Author Topic: What does the game need? (Read 18605 times)

Redoubter · « **Reply #25 on:** August 17, 2013, 07:12:44 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on August 17, 2013, 04:14:49 PM

Quote from: The Guardian on August 17, 2013, 02:57:55 PM
What pre-block ignore combos do you think are still a problem?

Its not specific combos with me (though TGT is still pretty powerful, and Jacob/Joseph RTC is still very good), its the fact that pre-block ignore completely takes away your opponent's ability to block, which I really don't think is a good thing.

This. If I can play pre-block ignore off of TGT, HT, Jacob, and more, it makes it so that there is quite literally no way to have a battle or block. The 'counters' we have to ignore also don't even have total coverage of the problem.

It is asked, what combos are 'still' a problem. Response is, what solutions to it have come out that ever fixed it? They still can run rampant, doing whatever they please. The only legitimate counters that has been printed are DD and CWD, but DD is squishy, CWD causes other problems (and is a great offensive card honestly), and there is still nothing to counter TGT. Destructive Sin is about it, and even that is pretty limited in effectiveness.

I'm not sure how allowing players to just not allow blocking is a good idea, and more counters are needed to stop it IMO.

Redoubter · « **Reply #26 on:** August 17, 2013, 07:31:55 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on August 17, 2013, 07:27:38 PM

Preblock ignore being a problem or no doesn't belong in this thread. I think it was very cool of Gabe to open the door to us and allows us to give some feedback from non-elder perspectives. I don't want to lose such a privilege over a frivolous debate that belongs in another thread.

I don't agree with that at all, because I'm saying we actually need to counter it, which would require new cards. Others seem to disagree that we need to add more counters. That's the whole point of this thread, he's asking for input, which you can't have without a discussion

TheJaylor · « **Reply #27 on:** August 17, 2013, 07:35:42 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on August 17, 2013, 07:27:38 PM

Just my thought

Preblock ignore being a problem or no doesn't belong in this thread. I think it was very cool of Gabe to open the door to us and allows us to give some feedback from non-elder perspectives. I don't want to lose such a privilege over a frivolous debate that belongs in another thread.

Something else I would like to see would be a missionary identifier.

Redoubter is correct in that Gabe's asking for input about what needs to be countered and people were just wondering which specific combos were the problem. Also, I think the missionary identifier would be a good idea but I think it'd be more of an Evangelist identifier right? Since we already have Philip the Evangelist it would make sense.

Red · « **Reply #28 on:** August 17, 2013, 07:44:13 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on August 17, 2013, 07:31:55 PM

Quote from: jbeers285 on August 17, 2013, 07:27:38 PM
Preblock ignore being a problem or no doesn't belong in this thread. I think it was very cool of Gabe to open the door to us and allows us to give some feedback from non-elder perspectives. I don't want to lose such a privilege over a frivolous debate that belongs in another thread.

I don't agree with that at all, because I'm saying we actually need to counter it, which would require new cards. Others seem to disagree that we need to add more counters. That's the whole point of this thread, he's asking for input, which you can't have without a discussion

At this point in time pre-block ignore is being phased out. Simply release other avenues of attack and defense. Nothing needs counters. What we need are simply more unique things that haven't been done to death.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 17, 2013, 07:51:58 PM »

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on August 17, 2013, 07:35:42 PM

Quote from: jbeers285 on August 17, 2013, 07:27:38 PM
Just my thought

Preblock ignore being a problem or no doesn't belong in this thread. I think it was very cool of Gabe to open the door to us and allows us to give some feedback from non-elder perspectives. I don't want to lose such a privilege over a frivolous debate that belongs in another thread.

Something else I would like to see would be a missionary identifier.
Redoubter is correct in that Gabe's asking for input about what needs to be countered and people were just wondering which specific combos were the problem. Also, I think the missionary identifier would be a good idea but I think it'd be more of an Evangelist identifier right? Since we already have Philip the Evangelist it would make sense.

I see the point and am willing to say I may have misinterpreted the posts pertaining to PBI.

I personally don't have an issue with either word being used. However I think for younger audiences and audiences not necessarily steeped in Christianity "missionary" is a more recognizable word. I'm not sure changing identifiers to fit old cards is a great idea. Isn't Phillip the Evangelist blue? I doubt we will see any more NT stuff in blue. So PtE probably needs reprinted too.

Arrthoa · « **Reply #30 on:** August 17, 2013, 08:26:51 PM »

I think we need more roman reprints, like four squads, roman jailer, the other non gray emperors and Nero. They are alright as is now and I know they were used in the deck that won nats, but I think they could be better. N.T. defenses in general need improvements.

Offensive themes are pretty good, but some themes could use some extra support. I would love to see a James and Andrew that had a ability other than band to John and Peter. Without their bros out James and Andrew are pretty much only useful for using to give your other disciples site access through fishing boat.

The Guardian · « **Reply #31 on:** August 17, 2013, 09:08:27 PM »

Sower is also an "Evangelist" so I'm guessing we'll stick with that identifier.

I guess I didn't really think pre-block ignore was still such a big issue. TGT didn't play a huge role in the top decks at Nats (I think only JDS was running Disciples w/ TGT of those who made Top Cut). There was only one disciples deck in T2 and I'm not sure if Clift was running TGT in that deck. My T2 Genesis deck doesn't even use Zebulun or RTC. The most I saw pre-block ignore abused at Nats was myself drawing an early Widow against Matt Stupienski in Sealed deck

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #32 on:** August 17, 2013, 11:10:35 PM »

I also didn't think pre-block ignore is as big a deal anymore. Although I saw probably 6 Zebuluns splashed into Disciples decks at nationals...

Some ideas:
1. More Territory Destruction - I think that more evil situational territory destruction cards would be good. Right now it is mainly crimson and pale green that can hit territory. Maybe print a card for orange, a card for evil gold, and a card for brown that do something along the lines of Set Fire, Razor, Forest Fire, ASA, Babylonian Soldiers, etc. Gray and black see a lot of play as is and black has Abom so they wouldn't need it.

2. Cards that are dynamic based on d/c pile size - Like browarod said, I think it would be cool to have cards that are more powerful if your opponent has more cards in their discard pile. That would put a hurt on fast decks, Gates of Hell, and be a good end game strategy. Magic does this concept well with cards like Consuming Aberation (I think that is the card).

3. Cards with "or" abilities - I think that cards should potentially have "or" abilities as this would provide so many more options in gameplay.
- Make one ability high cost high reward (e.g. discard top card of deck and two of your heroes to discard two of your opponent's cards) and another more simple (draw 1, band to a ___ hero).
- Make one ability a great counter to certain deck types and the other more generic and weaker.
- Or make one ability slam one strategy and the other ability slam a completely different strategy. I could see value in making almost an entire set with "or" abilities.

4. Off-the-wall abilities - Introduce cards that really turn the game on its head, like Seven Wicked Spirits and Stalks of Flax. These cards will throw a wrench in whatever setup your opponent had going.
- Maybe switch places with your opponent for two turns if you have at least 6 cards in hand - meaning you play as your opponent and vice versa. You would try to make them waste their best cards at the risk of them doing the same to you. It would need to be heavily tested but I think it could be pretty fun.
- Make a dominant that "rewinds" a turn (or round).
- Allow all evil characters to taunt via an artifact or other card.

Kirk

Drrek · « **Reply #33 on:** August 17, 2013, 11:34:17 PM »

Quote from: Captain Kirk on August 17, 2013, 11:10:35 PM

I also didn't think pre-block ignore is as big a deal anymore. Although I saw probably 6 Zebuluns splashed into Disciples decks at nationals...

Question, were they aware Zeb doesn't do anything if any disciples are out?

TheJaylor · « **Reply #34 on:** August 17, 2013, 11:35:16 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on August 17, 2013, 11:34:17 PM

Quote from: Captain Kirk on August 17, 2013, 11:10:35 PM
I also didn't think pre-block ignore is as big a deal anymore. Although I saw probably 6 Zebuluns splashed into Disciples decks at nationals...

Question, were they aware Zeb doesn't do anything if any disciples are out?

Fishing Boat is handier than you may think.

Redoubter · « **Reply #35 on:** August 18, 2013, 01:03:34 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on August 17, 2013, 09:08:27 PM

TGT didn't play a huge role in the top decks at Nats (I think only JDS was running Disciples w/ TGT of those who made Top Cut). There was only one disciples deck in T2 and I'm not sure if Clift was running TGT in that deck.

That may have been 2P, but about 3/4 decks checked in at Nats for MP (including one of mine) were Disciples, and TGT won more than a couple of rescues in games I was in...

On other cards, I would definitely like cards with "or" options as suggested, that would be a great way to introduce counters that could remain useful even if the opponent wasn't using the particular strategy being countered. I know a lot of complaints about cards that stop specific tactics involve "Yeah, but if they don't use that, you have wasted a card slot". Would be interesting to explore.

KingLeo · « **Reply #36 on:** August 18, 2013, 08:26:28 AM »

Me personally, I would love to see musicians boosted and the old themes of Defense such as - Syrian, Assyrian, Babs. and Musicians were kind of dropped in my perspective :/ You made one expansion of them and ........ then gave no back up for them so far except for ONE enhancement that actually negates asaph I mean.... come on! l

CJSports · « **Reply #37 on:** August 18, 2013, 08:37:40 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on August 17, 2013, 07:12:44 PM

Quote from: Drrek on August 17, 2013, 04:14:49 PM
Quote from: The Guardian on August 17, 2013, 02:57:55 PM
What pre-block ignore combos do you think are still a problem?

Its not specific combos with me (though TGT is still pretty powerful, and Jacob/Joseph RTC is still very good), its the fact that pre-block ignore completely takes away your opponent's ability to block, which I really don't think is a good thing.

This. If I can play pre-block ignore off of TGT, HT, Jacob, and more, it makes it so that there is quite literally no way to have a battle or block. The 'counters' we have to ignore also don't even have total coverage of the problem.

It is asked, what combos are 'still' a problem. Response is, what solutions to it have come out that ever fixed it? They still can run rampant, doing whatever they please. The only legitimate counters that has been printed are DD and CWD, but DD is squishy, CWD causes other problems (and is a great offensive card honestly), and there is still nothing to counter TGT. Destructive Sin is about it, and even that is pretty limited in effectiveness.

I'm not sure how allowing players to just not allow blocking is a good idea, and more counters are needed to stop it IMO.

Golgotha? It is an amazing counter to pre-block ignore escpecially if you are playing CP.

Drrek · « **Reply #38 on:** August 18, 2013, 11:49:38 AM »

Quote from: CJSports on August 18, 2013, 08:37:40 AM

Quote from: Redoubter on August 17, 2013, 07:12:44 PM
Quote from: Drrek on August 17, 2013, 04:14:49 PM
Quote from: The Guardian on August 17, 2013, 02:57:55 PM
What pre-block ignore combos do you think are still a problem?

Its not specific combos with me (though TGT is still pretty powerful, and Jacob/Joseph RTC is still very good), its the fact that pre-block ignore completely takes away your opponent's ability to block, which I really don't think is a good thing.

This. If I can play pre-block ignore off of TGT, HT, Jacob, and more, it makes it so that there is quite literally no way to have a battle or block. The 'counters' we have to ignore also don't even have total coverage of the problem.

It is asked, what combos are 'still' a problem. Response is, what solutions to it have come out that ever fixed it? They still can run rampant, doing whatever they please. The only legitimate counters that has been printed are DD and CWD, but DD is squishy, CWD causes other problems (and is a great offensive card honestly), and there is still nothing to counter TGT. Destructive Sin is about it, and even that is pretty limited in effectiveness.

I'm not sure how allowing players to just not allow blocking is a good idea, and more counters are needed to stop it IMO.

Golgotha? It is an amazing counter to pre-block ignore escpecially if you are playing CP.

If only it worked for O.T. defenses.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #39 on:** August 18, 2013, 12:36:28 PM »

Quote from: Captain Kirk on August 17, 2013, 11:10:35 PM

I also didn't think pre-block ignore is as big a deal anymore. Although I saw probably 6 Zebuluns splashed into Disciples decks at nationals...

I wish that stuff like that hardly ever happened. To me pre-block ignore is a problem as long as people keep splashing cards like Zeb into decks where they wouldn't normally go (like disciples) just to abuse an overly powerful tactic in the game that prevents opponents from even getting to use their cards.

I really like a lot of the suggestions in this thread, and appreciate everyone giving their input here. I of course agree with the need for specific help (like paralysis, Persians, Syrians, and NT Red), but I also love the general idea of "or" cards. This is a great way to have counters to things that also could be helpful when you don't face that thing.

Keep the ideas coming guys

Master KChief · « **Reply #40 on:** August 18, 2013, 01:34:34 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on August 18, 2013, 12:36:28 PM

To me pre-block ignore is a problem as long as people keep splashing cards like Zeb into decks where they wouldn't normally go (like disciples) just to abuse an overly powerful tactic in the game that prevents opponents from even getting to use their cards.

...You mean like in defense heavy turtle decks?

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #41 on:** August 18, 2013, 01:55:25 PM »

I had an entire set idea centered on Sins (for evil) and Prayers (for good) and the Sins place on heroes and do all sorts of nasty things when they enter battle (usually at least) and the Prayers placed on heroes and had continual benefits until the hero they are placed on enters battle, where it gets discarded to have an instant ability.

Basically thematically, I love the idea of Sins doing things to heroes that, while not stopping the heroes from rescuing, it does have all kinds of negative impacts on them or the heroes around them. Thematically the prayers are supposed to be the hero it is placed on is interceding for the heroes in battle.

I'm not saying this is what Redemption needs, but I think it could be very interesting for the game, especially because it deals with major aspects of the Christian life (or Israelite/Jewish life in the Bible).

Drrek · « **Reply #42 on:** August 18, 2013, 02:24:27 PM »

I still love the Thieves theme idea Not at all because my brother and I were the ones who came up with them, what would give you that crazy idea?

Josh · « **Reply #43 on:** August 18, 2013, 03:13:49 PM »

Quote from: Captain Kirk on August 17, 2013, 11:10:35 PM

I also didn't think pre-block ignore is as big a deal anymore. Although I saw probably 6 Zebuluns splashed into Disciples decks at nationals...

Some ideas:
1. More Territory Destruction - I think that more evil situational territory destruction cards would be good. Right now it is mainly crimson and pale green that can hit territory. Maybe print a card for orange, a card for evil gold, and a card for brown that do something along the lines of Set Fire, Razor, Forest Fire, ASA, Babylonian Soldiers, etc. Gray and black see a lot of play as is and black has Abom so they wouldn't need it.

2. Cards that are dynamic based on d/c pile size - Like browarod said, I think it would be cool to have cards that are more powerful if your opponent has more cards in their discard pile. That would put a hurt on fast decks, Gates of Hell, and be a good end game strategy. Magic does this concept well with cards like Consuming Aberation (I think that is the card).

3. Cards with "or" abilities - I think that cards should potentially have "or" abilities as this would provide so many more options in gameplay.
- Make one ability high cost high reward (e.g. discard top card of deck and two of your heroes to discard two of your opponent's cards) and another more simple (draw 1, band to a ___ hero).
- Make one ability a great counter to certain deck types and the other more generic and weaker.
- Or make one ability slam one strategy and the other ability slam a completely different strategy. I could see value in making almost an entire set with "or" abilities.

4. Off-the-wall abilities - Introduce cards that really turn the game on its head, like Seven Wicked Spirits and Stalks of Flax. These cards will throw a wrench in whatever setup your opponent had going.
- Maybe switch places with your opponent for two turns if you have at least 6 cards in hand - meaning you play as your opponent and vice versa. You would try to make them waste their best cards at the risk of them doing the same to you. It would need to be heavily tested but I think it could be pretty fun.
- Make a dominant that "rewinds" a turn (or round).
- Allow all evil characters to taunt via an artifact or other card.

Kirk

I'll second this. The game needs variety and new concepts to keep things interesting and less predictable. A lot of good ideas above.

The game doesn't need "this theme better" or "this identifier" or "NT blue". Those are more "wants". Frankly, nothing is more annoying than PBI; I don't really care how many decks ran TGT or Zeb at Nationals. Those offenses are always going to be a problem, especially for OT defenses.

I'd like to see more defensive TD as well. Not 1 for 1s, like Ancient Evil or A Look Back. EEs more hardy that could make their way into decks, even if they aren't battlewinners. Maybe cards that target both artifacts and heroes in territory.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #44 on:** August 18, 2013, 03:16:29 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on August 18, 2013, 03:13:49 PM

I'd like to see more defensive TD as well. Not 1 for 1s, like Ancient Evil or A Look Back. EEs more hardy that could make their way into decks, even if they aren't battlewinners. Maybe cards that target both artifacts and heroes in territory.

They have improved in that regard a lot. Many new cards are versatile in terms of what they can target, giving you options as to how you use it (see: You are the Christ)

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #45 on:** August 18, 2013, 03:26:14 PM »

I agree that thematic increase are not what we need. Every theme can't be playable. If every theme is playable, I really think the game would be terrible and OP most likely.

Card ideas:

Hero ability: Discard a curse or evil enhancement in play to discard an evil character of a different brigade. Can not be prevented.
-beats CoD, but doesn't suck against other stuff. Punishes CoD splashes. Can stuff your deck with your own curses for cool interactions. Doesn't negate the curse, which could be funny later in the phase.

Multi-color site: If this site is occupied, negate sites.
-Good and balanced. Strange how that works. Can function as access, but you can't use the ability. Ability is strong, but any hero can rescue from it, so it doesn't help lock out. Would need to be tested a bit to ensure it's not too good in T1 without rescuer's choice, but I don't think it would be.

Fortress: If X(conditional trigger) happens/is is play, each time a player uses a can not be negated ability (other than a Dominant) that player must either discard a card from topdeck, discard a card from hand, or discard a card in territory (other than a lost soul).
-Conditional trigger to deal with CBN abilities if we insist on no set rotation away from them. Gives the user options of what to discard to inherently balance the card, but also can be really good in the right situation. Might be overbalanced to prevent it from being too OP.

Red · « **Reply #46 on:** August 18, 2013, 03:27:55 PM »

Whats funny is most themes have cards that are insanely playable and just are straddled by not good back up. Also, Musicians are really underrated.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #47 on:** August 18, 2013, 04:12:46 PM »

Playable =/= good

Isildur · « **Reply #48 on:** August 18, 2013, 04:22:06 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 18, 2013, 03:26:14 PM

I agree that thematic increase are not what we need. Every theme can't be playable. If every theme is playable, I really think the game would be terrible and OP most likely.

I think a majority of other games say otherwise.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #49 on:** August 18, 2013, 04:55:15 PM »

Other games don't have like 20+ themes in my experience.

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Author Topic: What does the game need? (Read 18605 times)

Lamborghini_diablo