (New Living Translation)
12 Does anyone want to live a life
that is long and prosperous?
13 Then keep your tongue from speaking evil
and your lips from telling lies!
14 Turn away from evil and do good.
Search for peace, and work to maintain it.
Psalm 59:12 (New Living Translation)
12 Because of the sinful things they say,
because of the evil that is on their lips,
let them be captured by their pride,
their curses, and their lies.
James 3:9-10 (New Living Translation)
9 Sometimes it praises our Lord and Father, and sometimes it curses those who have been made in the image of God. 10 And so blessing and cursing come pouring out of the same mouth. Surely, my brothers and sisters, this is not right!
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There is a trove of scientific archeological evidence that strongly points to an old earth. There are also even stronger anthropological evidences that point to an earth ~8000 years old (such as tracing genomes and language patterns). These sets of evidences are seemingly irreconcilable with the Genesis account of creation. How can the earth be millions of years old, but humanity be thousands of years old if it came to be six days after the creation of the earth?
The answer is that time is not a constant, and that the universe is expanding. If I were to send a radio signal from the centre of the universe at creation, and then send a second one a second later, they would reach a given point on the outer expansion far more than a second apart. Therefore, a logical explaination that allows for both a literal interpretation of Genesis and acceptance of scientific discoveries is that the days in at least some of the creation account are measured from that central point. There, only days would have passed. Elsewhere in the universe, time does not follow the same path. It is faster, because the universe is expanding.
You obviously have never taken physics... certainly the radio waves would be slightly more than a second apart when they reached the edge of the universe but no more than very slightly. In addition, how can you say that there are "days" when talking about the center of the universe. Our current concept of days (and even time, in general) is based totally on our solar system and the way the Earth reacts with it.
This leads me to believe that God inspired Moses to write about creation in a way that would make sense to us simple minded humans (in comparison to our almighty God). He made Moses explain creation in a way that showed creation took time. Since God's "time" is totally different than ours he used a term that was both familiar and simple; a "day".
Moses could've just said that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in it and then he was done, but instead he insisted upon the fact that God's creation took time to be created. This, and all the scientific data collected over the years, leads me to believe that we are living in an "Old Earth".
To be relevant to the actual subject of this topic, I would agree fully with what Prof Underwood said.
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I think that it's more important for a Christian, or for anyone, to have a positive attitude. If one has a positive attitude and uses swear words on occasion, I can't see anything that would hinder one from eudaimonia.
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....also english curse words wyn
Caleb, Caleb, Caleb
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I think this whole discussion is missing something. Cussing is much more about the heart and the intent of the use of the words than the actual word themselves. When people curse in anger/fear/shock/Surprise or to "look cool" or simply to offend with no further purpose than to shock, those are sins. I believe them to be sins because they have no place in a holy life. God has called us to a life of holiness and purity and to live above the common culture of our day.
True, curse words are different from culture to culture, but you know what is appropriate or inappropriate for your culture so you know what you will be offensive to those around you and what you should be convicted of if you curse in their presence and possibly offend them.
Cursing by your self if only different in that you may not have offended someone else, but you still have to deal with the heart issue that caused you to speak in that manner. Is it Rage/anger? Pride? what was the motivation for that is the true root of the sin.
Curse words used with a valid purpose or intent I believe are not a sin because the motivation behind them was to eduate or instruct. Tony Campolo has spoken several times on social issues such as world hunger and one of his lines that he uses in his speeches is this:
"I have three things I'd like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don't give a $h1t. What's worse is that you're more upset with the fact that I said $h1t than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night."
I think using harsh or offensive language in this instance and similar instances where the purpose is to educat or iinstruct is appropriate use of the language. but that is just MHO
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I just don't cuss. It's not really a polite thing to do and it offends people. WWJD. He wouldn't offend anyone.
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I'm not going to read this whole thread, but I will state my opinion, which is that cussing is not a sin, but is more of a cultural/lingual isuue. Although less so in the future, the use of swear words used to be frowned upon as something used by lower-class people. Nowadays, cussing has sort of been adopted as a christian issue, so that a lot of people think it is a sin, when really the Bible says very little about it. Because of this I believe Christians should avoid swearing because it gives bad impressions. However, when you're alone in a garage or whatever, I don't think God will care if you let out a few harmless swear words.
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WWJD. He wouldn't offend anyone.
Actually Jesus offended a lot of people, especially the pharisee's and sadducee's. I think if something causes fellow Christians to stumble we should avoid it at all cost's as Paul said. I believe cussing is something we should strive not to do, I have dealt with this issue in my life so many times, I grew up cussing a lot, and it has been a real struggle to get it under control, but I have felt conviction from God to do so. Just my :2cents:
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I think that it's more important for a Christian, or for anyone, to have a positive attitude. If one has a positive attitude and uses swear words on occasion, I can't see anything that would hinder one from eudaimonia.
So you're calling Mike "the Mouth" Matteso a Christian because he thinks positive and can speak however he wants? :scratch:
I know you have loose interpretations of the Bible, but I'm pretty sure positive thinking will NOT get you into heaven.
Just FYI for everyone, cussing is a curse word. ;) That's what my teachers all used to say.
Other than that, I think my reputation would give you guys a good idea about how I feel about this subject.
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....also english curse words wyn
Caleb, Caleb, Caleb
you called?
The intent of what your saying is what really matters... if your are saying something with pure hatred then yes it is wrong if you are using it in shock or anger (ie slamming your finger in the door) is it really wrong?
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So you're calling Mike "the Mouth" Matteso a Christian because he thinks positive and can speak however he wants?
It's Matusow.
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It's not really a polite thing to do and it offends people. WWJD. He wouldn't offend anyone.
Jesus offended many people actually. However, I do agree with your main point even though it uses an overused cliche. Jesus did not use profanity. Our goal as Christians is sanctification, the journey of becoming like Christ. Our goal is to be able to present everyone complete, mature, or perfect in Christ. (Col 1:28) Before we do that in others we must first do it within ourselves. I do not see how cussing is moving us further down the process of sanctification. I do not see how cussing makes us more like Christ.
I feel as though that Col 3:8 is being taken simply on its own without looking at the entirety of what Paul is saying. In verses 5-9 Paul is describing the actions of a non regenerate(old) person. Verse ten, he begins his transition to what a regenerate(new) person looks like with his image of taking off the old and putting on the new, and in verses 12-17 he describes the regenerate(new) person. It seems very clear to me that through this discourse Paul has clearly defined cursing or coarse language, among other things, as something a non regenerate person participates in. If then, as Col 1:28 says, we are ever striving towards becoming complete in Christ as regenerate people, cussing should not be on our lips.
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I just don't cuss. It's not really a polite thing to do and it offends people. WWJD. He wouldn't offend anyone.
Well said. I hate it when people outright swear in public. Once I heard a guy just about yell the F word, and infront of children also.
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I'm not going to argue, just going to state my opinion on the matter.
I see cussing as okay if used appropriately and civily, and not just out of anger from the heart.
I have never, and will never cuss around the fairer sex. I have far too much respect for girls and they deserve to be treated with the upmost respect. It's sort of my "thing" that I'm known for at school. The majority of my friends are girls, I always pull their chair out for them, let them get food or anything first, and pretty much anything of the sort that relates to being a gentleman. It's not even how I was raised, it's my choice.
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I see cussing as okay if used appropriately and civily, ...
I have not read anything but the last few posts, but I find this statement to be completely contradictory. If you want to speak civily and appropriately, then don't cuss.
Just my :2cents:
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You're assuming that our definiteions of civil and appropriate are the same.
I'm using the terms in the sense that if someone were to say, have their foot ran over by a car accidently and they were to let a (instert curse here) slip out, I see that as alright. No one is perfect and we all make mistakes. Sometimes in the heat of the moments we act without thinking, which can lead to possibly anything.
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Bob is married to Sue. In the heat of the moment Bob hits Sue. Is that ok?
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I'm using the terms in the sense that if someone were to say, have their foot ran over by a car accidently and they were to let a (instert curse here) slip out, I see that as alright.
Cussing is a matter of conditioning. If my foot got run over by a car, I would say "Ouch." I may slip and say "I'm gonna sue you for every penny you're worth," but I would never cuss.
Now, realize that I say this after years of practice. I used to cuss horribly. But, I chose to leave that behind and I have not cussed now in over 15 years. However, my unsaved brother likes to pop in his wedding video when I visit, because he has a permanent record of me drunk and cussing like an idiot. I wasn't saved at the time, but my brother still uses it against me whenever I try to witness. The first time he showed me the video after I was saved was enough incentive for me to say "Never again."
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I see cussing as okay if used appropriately and civily, ...
I have not read anything but the last few posts, but I find this statement to be completely contradictory. If you want to speak civily and appropriately, then don't cuss.
Just my :2cents:
I think you're forgetting the element of social linguistic context here.
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I'm using the terms in the sense that if someone were to say, have their foot ran over by a car accidently and they were to let a (instert curse here) slip out, I see that as alright.
Cussing is a matter of conditioning. If my foot got run over by a car, I would say "Ouch." I may slip and say "I'm gonna sue you for every penny you're worth," but I would never cuss.
Now, realize that I say this after years of practice. I used to cuss horribly. But, I chose to leave that behind and I have not cussed now in over 15 years. However, my unsaved brother likes to pop in his wedding video when I visit, because he has a permanent record of me drunk and cussing like an idiot. I wasn't saved at the time, but my brother still uses it against me whenever I try to witness. The first time he showed me the video after I was saved was enough incentive for me to say "Never again."
Well then there you go. You're speaking from a bias that you've set due to your past. I do not curse often, but due to the outward influence of modern culture, everyone has heard cursing, and some get to the point where they curse without knowing.
Also keep in mind the age difference between myself and you, of course our views are going to be different. You grew up in a different time where cursing was not as heavily focused in society and was viewed differently. Now-a-days, every PG-13 movie curses quite a bit to make those who watch it wonder what they were thinking when they didn't make it R.
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Also keep in mind the age difference between myself and you, of course our views are going to be different. You grew up in a different time where cursing was not as heavily focused in society and was viewed differently. Now-a-days, every PG-13 movie curses quite a bit to make those who watch it wonder what they were thinking when they didn't make it R.
This is what I hear you saying: Its ok because more and more people are doing it.
The fact that movies which are today rated PG-13 were once rated R is evidence of the degradation of our American culture. Your standard for what is right should not be whether or not the culture finds it acceptable, your standard should be what Scripture says is acceptable.
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Also keep in mind the age difference between myself and you, of course our views are going to be different. You grew up in a different time where cursing was not as heavily focused in society and was viewed differently. Now-a-days, every PG-13 movie curses quite a bit to make those who watch it wonder what they were thinking when they didn't make it R.
This is what I hear you saying: Its ok because more and more people are doing it.
That's exactly what I'm saying. But you are putting words into my mouth, I myself only ever curse if I see it necessary to get across point or if I've just experienced a vast amount of pain and it slips out. But others curse because other do it, it has ALWAYS been that way. Why would anyone curse if they have never heard another do such? Most wouldn't even know what cursing is, had they of not heard someone else curse.
Another reason why I never post my opinion on these boards. You (in the general sense) are stuck in your little Christian world and can't argue reasonably without allowing your bias to show. Don't get me wrong, everyone is bias, but it should not be the basis of your argument. If you were arguing with an Atheist about this same topic and were to say "God says to guard your heart, to speak no evil". Well, do you really think an Atheist is going to care what our God says? No, which is why I wish that we could argue in a formal manner without letting the basis for a casual argument be "Well I believe...".
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your standard should be what Scripture says is acceptable.
When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her
Deuteronomy 25:11-12.
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Lol...warn Colin's Girlfriends
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That's exactly what I'm saying. But you are putting words into my mouth
I'm confused by this statement. If I have properly ascertained what you were saying, how is it that I have put words into your mouth?
You (in the general sense) are stuck in your little Christian world and can't argue reasonably without allowing your bias to show. Don't get me wrong, everyone is bias, but it should not be the basis of your argument.
That's absurd. God's Truth as the basis of my argument is the best basis to have.
I wish that we could argue in a formal manner without letting the basis for a casual argument be "Well I believe...".
I'm not arguing what I believe, I am arguing by showing God's Truth. I am putting forth Scripture, which is God's Truth. Are you saying that God is wrong?
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Colin bores me.
If you were arguing with an Atheist about this same topic and were to say "God says to guard your heart, to speak no evil". Well, do you really think an Atheist is going to care what our God says? No, which is why I wish that we could argue in a formal manner without letting the basis for a casual argument be "Well I believe...".
When I was teaching in the Virginia Beach Public Schools, I had a student who was swearing in class. I reported him and we eventually had a parent conference. The student's mother was an atheist who told us that she encourages swearing in her home, so she felt we had no right to stop him in school. My principal, who was an atheist homosexual, told the mother that the school's Code of Conduct specifically states that swearing is not allowed in school.
If your argument is that swearing is becoming more socially acceptable, then the Virginia Beach City Public Schools disagree with you, and I guarantee that they are not religiously motivated.
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Whenever you say "God says" or "I believe" you are showing your emotions are interfering with your judgment and you are therefor biased and discrediting yourself. If your going to casually debate over this know the facts and never let your emotions play a part...you should only be going by intelligent creditability. "I believe" is the worst thing you could use.
Yay logic class.
EDIT: instaposted with YMT oh wells
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Now YMT's argument is completely off subject that was a matter of bucking authority set by the board of counsel's conscience....it is irrelevant in my opinion to this argument.
Show me a kid under four who hasn't heard the H word or the D
word its inevitable they will hear it because society as a majorit accepts it now
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Now YMT's argument is completely off subject that was a matter of bucking authority set by the board of counsel's conscience....it is irrelevant in my opinion to this argument
Bias
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How is that biased?
I said in my opinion because I don't have any credibility to force it so yeah its bias...but I wasn't trying to put up a debate against it I was merely stating my opinion...Sean seemed to be debating...correct me if I'm wrong
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Whenever you say "God says" or "I believe" you are showing your emotions are interfering with your judgment and you are therefor biased and discrediting yourself. If your going to casually debate over this know the facts and never let your emotions play a part...you should only be going by intelligent creditability. "I believe" is the worst thing you could use.
I agree to a point. But all three (ethos, logos, pathos) are all important when persuading someone or convincing them. You can't just vomit informational facts, you must add in pathos or it's very dry and whoever you are arguing with is not going to give you as much recognition.
Oh and Logic was my favorite class Freshman year, just sayin'. It was the only class that year that I excelled in, besides Geometry.
YMT: That is a school system. I go to a Private Christian academy, and cursing is obviously not accepted in the least sense. By socially accepted I meant in the average "day out at the mall" setting. Everytime I walk around my mall, I hear random people cursing as if it's nothing. I can't stand it, it's not used appropriately.
Sean: You are arguing God's Truth. You must believe in God's Truth for you to argue for such. Therefore your bias as a Christian believer is the basis of your argument. I'm not talking about whether or not cursing is a sin (I don't believe it is, but even if it is, we have a God who is forgiving and merciful), I'm saying it's alright when used appropriately and never around girls.
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Caleb your amking an epic fail of an argument. Please quit repsonding as you are making people who have no problem with cussing look ridiculous. Your bias is having the bias that everyone else has a bias. You are presdisposed to think YMT has a bias, and thus are bias, and therefore you are no more legitimate to answer any questions than YMT.
As for your point, "God says" is not a terrible thing to use in the context of a debate with Christians if Scripture follows the use of "God says". It is, however, a terrible idea to claim that invoking God's mandate among Christians is bad argument. It is great argument within context. Obviously invoking biblical mandate among athiests is bad, but are we athiests?
As foir the main point, I personally have no problems with Christian cussers so to speak. I personally attempt not to use the words (and I would be a fool if I said I succeed), but I don't find a biblical mandate. In my opinion, the passages used to support a no cuss position have much more to do with things such as That's what she said jokes and other jokes of a sexual manner.
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YMT: That is a school system. I go to a Private Christian academy, and cursing is obviously not accepted in the least sense. By socially accepted I meant in the average "day out at the mall" setting. Everytime I walk around my mall, I hear random people cursing as if it's nothing. I can't stand it, it's not used appropriately.
You can't dismiss evidence because you want to. A public school system decided that swearing was not appropriate in school. Why would it not be acceptable if it is viewed okay by the public?
Also, if you walk down the beach in Virginia Beach, you will see signs posted that have the title of this thread with a big red circle and slash through the middle. The city decided that swearing was inappropriate in a public setting and that it was a deterrent to tourism. Why would they decide that if swearing was viewed as okay by the public?
Clearly even the general public views swearing as inappropriate. What is worse is that Christians spout out profanity in earshot of non-Christians who then view them as hypocrites. Why?
Because swearing is not okay to the general public.
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YMT: That is a school system. I go to a Private Christian academy, and cursing is obviously not accepted in the least sense. By socially accepted I meant in the average "day out at the mall" setting. Everytime I walk around my mall, I hear random people cursing as if it's nothing. I can't stand it, it's not used appropriately.
Also, if you walk down the beach in Virginia Beach, you will see signs posted that have the title of this thread with a big red circle and slash through the middle. The city decided that swearing was inappropriate in a public setting and that it was a deterrent to tourism. Why would they decide that if swearing was viewed as okay by the public?
Clearly even the general public views swearing as inappropriate...
Because swearing is not okay to the general public.
I find it funny how you think just because of a sign that says no cursing, that people aren't going to curse.
Stealing is against the law, yet it still happens.
Murder is against the law, yet it still happens.
You get my point.
Just because you stick a little red line through something and say it's bad doesn't mean people aren't going to do it anymore. In fact, to teenagers that is all the more reason to do it. Saying that the general public views swearing as inappropriate because of a sign and view of a certain state is illogical. It would be like me saying murder is not okay to the general public, which is FAR more serious than cursing (law enforcement wise, not as a sin), yet it still happens and will continue to happen everyday.
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Oh, I thought this thread was about whether cussing was okay, not whether it was occurring in the world. My mistake. Like I said earlier, I have not read this whole thread.
I apologize for the confusion.
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Swearing increases your level of pain tolerance.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20090902/New-research-reveals-that-swearing-can-increase-pain-tolerance.aspx (http://www.news-medical.net/news/20090902/New-research-reveals-that-swearing-can-increase-pain-tolerance.aspx)
Only superficially related to the topic, but an interesting factoid.
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Oh, I thought this thread was about whether cussing was okay, not whether it was occurring in the world. My mistake. Like I said earlier, I have not read this whole thread.
I apologize for the confusion.
Mature, very mature...
If you really think that's what I'm arguing about, then I would accuse you of just spittin your bias of the topic at me and not even reading my comments. I'm saying that it is generally accepted by today's society that cursing is okay. Do you not agree that more and more people are cursing? Is that not proof that it is becoming more acceptable? Which goes to prove my point that EVERYONE is influenced by those around them that curse, and it could lead them to possibly curse without thinking.
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Swearing increases your level of pain tolerance.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20090902/New-research-reveals-that-swearing-can-increase-pain-tolerance.aspx (http://www.news-medical.net/news/20090902/New-research-reveals-that-swearing-can-increase-pain-tolerance.aspx)
Only superficially related to the topic, but an interesting factoid.
Are you telling me if I constantly repeat X during my running for soccer tommorow, my pulled back muscle won't hurt as much? That's amazing.
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Swearing increases your level of pain tolerance.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20090902/New-research-reveals-that-swearing-can-increase-pain-tolerance.aspx (http://www.news-medical.net/news/20090902/New-research-reveals-that-swearing-can-increase-pain-tolerance.aspx)
Only superficially related to the topic, but an interesting factoid.
That's... interesting... haha.
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I'm saying that it is generally accepted by today's society that cursing is okay.
Maybe that's because more people are hurting today and they need to increase their pain threshold.
Are you telling me if I constantly repeat X during my running for soccer tommorow, my pulled back muscle won't hurt as much? That's amazing.
That would appear to be the claim made in the study.
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Cussing is unnecessary. By not cussing I have set myself apart from others I work around and it is noticed. I have said my share of cuss words in the past, but decided it was unnecessary and contradictory to being a good witness. I enjoy holding my tongue to a higher standard and having it be noticed. There are plenty of descriptive words in the English language to use instead of cussing. I have read the entire thread and see alot of posts attempting to justify cussing as socially acceptable and situationally useful, but those just come across as a cop-out rather than a legitimate reason to cuss. Many things that are socially acceptable (cussing) and situationally useful (condoms) do not line up with being a child of God. We are people set apart from the world and we are to be different and it is supposed to be noticed. Draw a line in the sand, get a backbone and start saying this is where I stand.....deal with it. Quit arguing/debating, whatever you want to call it, about whether cussing is a sin because is it simply a dog chasing its tail mentality at this point. Those who want to cuss will find justification for it and those who do not cuss are justified. I will agree to disagree with those who want to justify cussing and mine will always be the sounder position because I choose to bridle my tongue NOT find justification to loose it. Draw a line in the sand and be set apart from the world as a child of God. I will not argue this and I will not debate this. I am simply showing where I have drawn the line in the sand and have said "No more will I do this, I am different."
Godspeed,
Mike
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I'm saying it's alright when used appropriately
You said it would be ok in "the heat of the moment". I gave you another "heat of the moment" situation. If the situation I put forth is not ok, then neither is any other "heat of the moment" situation. You're basing your argument on what the world around us says. I'm basing mine on what God says in Scripture. Tell me which of us stands on rock and which of us stands on sand?
I'm saying that it is generally accepted by today's society that cursing is okay. Do you not agree that more and more people are cursing? Is that not proof that it is becoming more acceptable?
Just because something is acceptable by today's society doesn't mean it is right. The original post asked if cussing was right. God says it isn't. As a Christian, what more proof do you need that we shouldn't cuss?
Whenever you say "God says" or "I believe" you are showing your emotions are interfering with your judgment and you are therefor biased and discrediting yourself.
I disagree. My emotions have nothing to do with how I'm arguing. The fact that I am using God's standard as my own doesn't interfere with my own judgment, it shows that I am attempting to have my judgment be the same as God's on this issue. If agreeing with God discredits me then I will gladly be discredited.
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Mature, very mature...
??? I guess I am confused by your previous post, then.
I find it funny how you think just because of a sign that says no cursing, that people aren't going to curse.
Stealing is against the law, yet it still happens.
Murder is against the law, yet it still happens.
You get my point.
No, then, I do not get your point. Are you saying that murder and stealing are acceptable then, just like swearing?
Just because you stick a little red line through something and say it's bad doesn't mean people aren't going to do it anymore. In fact, to teenagers that is all the more reason to do it. Saying that the general public views swearing as inappropriate because of a sign and view of a certain state is illogical. It would be like me saying murder is not okay to the general public, which is FAR more serious than cursing (law enforcement wise, not as a sin), yet it still happens and will continue to happen everyday.
Again, the little red line means that it is not okay, which is what I thought we were debating.
Their is no heirarchy here. I agree that police may not enforce certain laws as much as others, but that does not determine right and wrong. Police rarely enforce shoplifting laws, but I would still argue that stealing is viewed as inappropriate to the general public, and is obviously wrong for Christians.
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Do you not agree that more and more people are cursing? Is that not proof that it is becoming more acceptable?
More and more people are kidnapping children, molesting them, and killing them.
More and more people are registered sex offenders.
More and more people are viewing child pornography.
More and more people are going on killing sprees before committing suicide.
More and more people are committing adultery.
More and more married teachers are having sex with their students.
The "more and more people" mentality is probably what got Sodom and Gomorrah into trouble.
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if someone were to say, have their foot ran over by a car accidently
Oddly enough, that happened to me (and I didn't cuss btw)
my brother still uses it against me whenever I try to witness.
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
Cussing is ...unnecessary and contradictory to being a good witness.
Again, notice how people who have been around long enough to know, have seen the truth of this.
Lawfuldog,
You are correct that I wouldn't try to convince an atheist to stop cussing by telling them that God doesn't like it. But this is a Christian forum and scripture is generally accepted as authoritative here (barring my buddy Colin of course). Know your audience. In this setting, Biblical truth isn't considered bias.
You are incorrect that society as a whole is getting more accepting of cussing if secular cities and school boards are banning it. And even if your younger generation is getting more accepting of it, that doesn't mean that they are accepting of it from people who claim to be Christians.
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Cussing is unnecessary. By not cussing I have set myself apart from others I work around and it is noticed. I have said my share of cuss words in the past, but decided it was unnecessary and contradictory to being a good witness. I enjoy holding my tongue to a higher standard and having it be noticed. There are plenty of descriptive words in the English language to use instead of cussing. I have read the entire thread and see alot of posts attempting to justify cussing as socially acceptable and situationally useful, but those just come across as a cop-out rather than a legitimate reason to cuss. Many things that are socially acceptable (cussing) and situationally useful (condoms) do not line up with being a child of God. We are people set apart from the world and we are to be different and it is supposed to be noticed. Draw a line in the sand, get a backbone and start saying this is where I stand.....deal with it. Quit arguing/debating, whatever you want to call it, about whether cussing is a sin because is it simply a dog chasing its tail mentality at this point. Those who want to cuss will find justification for it and those who do not cuss are justified. I will agree to disagree with those who want to justify cussing and mine will always be the sounder position because I choose to bridle my tongue NOT find justification to loose it. Draw a line in the sand and be set apart from the world as a child of God. I will not argue this and I will not debate this. I am simply showing where I have drawn the line in the sand and have said "No more will I do this, I am different."
Godspeed,
Mike
+1 :amen:
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Besides addressing this issue from a Scriptural context, which has been discussed already, think about these situations.
1. Would you cuss in front of your parents?
2. Would you cuss in front of a girl/guy you are interested in?
3. Would you cuss during an interview or a business transaction?
I know there are room for exceptions, but I believe it is best to avoid cussing. I have only cussed twice in my life. I said two curse words back during my sophomore year in high school, and I have always regretted that moment, as it greatly hurt my witness to the three non-believers in the room. I have also had the chance to share my faith on a number of occasions because I don't cuss. I would rather have a chance to make a positive impact for the Kingdom than potentially sabotage a chance to make an impact for the Kingdom.
Kirk
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1. Would you cuss in front of your parents?
Curse words frequent casual conversations with my father.
Would you cuss in front of a girl/guy you are interested in?
I'm only interested in girls, but typically a girl who would have a problem with me cursing I wouldn't date. It's a sign of immaturity, in my eyes.
Would you cuss during an interview or a business transaction?
Depends on whether or not they curse first. After they curse first, not-overdone swearing on the same level of "badness wordiness" is actually a good strategy.
To the scriptural arguments, I say that you're making scripture say what you want it to say. There were not words that were considered "bad" and "unusable" at that time.
I'm also guessing none of you guys have spent much time in England or Ireland. Cursing is just the way of talking there.
Colossians 3:8
"But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips."
Ephesians 5:3-5
"But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."
People give words meanings. Words also have many different meanings. If you are using a curse word in a non-dirty context, you are not using filthy language. If you use a curse word in a filthy context, then you are going against this, not because you cursed, but because you used filthy language. The F-bomb only has a sexual meaning when used to denote sex, in itself it is just an casually used adjective similar to "uber".
Ephesians 4:29
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."
Once again, it is not the words themselves that build people up but the "use" of the words. Curse words can be used to bring people up, for sure. I don't see any problem with saying "I _ love that song" and don't see why saying "I _ hate you" is any worse than saying "I hate you".
I definitely don't think there is a problem with cutting back on cursing. I personally cursed quite often in casual conversation by senior year of high school (just because everyone I hung around did, I even accidentally dropped one in a casual conversation with my principal, who I don't think noticed). When I came to Trevecca, I stopped cursing (because uber-conservative Freshman would giggle, which shows how sheltered that school is). There have been a few words that have stuck in my vocabulary as the word I go to first for a specific meaning. A lot of these are British words. Since I've transferred from Trevecca to a much better and bigger college (one where dancing isn't considered a sin), I can imagine that my use of swear words will unintentionally increase, depending on who I'm around.
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I don't understand why it's so hard for Christians to understand that living a Christian life means surrendering our rights. Jesus Himself said to count the cost (Luke 14: 27-29). We are to be in the world, but not of the world (John 17: 15-17); we are told not to conform to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds (Romans 12: 2), and that the world would hate us (John 15: 18-20). The world is not going to hate us if we're exactly like them. The word "Christian" literally means "Christ-like". If you're not willing to die to yourself and follow Christ, living the way He wants us to live, then you have no business calling yourself a Christian. That's the long and short of it. Joshua would tell you to choose whom you will serve (Joshua 24: 15). God is not fire insurance. If you are to be His child, then we must forsake the world and live a holy life. There's no getting around that. If you don't want to live as Christ commanded, then Christ is not for you. C.S. Lewis wrote, "If we insist on keeping Hell (or even earth), we shall not see Heaven; if we accept Heaven we shall not be able to retain even the smallest and most intimate souvenirs of Hell" (The Great Divorce, Preface, p. VIII).
The Christian life is as disciplined a life as anyone can imagine.
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Would you cuss in front of a girl/guy you are interested in?
I'm only interested in girls, but typically a girl who would have a problem with me cursing I wouldn't date. It's a sign of immaturity, in my eyes.
+1
It's all up to situation. They're just words and carry no obvious physical damage. YMT: If your telling me Public schools hate cursing...if I walk into one now I'd bet as much money as I have I'd hear at least 5+ being used. It is Socially accepted
ButI also agree with YMT not to fall in the "More and more people thing" although I would still say there is no issue with cursing
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Interestingly, there seems to be a huge divide based around age here. Nearly everyone That I would consider in the "older crowd" (25 and over) seems to be pretty sure that while cussing may be permissible, it is not beneficial and should be avoided in all but the most limited circumstances if at all. But nearly everyone in the younger crowd (read 25 and younger) seem to believe that it seems to be no realy big deal and if anything there are only minor limitations to when and where you should cuss.
This is real interesting and I wonder why this issue is different than others. In other issues there seems to be a divide basedon on reasons other than age because we tend to see people of similar ages lining up on both sides of the positions, but this seems to be dividing along age lines and it strikes me as odd.
Nothing else, I was just making that observation.
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maybe because the older group is used to their childhood being strictly against cursing where as the younger group is more seasoned to it(seasoned was the wrong word)
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...cussing is not a sin, but is more of a cultural/lingual isuue. ...I believe Christians should avoid swearing because it gives bad impressions. However, when you're alone in a garage or whatever, I don't think God will care if you let out a few harmless swear words.
My opinion seems to fit more with the "older crowd" grouping. (Maybe that's because I don't hang around with people in my school very much. :P)
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Kirk is 25 now? :scratch:
lol....I'm just kidding with you Matt, but I've already noticed the difference too and I have a pretty good theory on it. And I'm sure it's not because of Caleb's theory:
maybe because the older group is used to their childhood being strictly against cursing where as the younger group is more seasoned to it(seasoned was the wrong word)
Here are some highlights of my theory:
1. Like Prof U. stated earlier, the older crowd has more wisdom and life experiences which give more accuracy to the argument.
2. The younger crowd (with a few exceptions) are trying to show how "mature" they are through being either adult-like (which they view cursing as) or "cool" (emulating stars of TV, music, & movies) which actually shows their immaturity IMO.
3. A product of governing themselves (read: latch key) because of absentee parents (dual job or uninterested) which Dobson is saying is a growing trend.
As far as cursing being on the rise, I hate to break it to some of you but this is not a new phenomenon. Where do you think the cliche' "cursing like a sailor" came from. I've heard my fair share of curse words and yet my vocabulary always stood out for the lack of it. It actually became a witnessing tool. A couple people actually knew I was a Christian before every getting to know me because they knew my vocabulary was different.
As far as the witness tool: here is an example. While working in a secular environment, several people got together to "bribe" me because in 2 years I had never cursed though they had seen me mad several times. They offered $20 for a "minor" word, and $100 for the F-bomb. They were serious, and when I refused they wanted to know why. I told them.
Cursing is a heart condition. What is in the heart comes out of the mouth. Be mad at me if you want, but I would encourage some of you to take an inventory of your heart and motives. Listen to the wisdom of your "elders" and not your peers.
Proverbs 22:17-19 (NIV)
Pay attention and listen to the sayings of the wise;
apply your heart to what I teach,
[18] for it is pleasing when you keep them in your heart
and have all of them ready on your lips.
[19] So that your trust may be in the Lord,
I teach you today, even you.
Proverbs 2:12-15 (NIV)
Wisdom will save you from the ways of wicked men,
from men whose words are perverse,
[13] who leave the straight paths
to walk in dark ways,
[14] who delight in doing wrong
and rejoice in the perverseness of evil,
[15] whose paths are crooked
and who are devious in their ways
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The answer is that time is not a constant, and that the universe is expanding. If I were to send a radio signal from the centre of the universe at creation, and then send a second one a second later, they would reach a given point on the outer expansion far more than a second apart. Therefore, a logical explaination that allows for both a literal interpretation of Genesis and acceptance of scientific discoveries is that the days in at least some of the creation account are measured from that central point. There, only days would have passed. Elsewhere in the universe, time does not follow the same path. It is faster, because the universe is expanding.
Pol, this idea seems to be based on a rather fundamental misunderstanding about the expansion of the universe.
The expansion of the universe is an isotropic expansion of the underlying fabric of space-time. Put simply, there is no such thing as "the centre of the universe" or a "central point," because the actual essence of space-time is expanding. Adding back a bit--every point of the universe could be considered the center as there are no privileged reference frames. The upshot--either way of looking at it--is that there is not a physical location that would experience a significantly slower rate of time than we do on Earth due to the expansion of the universe. Scientifically, it would be simpler to just use special relativity and claim that the author of Genesis was traveling near the speed of light for the the first six days rather than invoking general relativity and the expansion of the universe (which don't server your purposes anyway).
This also raises a couple of related questions. If there is no such thing as a privileged center of the universe, why would the author of Genesis measure time from there? Why not just start with the Earth which is where you need to end up anyway and also has the added benefit of actually being mentioned in Scripture? Lastly, if you are going to consider the author's view point as part of your interpretive schema, why not switch to a revelatory day interpretation of Genesis 1 (or something similar)?
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While my opinions line up more with the "older crowd," (you'll notice that I was always arguing against a "NEVER curse" standpoint while trying to point out that it is only rarely advisable), I disagree with SS's analysis of why the split seems to be based on age. Sort of.
1. Like Prof U. stated earlier, the older crowd has more wisdom and life experiences which give more accuracy to the argument.
While I agree that our elders are wiser and should be respected, there is also another factor coming into play. When they were our age, cursing was highly frowned upon and outrageous behavior. Today, not so much. Don't chalk it all up to lack of wisdom; it is largely a cultural thing too.
2. The younger crowd (with a few exceptions) are trying to show how "mature" they are through being either adult-like (which they view cursing as) or "cool" (emulating stars of TV, music, & movies) which actually shows their immaturity IMO.
I agree 100%. Whenever I see little teeny-boppers or even college kids cursing up a storm, I just laugh my butt off.
3. A product of governing themselves (read: latch key) because of absentee parents (dual job or uninterested) which Dobson is saying is a growing trend.
I agree that this kind of things leads to problems, but I don't really think it applies in this discussion because the people here seem to not fit that demographic for the most part. Colin thinks swearing is the bee's knees, and he's got one of the best dads I know. And he's still married to Colin's mother.
Cursing should be avoided, just as lying should be avoided. STRONGLY avoided. So should killing. However, if you are unable to kill in self-defense or in the defense of an innocent, you've taken it too far. The same sort of principle applies to cursing and lying. I saved someone's life once because I rarely curse, but am willing to when the need arises. He was standing in the soccer field a ways away from me, and I saw an adder gliding toward him. He did not. I yelled at him to move, and he asked why. So I yelled for him to move his ....... ... and he hopped to. He later told me that he knew I was super cereal because I never swear, and that's what made him move so fast.
That's probably a once-in-a-lifetime fluke occurrence of when it's wrong to not swear, but for those every once in a while, you need to be open to it. But if you're dropping sentence enhancers every third word or cursing when you get hurt, you're WAY over the fine line.
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Here's another point of view. Would you say something bad around a little kid. No probably not.
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thats a different situation of morals
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As I've consistently said, no, I would not do that. Unless there was a dire need for the kid to react NOW.
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I saw an adder gliding toward him. He did not. I yelled at him to move, and he asked why. So I yelled for him to move his ....... ... and he hopped to. He later told me that he knew I was super cereal because I never swear, and that's what made him move so fast.
Classic example of a time cussing was NOT necessary. If he didn't move at first and asked why, you could say, "Move your _____ ___!" or "I see a snake!" The second would equally motivate someone to move quickly, it is faster to say, communicates more clearly what the danger is, and doesn't require cussing.
It's all up to situation.
Situation ethics ftl.
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of course no one listens to my advice.
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As a member of the "under 25" crowd, I can say that it is very easy, especially for my generation, to fall into the habit of profanity. I was raised to never cuss (under threat of soap in my mouth even) but after four years in a public high school, and three more at a public University, heightened exposure to profanity has definitely affected the way I speak. Whether it's to "fit in", for comedic effect, or for no conceivable reason at all, I have found myself using profanity far too often.
I don't believe that it is necessarily a sin, unless said in anger/spite, but I also believe it is dangerous to make a habit of it. I do remember a time when I said a swear word (albeit a "mild" one--found in the KJV) in front of an agnostic friend. He was surprised that I said that, because he knew my values, and didn't think I would say something like that. I quickly apologized. He said that it was no problem, as he uses far worse words than that regularly, but I said that it was important to me and I should not have said that.
All that said, I think it would be wise for everyone to remember to think carefully about what you speak. I recently read James, there's a lot of great stuff in there about the tongue. Whether or not using this or that word is a sin, cussing is never good for building others up, and it can obviously lead to division. I obviously can't tell everyone to avoid it completely without being a hypocrite, as I still struggle quite a bit. But I can say that when I hear other Christians using profanity like it's nothing, it doesn't help me at all.
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I don't mind harsh language in movies, I use it in my scripts when a certain character would naturally talk that way, and I will occasionally use a word or two myself. However, I've found that a frequent use of profanity is generally nothing more than a failure of vocabulary. The sinfulness of the words themselves or the motivations behind them is debatable, but if nothing else keep in mind that cursing usually makes you look like an idiot. You'll be hard pressed to find intelligent men in academic circles who swear like a sailor; well-read and well-educated people have a much wider pool of verbal resources to draw from and thus rarely feel the need to resort to some of the more vulgar curses.
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maybe because the older group is used to their childhood being strictly against cursing where as the younger group is more seasoned to it(seasoned was the wrong word)
FWIW, my family cusses. That was why I had such a problem before I was saved. My brother shows the video as kind of an equalizer since he knows I don't cuss any more.
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The younger crowd cusses more because we're in more pain from having to listen to all the old geezers go on about their childhood. ;)
Just my opinion based on MJB's awesome study. :)
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1 peter 2:16
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I personally try to make it a habit to avoid cussing/swearing/whatever you want to call it. First of all, I don't want to offend my Christian bretheren who think it's a horrible offense to God. Secondly, I do want the unsaved folks I'm friends with to see something different about me, and that's an effective way to do it. I agree with ProfessorAlstad that avoiding certain words is difficult, especially when people around you use them all the time.
Now having said that, I do want to say that I'm not going to condemn people like Pol who use certain words in certain situations. In fact, I've let some (mild) words slip myself when sufficiently annoyed. I used to be mega-hardcore against any form of cussing, especially from Christians, because I consider it to be a poor witness. However, these days, I do understand that sometimes when you're angry, it's a form of release to use a "bad word". Personally, I like to use made up words as subsitutes, especially those from popular TV shows (ala Battlestar Galactica and Firefly). I find that it achieves the same effect, and it gives you a pop culture reference to use at the same time. :P Again, cussing is something I try to avoid, but I certainly cannot condemn those who do it on occasion. Those "Christians" who do it all the time, however, are just idiots. I have no tolerance for that sort of behavior, as it does nothing to further the cause of the gospel.
Pretty much the only thing that Yahweh Himself condemns is taking His name in vain (and His name isn't "god", btw), so as long as you're not doing that, or just spouting off obscenities because you think it's "cool", I have no basis for condemning your language.
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Well, did God put any exceptions on lying? Absolutely not! Let me point you to a few Scriptures which will, unless you hold firm as can be to your view, change your mind for sure:
Proverbs 6:16-19
These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are and abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
So in the list of abominations to the Lord, two of them are lying-a lying tongue, and a false witness that speaks lies, which are really the same thing. How about this one, when Jesus was talking about what defiles you, rather than what you eat:
Matthew 15:19-20
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Here we see that false witness (which is lying, mind you) defiles a man, and I believe in another Gospel account it says that it makes you unacceptable to God.
I do not recall the verse, but in one Gospel account Jesus even says that lying is the Devil's language, and those who lie are talking in the language of their Father, the Devil. Does that not convince you that lying, no matter what the circumstances, is a sin? Even if you could lie to rescue a friend from danger or death, you shouldn't, because if God wanted to He could move Heaven and Earth to rescue them.
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this thread is provocative
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NotW666, didn't we just have this discussion? Why the necropost?
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Ah, sorry about that...didn't see we had already cleared that up. :-[
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...I see that as alright. No one is perfect and we all make mistakes.
Acknowledging it as a mistake demonstrates that you actually do NOT think it is all right to curse. What this implies instead is that it is wrong to curse, but all right to do the wrong thing because you're not thinking.
I would consider acting without thinking to be a potentially dangerous thing, and not something I would encourage or condone. I understand that it happens but I'm not going to say that makes it all right.
I would be very careful about saying anything is "all right" just because it happens whether we like it or not.
Additionally, saying that it's okay to say in private something we would not say in public also betrays our convictions. If it's not something you want someone to hear you say, it's not something you should be saying anyway, public or not. The only difference is that you want other people to think you're not the kind of person who would talk that way, when in fact the way you talk alone says you are. Character is who we are when no one else is watching us.
A lot of these arguments sound a lot less like saying these words are okay to use, and a lot more like rationalizing the use of words we know are inappropriate.
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Saying that we all make mistakes and are helpless to change is untrue. We have all come short of the glory of God because we were born into sin from Adam and Eve. If we couldn't help but sin, then repentance wouldn't be required.
Not saying that The Schaef said that we are helpless, but others were saying that and it seemed good to point this out.
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For the record a False Witness is a far more socially-destructive thing than a simple lie. I believe them both to be wrong, but they are fairly different.
False witness applies to the Biblical judicial system, in which two witness were required for the conviction of a crime. A False Witness could cause extreme social decline on top of the simple act of lying, causing such things as an unjust death penalty, etc.
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to end this:
Profanity is a sin, PERIOD.
any questions? read the bible and you'll get your answers there
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Your ignorance and oblivion astounds me.
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i'm not ignorant i just speak the truth.
i'v been taught to not swear even though i do sometimes online
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Enough.