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Anywhooo.  here is my take on the word "Fool"

First of all, this phrase comes in the context of Jesus making radical re-interpretations of the law such as You have heard it said.....I tell you....
I am not so sure that some of these should be interpreted literally in every case, but that is not really my argument.  I only bring it up because I think we should conisder the fact that these extremes are being painted for a reason and it may not be for literal interpretations only.

Of course those who read every word in the bible as literal are going to take issue with that statement.  I know.  I also know your argument so you dont need to re-hash it all here.

second, this passage (Sermon on the mount) is about Jesus trying to get people to understand the "spirit" of the law and not be hung up on the literal interpretation.  In this context, someone taking every word literally to come up with a new commandment (ie. dont call people "fools" ) seems somewhat backward to me.

Third, what is the real purpose of Jesus saying this commandment?  is it really to get people to stop calling people fools?  or is it to get us to consider the heart when we talk about people who are made in the image of God?  IF the latter then I can say fool as long as I am not violating the spirit of the command (value people as created imago dei)  I can call people a fool if I am just playing with them, or I can call them a fool respectfully, claiming their ideas are foolish, but they themselves are not.  either way, the word fool itslef is not the problem, but the heart behind it.

What do yo uthink?

First of all, our God is a God of absolutes. The Bible should always, always be taken literally. If a passage in the Bible is meant to be taken figuratively, God will make it clear that this is so. If you look at the Bible any other way, you'll start getting into, "hm, I think I llike this, this, and this, but I don't like that, so it must be false," which will ultimately make the Bible meaningless, and make Christianity a man-based religion.

Calling someone a fool is making a judgement, something which God tells us not to do to others. That "fool" has a plan for his life that is no less important than the plan God has for your own, and is a sinful human being with feelings just like you, which is why calling someone a fool is sin. When the Bible says, "But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell," he means just that, much like a child stealing a cookie from the cookie jar will be in danger of the fire of hell. Luckily, the name-caller, the cookie-stealer, and even the mass murderer have all been redeemed by God's grace.

I find it interesting that it seems like God puts the most emphasis on His commandments which seem the least important to us. God says, "don't steal," and we all understand that - we know it's bad to steal, he doesn't really have to expound on that. But when God says, "obey your Father and Mother," well, that might take a little more explanation.

Of course those who read every word in the bible as literal are going to take issue with that statement.  I know.  I also know your argument so you dont need to re-hash it all here.

I thought I heard you calling for me

Actually my position is slightly more nuanced than that.  I believe that we should take the Bible literally unless that causes it to contradict another part of the Bible being taken literally.  In those rare cases, one or both instances must be figurative.

But anyway back to your original question.  I think that calling someone a "fool" (or for that matter any other name like "idiot", "moron", "liar", etc.) is wrong.  I do think it comes across as judging a person instead of judging their actions.  I have no problem with saying that something someone did was "foolish", but that doesn't mean that we should judge their overall character to be a "fool".  To call someone a "fool" is to insult them.  To say their action is "foolish" is to criticize their behavior (hopefully for the purpose of improvement).

But how many times does proverbs say...The wise man does such and such...But the fool does....

Does that mean the the author of Proverbs was sinning in all of these instances?  Every time I do something the "Fool" would do, the author is clearly calliing me a "fool" as well?

First of all, our God is a God of absolutes.

 I agree...to a point.  His absolutes are not limited by my abolutes.  My interpretation of his absolutes is not to be confused for what he really holds as absolute..is that absolutely clear?

And this is the problem.  What I say is absolute (or what I interpret as an absolute from God) may be different from others.  I do not believe in a literal 24/7 day creation and I believe that the text in hebrew makes that absolutely clear.  Others would say that the story of creation HAS to be taken literal.  that it is an absolute...


So which is Absolutely Absolute and which is kinda sorta absolute?

Prov 10:27 says that "The fear of the LORD adds length to life, but the years of the wicked are cut short."  And yet if we read the story of Cain and Abel, the opposite happened. 

You are misinterpreting the scripture.  It doesn't say that the wicked will live shorter than someone who has the fear of the Lord.  Who's to say that Abel's life would not have been shorter if he had not feared the Lord.  And who's to say that Cain's life wasn't cut short.  It's all relative and depends on your perspective.  Many people struggling to have God find them trip up on this concept all the time: why does God let an innocent child die yet let a very wicked person live into their 80's?

Ironically, it is those that fear the Lord who understand this and are not bothered by dieing at a young age or seeing a wicked person live many years.

lol not by me.  I have no reason to flame people...yet 

Quote from: crustpope on March 05, 2010, 01:11:55 PM

But how many times does proverbs say...The wise man does such and such...But the fool does....

First of all, I believe that God wrote Proverbs (as well as the rest of the Bible), and God is the one person who actually has the authority to judge people's overall character.  So if God wants to call someone a "fool", then He can get away with that

I gotta say Mark, this is a pretty weak argument.  The bible was inspired by God, but it was written by men.  so someones hand wrote that passage, does that mean that it is bad to call someone a fool...unless god tells you to?

Those who fear the Lord do live a longer life...are we forgetting heaven. Those who don't fear the Lord do have a shorter life considering they experience the second death that believers do not experience...thank God!

To support Mark's idea a bit, Proverbs is God's peeling back man's actions, choices, words, and intentions and showing us what kind of heart that comes from. If God judges someone as a fool, he has that right since they are in subjection to him. No man is in subjection to me ultimately so I lack that right. I do think however that Jesus like many if not all of his teachings is concerned about your inner world which bubbles over and produces outward actions. Jesus quite often warns people of actions that are getting them close to danger eternally... (i.e. warns the Pharisees they are dangerously close to grieving the Holy Spirit which is also an interesting topic for discussion if this one is magically agreed upon as we all roll up in one Accord!   )

I'm just surprised someone hasn't posted a Mr. T picture yet...

I'd like to say now that I feel a flame war coming.

Considering that all of the people disagreeing are good friends, I don't think so.

The bible was inspired by God, but it was written by men.  so someones hand wrote that passage, does that mean that it is bad to call someone a fool...unless god tells you to?

We do have slightly different perspectives on the extent of God's "inspiration" of the Bible.  However, I would say that if God told Solomon to write that someone was a "fool", or told a prophet to tell someone that they were a "fool", that it would be ok.  In that case, they are writing or speaking FOR God in a special sense.  You and I do not speak for God in that way, and therefore shouldn't call people names.

Quote from: BubbleBoy on March 05, 2010, 02:07:50 PM

I'd like to say now that I feel a flame war coming.

A flame war in a discussion about insulting someone is about as ironic/hypocritical as you can get... seeing as a flame war implies insulting the other people.

That was kind of the point.

I also figured that if I said that, I might be able to prevent a flame war, but it seems this was unnecessary anyway.

I think it is a sin, because it is a negative judgement, which God tells us not not make.

And if that isn't enough, I think anything that makes you i love you is probably sin.

as we insult people we insult the image of God?

I think that this is correct, but I would say that calling someone a "fool" is insulting them, and is therefore wrong.