Author Topic: What to do with Persians  (Read 2374 times)

Offline Red Warrior

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What to do with Persians
« on: November 16, 2011, 12:28:37 PM »
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I apologize if this conversation has already come up, but if it has I've not seen it discussed. My long time players Cody and Zach have both had pretty long Bible Study conversations with me about this general question...

How do you use Persians in a game that strictly divides good and evil?

Note: If you're in a hurry, skip to the next bold heading, otherwise here's some food for thought...

By nature of the game, there are several "evil" characters who are allied such because of their cultural brigade (i.e. the Syrians were enemies of the people of God). But the waters get murky with Persia. The ones released have been those easy to align...

Easy-Peasy-Alignment
We can confidently call Haman, essentially a pre-nazi, an evil person, along with his wife Zeresh and their plot. Persian Presidents, at least the ones from Daniel 6, plotted against Daniel and tricked the King into signing a Decree against those who Set Aside time to worship. The Prince of Persia appears describe a sort of regal and regional demon (Eph 6:12).
Finally the remaining characters are aligned to evil because of their descriptions as beasts (beast->demon->evil). Some future easy ECS would be Haman's Sons (Esther 9:7-10), Bigthana and Teresh (Esther 2:21), and Impaling Rod (read Esther sometime, Persians loved them some shish kabob!).

Not-So-Easy-Alignment
But what do we make of various Kings of Persia? Some of their contributions included...
...sending the exiles (Ezra 1:2-4) with articles and treasure to rebuild their city
...stopping construction in Jerusalem (Ezra 4:23-24) when finding that Israel/Judah had a history of "rebellion and sedition"
...the original decree (Ezra 6:2-3), found later, read... approval for reconstruct given (dizzy yet?)
...allowing Nehemiah (Neh 2:7-9) to work toward the reconstruction of Jerusalem's walls
...gave permission (signet ring'ed) for the annihilation of the Jews
...gave the Jews permission to resist the (above) attack and take their plunder

Here are some options (I know you all will think of more, that's why I love this group!)
1) We can simply align Persians as brown and emphasize the "resistant" side of Persia's works
2) We can split up Persian cards (like Kings of Israel) between Purple and Brown based on their characteristics
3) We can pull a "King Saul" trick and print those 'hard-to-align' Kings into both brigades.
4) Dual-sided cards that enter play as Hero/EC per Angry Mob rotation?  ;)

What do you think of these options? What are some other options?

-Joey

Red was always playable :)

Offline Asahel24601

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2011, 06:35:42 PM »
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I say mostly Evil, with Darius the Mead and Cyrus the Great as either Heroes or Duel- sided cards.

Any arguments?

Offline Bobbert

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2011, 07:14:08 PM »
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I think that, based of previous Redemption cards, the Persians would be all evil. I'm not saying I agree - in fact, I think that some of the evil characters should be good (namely, Dreaming Pharaoh).
ANB is good. Change my mind.

Offline CJSports

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2011, 09:06:51 PM »
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King Xerxes is something like Saul/Paul IMO because once he married Esther and found out about here God he became a believer and before that he wasn't necessarily a bad guy but he wasn't a believer either.
Life is not a promise but eternity is...

Offline Drrek

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2011, 09:27:26 PM »
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I think that there are many characters that should start evil and turn good on a condition or start good and turn evil.
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2011, 10:46:25 PM »
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I think that there are many characters that should start evil and turn good on a condition or start good and turn evil.
+1

Offline Bobbert

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2011, 11:12:18 PM »
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I think that there are many characters that should start evil and turn good on a condition or start good and turn evil.
+1

+1 I think that this would make the game much more accurate, if not extremely complicated
ANB is good. Change my mind.

Offline Asahel24601

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2011, 11:20:37 PM »
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I tried Cyrus as a King Saul, But he cant be, biblicaly, an E.C. I can't Find a verse to make him evil

That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid. Isaiah 44:28

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, 2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. 3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem. 4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.  Ezra 1:1-4

Offline Bryon

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2011, 11:35:00 PM »
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I think that there are many characters that should start evil and turn good on a condition or start good and turn evil.
+1
+1.  The Dreaming Pharaoh could be one that becomes a Hero if Joseph is in play, for example.  Also, I think that there should be some cards that start as lost souls and become heroes. 

These 2 particular Persians seem like they should be heroes.

Offline Red Warrior

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2011, 11:43:40 PM »
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*Note: original post edited after seeing Asahel's and Bryon's posts*

I think that, based of previous Redemption cards, the Persians would be all evil. I'm not saying I agree - in fact, I think that some of the evil characters should be good (namely, Dreaming Pharaoh).

I went blank on examples earlier, but yeah Dreaming Pharaoh is a great example of a "not so evil" evil character (I know there are others too, hm...) The thing to keep in mind is the cultural significance of paganism. Even Cyrus who spoke of "The LORD, the God of heaven" (Ezra 1:2) he also prayed "may all the gods whom I have resettled in their former sanctuaries intercede daily on my behalf to Marduk" (the Cyrus Cylinder)" So even helpful pagans are still pagans I guess.

I think that there are many characters that should start evil and turn good on a condition or start good and turn evil.

Then there are people like King Joash (and a host of others) who started ruling good and ended badly (Joash, saved by Jehoida as a boy, even kills Jehoida's son Zechariah when he prophesied against him! - 2 Chronicles 24).

...The "condition" idea is really cool (like "If an Esther hero is enters play..."). We could widen out the identifier space on these cards to include space for such conditions. Rather than Saul/Paul (two sides) they should be Abraham/Abram style (EC left, GC right, vice-versa)

« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 12:24:26 AM by Red Warrior »
-Joey

Red was always playable :)

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2011, 04:07:40 PM »
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Quite honestly, there's the entire possibility of dual-sided cards.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
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Offline Red Warrior

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2011, 09:19:04 PM »
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Saul the persecutor is changed by God's grace through Jesus and becomes a powerful "hero" who helps to establish the church. We call him "Paul" because he is primarily known as Paul after his conversion (the names are a Hebrew/Greek linguistic difference, not a "Christened" name). The point is that he made a major turn-around well meriting the design of a dual-sided card.

There's no real evidence that Xerxes ever really "changed", so it makes it hard for me to give him the same design as Saul/Paul.
We did already use the design for a site basically to reflect the movement of Moses from baby on the banks to Pharaoh's Prince.

Hm...   Good thoughts, keep em coming!...
-Joey

Red was always playable :)

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2011, 10:07:12 PM »
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As in, both sides (front and back) are used.  Not Saul/Paul.  This'd allow for more detail on SA and art.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2011, 06:43:44 PM »
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As in, both sides (front and back) are used.  Not Saul/Paul.  This'd allow for more detail on SA and art.

How do you plan to do this? This will not work at all for people who don't use/have sleeves, and gives a lot of opportunity for sleight of hand when switching for those who do.

I think that we should do something like the dual enhancements; they count as both when not in play, but once they enter play they have to stay as they were put down until reset (via deck or discard pile).
ANB is good. Change my mind.

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: What to do with Persians
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2011, 11:18:01 PM »
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MTG managed it quite fine with their latest set.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
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