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I'm still mulling it over.  My initial reaction is that there's going to be some change, not a collapse, and it's going to be a considerably longer time frame.

I'm having a hard time disagreeing with any of the points indicating the possible collapse.  In particular, I do think our churches are losing the plot and leaving the kids out to dry.  I've had several conversations with youth here on the board who are disillusioned with the church structure, and find it nearly impossible to convey to them the benefits and the necessities of the formal church.

But there's something I've heard and agree with regarding our economy that seems to resonate with what is in this article.  The feds are fighting so hard to prevent what may be inevitable, and prop up a faltering system.  Sometimes, for a forest to stay healthy, a controlled burn is needed so that new trees and grow and thrive.  I think our economy is better served by a controlled burn than all of our gyrations to try and prop it up.  Maybe this is what the church needs, too: to separate the wheat from the chaff and come out of it leaner and "meaner".  The resulting new church - I would imagine - would be something worth believing in.

We'll last another 200 centuries.

Just not in its current form, in America.

doesn't living by St. Francis' "preach the gospel always, and if necessary, use words" have a much more powerful application in today's society? I mean, everyone knows the "story" of the gospel.

1. St. Francis didn't say that.  It's one of the most misattributed quotes ever.
2. How can you preach repentance and faith without words?
3. People have heard the "Jesus died" part.  Many have no idea what it means or why it's important.

2. How can you preach repentance and faith without words?

By example.  This ties directly to your #3 question, knowing what is the significance of His sacrifice.  Salvation is a heart condition.  It changes us, inexplicably and inexorably, from the inside out.  We can never go back, we can never be the same.  We are COMPELLED to His will.  If we claim with our lips to love God and accept Jesus, but our actions do not convey the significance of accepting that love, then our actions will speak A LOT louder than our words.  But living a truly loving and righteous lifestyle will compel people to wonder.  The point of the expression is to LIVE our salvation, LIVE our testimony, LIVE our witness.

Our mouths are a critical part of our body, but they are only one part, and the rest of our body does speak about our lives.  Our words are a critical communication tool, but why do forums have formatting, all-caps posting, smilies, etc?  Because 90% of our communication is body language, unspoken.  Why do some people think I'm a megajerk online, but get along just fine with me in person?  Because they see the 90% of me that they don't get from reading a post.  The things we say are important, but the things we don't say are just as important, if not much more so.

The phrase is not a call to silence, as our blogging friend woefully mischaracterizes it.  It's a call to action, to passion, to REAL hope and change.

Schaef, I completely understand and agree that body language is important.  But it only confirms the words coming from our mouths, it doesn't work instead of them.

How about this:
                        

You can add all the bold and similes you want.  But without the text, it won't mean much of anything.  For instance, the line above this (before the simile) has John 3:16 written out, but I typed it "without words".  Ridiculous example, sure, but I'm not convinced it's much different.  You can't communicate the gospel message -- that sinners were given Jesus to die for them so they can be guiltless if they repent & trust -- without words [with the exclusion of ASL].  Will make the message more clear if we have the right attitude?  Sure.  Confirm it?  Absolutely.  But using certain body langage or formatting alone cannot replace preaching or sharing the gospel.

As Ray points out, see Ezekiel 3:18 (NASB):
"When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

But living a truly loving and righteous lifestyle will compel people to wonder.

I have never, ever had someone walk up to me and ask me about "the hope that lies within" outside of church.


Oh, and Colin, I know it is intended to be a paraphrase, but the common expression is quite different.  Expression implies speaking to people about the gospel should almost be a last resort, while St. Francis is saying what Schaef is saying, that our deeds and actions convey the attitude that comes from being saved.

Quote from: sk on March 11, 2009, 05:06:26 PM

Quote from: Colin Michael on March 11, 2009, 03:43:39 PM

doesn't living by St. Francis' "preach the gospel always, and if necessary, use words" have a much more powerful application in today's society? I mean, everyone knows the "story" of the gospel.

1. St. Francis didn't say that.  It's one of the most misattributed quotes ever.
2. How can you preach repentance and faith without words?
3. People have heard the "Jesus died" part.  Many have no idea what it means or why it's important.

The citation says that it was a paraphrased quote.

Uh, no it doesn't. Did you read the article?

I think you're forgetting the accessibility of the internet and other resources.

If this is in reference to why people don't talk to me, then very well, but it makes the need to "preach without words" unnecessary unless I use words to reveal I am a Christian.

Simply living an excellent life (which is what Christianity claims to offer) will make a person wonder what it is that makes you that way. Using the resources availible, this person may decide to also seek this "excellent lifestyle".

I'm not aware of any 'excellent' life being offered (in fact, Paul promises persecution, and this is evidenced by Foxx's Book of Martyrs and many numerous stories of Christians being killed or tortured for their faith).  What I am offered is an unbelievably kind gift of the forgiveness of my sins and eternal life in Heaven when I repent and trust.

Shaef, this is the second time we've found ourselves agreeing in a thread.


Dejavu, they must have changed something!

Quote

Simply living an excellent life (which is what Christianity claims to offer) will make a person wonder what it is that makes you that way. Using the resources availible, this person may decide to also seek this "excellent lifestyle".

I'm not aware of any 'excellent' life being offered (in fact, Paul promises persecution, and this is evidenced by Foxx's Book of Martyrs and many numerous stories of Christians being killed or tortured for their faith).  What I am offered is an unbelievably kind gift of the forgiveness of my sins and eternal life in Heaven when I repent and trust.

It may not be a pleasurable life or a perfect life, but that's kind of the point of Christianity, a "revaluation". The Christian life is so "excellent" because it recognises that life is hard and rejoices in sufferings. It recognises that we cannot be moral, so we have grace. It recognises God is good, therefore in all things we rejoice.

I think Nietzsche picked the wrong antithesis for his ubermensch.

The Coming Evangelical Collapse

An anti-Christian chapter in Western history is about to begin. But out of the ruins, a new vitality and integrity will rise....

Full article can be found at http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html

Thoughts, disagreements, concurrences?

 I will probably read it again, and break down some different points that stand out to me.  In short, it got me to thinking and reflecting on my ministry which I think is important.  I don't agree with a lot of it, and after talking to my wife, a former youth, and Pastor...I think he made some assumptions based on his personal experiences, feelings, and life.  He is disenchanted with the evangelical church and therefore it looks like he feels the need to bash it.  My pastor gave me some great advice and an article that I would like to pass on to you guys:

Couple of quick observations: Consider the venue –Christian Science Monitor
Consider the source-Michael Spencer “Internet Monk”
For a response to some of Spencer’s teaching please visit this link

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=364

My initial thoughts? Certainly some of what Spencer writes is true—
But when you back up a bit, you realize it is basically a lot of bashing without any solutions

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 11, 2009, 10:09:50 AM

Thoughts, disagreements, concurrences?

I will probably read it again, and break down some different points that stand out to me.  In short, it got me to thinking and reflecting on my ministry which I think is important.  I don't agree with a lot of it, and after talking to my wife, a former youth, and Pastor...I think he made some assumptions based on his personal experiences, feelings, and life.  He is disenchanted with the evangelical church and therefore it looks like he feels the need to bash it.

Soul Seeker, when you break down the different points, could you comment on the author's second reason...

2. We Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught.

Specifically I would like your thoughts on the claim that our youth "know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it." Obviously this doesn't mean every young person, but a recent Barna survey found that only 1/2 of 1% of 18-23 year olds have a Biblical Worldview.

In terms of the whole "living out the gospel" theme, the sad fact is that most non-Christians don't see Christians doing that. Once again, according to the Barna Group among young non-Christians the two most of the more common perceptions is that Christianity is judgmental (87%) and hypocritical (85%).

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 12, 2009, 02:05:43 PM

only 1/2 of 1%

Wouldn't that be 0.5%?

I was paraphrasing the original source, but yes, that is correct.