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No, it means that almost no teenager believes in an absolute right or wrong.  Many teenagers see morality ona sliding scale that they get to shift depending upon where they are or who they are with.  It is one of the most frustrating things I have had to endure in ministry.  Kids have one mask for chruch group and another for school.

Quote from: soul seeker on March 12, 2009, 11:36:05 AM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 11, 2009, 10:09:50 AM

Thoughts, disagreements, concurrences?

I will probably read it again, and break down some different points that stand out to me.  In short, it got me to thinking and reflecting on my ministry which I think is important.  I don't agree with a lot of it, and after talking to my wife, a former youth, and Pastor...I think he made some assumptions based on his personal experiences, feelings, and life.  He is disenchanted with the evangelical church and therefore it looks like he feels the need to bash it.

Soul Seeker, when you break down the different points, could you comment on the author's second reason...

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2. We Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught.

Specifically I would like your thoughts on the claim that our youth "know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it." Obviously this doesn't mean every young person, but a recent Barna survey found that only 1/2 of 1% of 18-23 year olds have a Biblical Worldview.
In terms of the whole "living out the gospel" theme, the sad fact is that most non-Christians don't see Christians doing that. Once again, according to the Barna Group among young non-Christians the two most common perceptions is that Christianity is judgmental (87%) and hypocritical (85%).

I don't have time to fully explain this out or expand upon my reasoning, but I would like to comment right now and go more in depth tomorrow.  I just heard on KLove that in this same survey said that adults are only 9%, so this is not becoming exclusive to the younger audience.  The reason I mention this is that I think that it is a contributing factor.  It's not getting taught because most adults don't believe it themselves.  I don't think there is one easy solution here...I think it is a lot of X factors that are contributing to the problem.  Let me see how many fires I can light before I comment more tomorrow.   IMO, here are some contributing factors.  Three jump out right away off the cuff, and I will contemplate it more tonight and write tomorrow.
   1.  "Poor" Parenting:  This manifests itself in different ways that brings about the same results of no root in the Word or Absolutes.  Inconsistent parenting (parents who undermine each other with rules) teaches a precedent of sliding scale mentality as crustpope mentioned above.  There is no consistency in rules.  -or- Smothering or Helicopter Parents is another term that is used.  These are parents who do everything for their kids including feeling out college applications, helping with projects, etc.  The kids don't learn how to think for themselves or to work through things critically. -or- Finally the Uninvolved or Bailout Parent.  These kids don't learn responsibility and ultimately they define their own rules.
   2.  The indoctrination of Evolution:  It irritates me to know end that the THEORY of Evolution is taught as FACT.  That's beside the point...I see the result as generations of people being encouraged to explain away the supernatural with reasoning and science.  There is no need for a supreme being because nature is continually improving itself.  The logic continues to follow along the flow that God is not needed anywhere in the process.  By questioning God in one area of life (nature/science), then why not in other areas of life (morality). 
   3.  The American Consumeristic Buffet God:  Our society is very consumer oriented like that of the ancient Roman Empire.  However, we "have" this "awesome God" that we can pick and choose what aspects he really does or doesn't have like a buffet.  God is put into a "box" and is ultimately what we "make" Him.  True, Americans don't make little wood or iron idols, but they are making an idol nonetheless.  People want a God who approves of everything they do.  Repentance, Sin, and Remorse are almost nonexistent terms.
   These are but 3 contributing factors in my opinion.  There are more, but I'll let you guys read this and not bore you with anymore wall of texts.  I wish we could talk about this in person MJB because it is an issue near and dear to my heart, and I'm glad that you pointed this article out.  I hope to reverse this trend.

I disagree that traditional ethics are impossible or irrational.  They usually become traditions because it was deemed wise to cement them, and there's little reason those same principles would not continue to apply.  Because an answer is not close at hand does not mean that no reason exists, or that reason is automatically invalid.  It just means someone is going to have to go to a more informed source for their answers.

It is well to ask questions and seek valid reasoning, but this is also a mask behind which many young people question or dismiss authority simply for the sake of doing so.  In particular, it has become chic to do so in order to appear smarter than one truly is, to question everything simply to give the impression that person is wise enough to ask the questions no one dares ask.  Sometimes no one dares ask them because they have been adequately answered, or because they are inane.  One example of this is the 9/11 conspiracy nuts, who claim to be the only ones not buying the company line, and talking about how steel can't melt and blah blah blah.  Like you guys were the only ones smart enough to wonder how the whole thing happened.

So some morality shift might be attributed to the lack of real answers, but just as much if not more can be a rebellious spirit cloaked in pseudo-intellectual tripe.

Quote from: sk on March 12, 2009, 12:18:47 AM

But it only confirms the words coming from our mouths, it doesn't work instead of them.

Nobody said instead.  This is the principal reason that criticism of this axiom is reactionary and often missing the mark.

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But without the text, it won't mean much of anything.

Nobody said without.

Your (collective) expression implies instead/without (unless absolutely necessary): "Preach the gospel, and when necessary use words."

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But living a truly loving and righteous lifestyle will compel people to wonder.

I have never, ever had someone walk up to me and ask me about "the hope that lies within" outside of church.

That begs the question: why not?  And why does it have to be outside?  You're welcome to invite them.  That's sort of the point of the building.

1. The point of the building is to provide a place for believers to meet and grow in faith.
2. If someone there is unsaved, unspoken preaching is not as useful within the church since it would seem "required".
3. Many people think that just inviting someone to church "counts" as meeting their commission to evangelize, but note that we are to "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all..." (Mark 16:15), not "bring them to church so your pastor can preach for them for you."
4. As for why not... my guess is that people don't have time for a fifteen minute analysis of my life in order to realize I might be different.  A few that I interact with frequently, sure, but not "all" or "everyone" can be preached to this way.  (Besides, it takes far longer than just telling them about the gospel...

The paraphrase IS the common expression, and it's what was cited in the article.  If there's any other way this is written/stated other than exactly what was quoted, I would like to see it, because I haven't seen it expressed another way in the article or in this thread.  So this whole time I thought we were all talking about the same thing, but you seem to be saying that you think we're talking about two different things.

Common expression (so-called paraphrase):  "Preach the gospel, and when necessary use words."
St. Francis: “Let all the brothers, however, preach by their deeds.”

Big difference.  In fact, St. Francis was known to be quite vocal in preaching repentance.

Colin didn't say anything about "offering" an excellent life.  He said LIVING an excellent life, excelling in the way you live.

Misunderstood what he was referring to, my mistake.

Your conclusion is based on the assumption that children are rational beings.  I would submit that you have a lot to learn about children.

Humans are rational beings. Every action is taken from some form of reasoning.

Quote from: Colin Michael on March 12, 2009, 05:11:07 PM

Humans are rational beings. Every action is taken from some form of reasoning.

Not every action is taken strictly from reason.  People are not Vulcans, they act out of passion.

Your attempts to cloud this with semantics aside, the fact remains that children can still tend to act in their own interest, even after being given a rational reason not to behave a certain way.

Who's to say that acting in one's own interest isn't rational?

Overall, I agree with the article.  The present facade of Christianity in America is doomed to destruction, and I think it will happen sooner rather than later.  For a long time I have said that America as a nation won't exist in a recognizable form by 2050, and I think the outlawing of Christianity will happen before it ends.  At first the laws will view Christianity as annoying, but will allow people to practice their religion on their own time, but not in public.  Next laws will view Christianity as actually harmful, and therefore religious schools will be banned to protect the children.  Finally churches will be banned as well, and Christianity will move underground.

So what?  I also agree with the article (and some of my fellow board members here) that this is not a bad thing.  It will cause all the lukewarm christians to quit calling themselves that.  Getting rid of that chaff will actually cause the Church to be a brighter beacon leading people to true relationship with God.  One of the biggest stumbling blocks to people becoming Christians is the hypocrisy of the people who call themselves that.  When all the hypocrits leave, people will see what truly being a Christian is all about.

As for some of the other comments in this thread:

1 - Francis Assisi's paraphrase:  I agree that we should live out our faith.  I also agree that doing that requires speaking our faith sometimes.

2 - American Christian's ignorance:  I agree that most "christians" in America don't really know what their religion believes and don't live it.

3 - Soul Seeker's sources of the problem:
               a - Poor parenting:  I agree that this is probably the biggest reason behind the fall of US Christianity, and the fall of the US in general
               b - Evolution:  I think this is less of a big a deal anymore.  Evolution is a different "truth", but today's youth don't believe in any "truth"
               c - Consumerism:  I think that the church trying to become Burger King ("have it your way") is a huge part of the problem

Both of these numbers are based on a specific definition of what "having a Biblical worldview" means, so they should be taken with a grain of salt. Does it surprise anyone, however, that the younger generation is down by a factor of 20 or so from the older generation?

Here's Barna's complete analysis (directly from them).  "Biblical Worldview" means:
- absolute moral truth exists
- the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches
- Satan is considered to be a real being or force, not merely symbolic
- a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by trying to be good or do good works
- Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth
- God is the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the world who still rules the universe today

I'm actually surprised that 9% believe a couple of those themselves, much less all of them.  Sure doesn't seem like it at times...

Here's Barna's complete analysis (directly from them).  "Biblical Worldview" means:
- absolute moral truth exists
- the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches
- Satan is considered to be a real being or force, not merely symbolic
- a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by trying to be good or do good works
- Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth
- God is the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the world who still rules the universe today

I'm actually surprised that 9% believe a couple of those themselves, much less all of them.  Sure doesn't seem like it at times...

What about everyone else here?  how many beleive in a real literal Satan Figure?  and How many do not?  or should this be started in a different thread?

Quote from: sk on March 13, 2009, 04:26:12 AM

Here's Barna's complete analysis (directly from them).  "Biblical Worldview" means:
- absolute moral truth exists
- the Bible is totally accurate in all of the principles it teaches
- Satan is considered to be a real being or force, not merely symbolic
- a person cannot earn their way into Heaven by trying to be good or do good works
- Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth
- God is the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the world who still rules the universe today

I'm actually surprised that 9% believe a couple of those themselves, much less all of them.  Sure doesn't seem like it at times...

What about everyone else here?  how many beleive in a real literal Satan Figure?  and How many do not?  or should this be started in a different thread?

I believe a being by the name Satan exists; however, I probably differ from everyone else on several points.
1) His name was not Lucifer.
2) There are two "satan figures".
3) The first was the leader of the spirits of the Nephalim that were drowned in the flood (known sometimes as Baalzebub in Jewish literature).
4) The second was the leader of the second angelic rebellion (which Pol and I think happened at Babel).
5) The first is a demon, not a fallen angel.
6) The second is a fallen angel, not a demon.
7) The first has no real "power" and is under the direct command of God himself (most likely the same Satan as we see in Job).
The second has no real "power" over people except the power of fear and illusion.
9) Neither Satan was the serpent in the garden.

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 13, 2009, 10:09:26 AM

Barna claims that 45% of Americans self-label themselves as "Born-Again." Which are you surprised about for that 45%? The only ones I can see are the second (the Bible is totally accurate) and the third (Satan is real), but both of those have huge wiggle room as people are free to define "principles it teaches" and "force" as it pleases them.

- I'm surprised 9% believe in absolutes
- Even a few Christians I know don't consider the Bible to be totally accurate
- Many people I've talked to think they are getting to heaven because they are a "good person" (which they are obviously not -- thus the reasoning of Law & Grace preaching), even some self-proclaimed Christians

For the record, I agree with all 6 points.

I doesn't say that they believe the Bible totally accurate, it says that they believe the principles of the Bible are totally accurate. The former isn't even believed by most denominations.

My thoughts on the rest of the article (I'll try not to be so long winded this time):
1.  I agree but I don't think that it is anything new that we are seen as a threat to cultural progress...for afterall our struggle is not against flesh and blood...
2.  I'm not sure what his definition of "orthodox form of the faith" is.  Is he speaking about rituals and traditions?  If so, even those can come across as empty and...well....ritualistic.  Something to make people feel better.  I don't agree that those kinds of things are essential to pass along.  However, if he is talking about a Biblical worldview as outlined earlier in this thread and by Barna, then I think that is absolutely necessary to pass along.  I stated some of my reasons why that's not happening earlier in this thread.  However, I forgot to mention a fourth and important ingredient: a person's selfish will.  We may have poor examples as parents, been spoiled, and have been bombarded with all kinds of wrong messages, but we still have a choice to make.  I was talking with a former teen, and he made an interesting comment:  "[People] are still going to try things.  They want to figure out what's right for them."  I don't think that's changed a whole lot since the Garden of Eden.  I just think there is a whole lot more and variety of fruit being offered.
3.  I think his views of churches is too narrow.  There are churches that fall under those categories, but I find it hard to believe that all of the thousands of churches in America fall under 1 of THREE categories.  I think he is being over-simplistic to drive a point home.
4.  I think this is a broad brush stroke of an assumption that has enough truth to make him look right.  Then again, he admitted that there is some success out there.  So in a lot of ways he came off as contradictory to me with this statement.
5.  I disagree with this sentiment out right.  There are a lot of people and religions that try to do good works.  Many believe they will get to Heaven on good works.  I knew a girl who did good things and charity just because she was kind and yet she was an atheist.  If anything, then they will continue to do good just for the tax breaks.
6.  This is similar to number 2 and probably has similar contributions to the problem that number 2 has.
7.  Everybody is running out of money, not just the church.  However, I do know this.  God promises in multiple passages (both OT & NT) that God takes care of His children.  Not promising to make them rich but he will take care of the needs of those who love and trust Him.  I will hold on to that promise until the day I die.

He admits that some of his own predictions will probably not come true, but I find a lot of this as no surprise because there is an enemy battling against God and His Children (the Church) for every soul.  I am trying to instill Biblical principles into the teenagers under my tutelage as the best I can so that all of them can stand firm against the evil one.  Some of my methods may seem gimmicky, but it gets the teens to invite friends, read books of the Bible, and memorize Scripture all in addition to attending youth group.  I will be thankful for the work God does in their lives, not because of anything that I have done but because He is faithful.