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Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 28, 2009, 11:17:49 AM

Quote from: crustpope on May 28, 2009, 09:49:29 AM

I tend to reside somewhere in the middle with most arguments.

Pick a side of the road, Matt.  Driving down the middle is illegal

Plus:   "You get squashed like a grape"


2 cookies for who can get that quote!

I actually think Matt's stance is the most logical stance for a believer to have (I was trained in the tradition he comes from); I just tend to deconstruct things to extremes because, to me, they are more interesting that way.

Quote from: crustpope on May 28, 2009, 09:49:29 AM

There is at least a 10 year gap between Matthew and Luke regarding the Birth of Jesus.  One of them HAS to give with regards to Historicity because these two accounts CANNOT be reconciled (although I am sure someone will try)

It is possible that Quirinius was in charge of an earlier census in Syria during the time of Herod's reign as described here.

That's correct.  He was likely something of a co-governor, as Herod didn't like the dude that was running the place at the time.

Ernest Martin in Chronos, Kairos, Christos: Nativity and Chronological Studies Presented to Jack Finegan, Jerry Vardaman and Edwin Yamauchi, eds. Eisenbrauns:1989, pg 90:
"A Latin inscription found in 1764 about one-half mile south of the ancient villa of Quintilius Varus (at Tivoli, 20 miles east of Rome) states that the subject of the inscription had twice been governor of Syria. This can only refer to Quintilius Varus, who was Syrian governor at two different times. Numismatic evidence shows he ruled Syria from 6 to 4 B.C., and other historical evidence indicates that Varus was again governor from 2 B.C. to A.D. I. Between his two governorships was Sentius Saturninus, whose tenure lasted from 4 to 2 B.C. Significantly, Tertullian (third century) said the imperial records showed that censuses were conducted in Judea during the time of Sentius Saturninus. (Against Marcion 4:7). Tertullian also placed the birth of Jesus in 3 or 2 B.C. This is precisely when Saturninus would have been governor according to my new interpretation. That the Gospel of Luke says Quirinius was governor of Syria when the census was taken is resolved by Justin Martyr's statement (second century) that Quirinius was only a procurator (not governor) of the province (Apology 1:34). In other words, he was simply an assistant to Saturninus, who was the actual governor as Tertullian stated."
 
The second option is favored by William Ramsey (NBD, s.v. "Quirinius"):
"The possibility that Quirinius may have been governor of Syria on an earlier occasion (*Chronology of the NT) has found confirmation in the eyes of a number of scholars (especially W. M. Ramsay) from the testimony of the Lapis Tiburtinus (CIL, 14. 3613). This inscription, recording the career of a distinguished Roman officer, is unfortunately mutilated, so that the officer’s name is missing, but from the details that survive he could very well be Quirinius. It contains a statement that when he became imperial legate of Syria he entered upon that office ‘for the second time’ (Lat. iterum). The question is: did he become imperial legate of Syria for the second time, or did he simply receive an imperial legateship for the second time, having governed another province in that capacity on the earlier occasion?...The wording is ambiguous. Ramsay held that he was appointed an additional legate of Syria between 10 and 7 bc, for the purpose of conducting the Homanadensian war, while the civil administration of the province was in the hands of other governors, including Sentius Saturninus (8-6 bc), under whom, according to Tertullian (Adv. Marc. 4. 19), the census of Lk. 2:1ff. was held."

Although I realize you won't be impressed, I'm constantly amazed that legitimate solutions can be given for every historical objection.

Well, naturally, it's always easier to look for just the right nit to tear down someone else viewpoint over trivialities, than to take the effort to form a belief of your own and subject it to anything approaching the same level of critique.  All the satisfaction of being "right", none of the risk of being wrong.  A real win-win.

Well, naturally, it's always easier to look for just the right nit to tear down someone else viewpoint over trivialities, than to take the effort to form a belief of your own and subject it to anything approaching the same level of critique.  All the satisfaction of being "right", none of the risk of being wrong.  A real win-win.

Deconstructionalism is for purposes of elucidation, not for the satisfaction of being right. If you mean "belief" as in "worldview", post-modern or existentialist would be a possible description.

Deconstructionalism is for purposes of elucidation, not for the satisfaction of being right.

I might believe that if I thought you believed you were giving any clarification to anyone.  Your deconstructions are doing exactly and only that: tearing things down.

This topic has gone so far off course, I think it would do us all some good to get back to what thestrongangel asked us.  And I don't think he asked us to argue

By the way Colin, sorry for being a little rude back there.  No hard feelings, right?

Tearing things down or taking them apart to see how/if they work?

I also have yet to see you make any observations about if/how something works.  I have only ever seen you proclaim something (effectively) not worth the attention of an intelligent person.  Never mind that it is intelligent people who drew those conclusions to begin with.

Even that - which is little more than a left-handed compliment - is more credit than I've ever seen you give a point with which you disagreed.

My dictionary defines a forum as an assembly for discussing issues of interest, not for dismissing arguments without even bothering with the discussion.  I'm not sure what you thought "this is a forum" was supposed even to add to the discussion of this problem.

It's not so much for my sake; I just think that people should be given a fair shake.  It's infuriating when people do it to me, and I don't much like it when I see it done to other people, either.

We don't always agree but we have different perspectives for a reason, and we're not all dumb blind sheep, and there might be something to be learned by listening.  As someone who has brought up bizarre topics for no better reason than to give yourself a mental exercise, I would think you of all people would appreciate that.

Ban.

Quote from: soul seeker on May 28, 2009, 12:05:44 PM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 28, 2009, 11:17:49 AM

Quote from: crustpope on May 28, 2009, 09:49:29 AM

I tend to reside somewhere in the middle with most arguments.

Pick a side of the road, Matt.  Driving down the middle is illegal

Plus:   "You get squashed like a grape"


2 cookies for who can get that movie quote!

The Karate Kid, MR. Miyagi talking to Daniel-san.  Can my cookies be Chocolate Chip they are my favorite?

Well Done!!!    I thought it was forgotten or skipped!!!  If I ever bump into you at a tournament, then I will offer my wife's famous chocolate Chip cookies (or store bought if she's not around).

I don't know about world famous...but they are famous with my youth groups and leaders!