Author Topic: The 2018 Community Created Card: Special ability voting (Read 14050 times)

The Guardian · « **Reply #50 on:** February 08, 2018, 11:00:02 AM »

Just as an FYI, protection and CBN/CBI are very rarely going to be paired together (especially when the protection includes the card itself).

Watchman · « **Reply #51 on:** February 08, 2018, 11:22:05 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on February 08, 2018, 11:00:02 AM

Just as an FYI, protection and CBN/CBI are very rarely going to be paired together (especially when the protection includes the card itself).

Unless the protection is limited. Emp. Claudius has strong limited protection and is CBP. Why not make Rapha the black brigade’s Claudius?

Master Q · « **Reply #52 on:** February 08, 2018, 12:20:22 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on February 07, 2018, 06:17:23 PM

I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.

The problem with the giants is not their abilities. It's the other philistines. You almost never want to block with Philistine Diviners, for example, as it's not nearly as good as blocking with Saph. This will hopefully get them some more use.

And for the giants other than Saph or Goliath, Ishbibinob is never played, Lahmi has no ability (the black one), and Twelve fingered giant is almost always a last resort. As-is, Goliath is pretty situationally amazing currently, but not always so. More often than not he ends up as fodder.

Also, the copy is not CB-anything, so if you negate it, then it's fine. Shouldn't be too difficult.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #53 on:** February 08, 2018, 01:20:51 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on February 08, 2018, 11:00:02 AM

Just as an FYI, protection and CBN/CBI are very rarely going to be paired together (especially when the protection includes the card itself).

Right, but that's only relevant when the card itself does something that continually effects the game like option #4. Basically, there is a lot of territory destruction for good that is both more advantageous to use and more accessible than on the evil side. The cbn's function is mostly to cut down on words, but it would work nice in battle too, to make spears work through Moses or something.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #54 on:** February 08, 2018, 08:01:44 PM »

30% vote differential for option #4 over it's nearest competitor, and 51 votes in.

Whoo-hoo!

Sadness · « **Reply #55 on:** February 08, 2018, 08:40:45 PM »

I have a feeling the playtesters might try to combine options 1 and 4. Or playtest with the options on paper cards to see if it'll fly... as they have told us before... the finished product might be tweeted/tested before it's released. Sorry,this was sounding better in my head before I tried posting it here. Someone else can dumb it down

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #56 on:** February 08, 2018, 09:45:42 PM »

Quote from: Sadness on February 08, 2018, 08:40:45 PM

I have a feeling the playtesters might try to combine options 1 and 4. Or playtest with the options on paper cards to see if it'll fly... as they have told us before... the finished product might be tweeted/tested before it's released. Sorry,this was sounding better in my head before I tried posting it here. Someone else can dumb it down

I would be okay with FBTN and protection for the special ability without CBP. I think philistines should get a FBTN giant.

Oh and is Lahmi going to get a reprint with a special ability??

Red Wing · « **Reply #57 on:** February 08, 2018, 10:41:28 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on February 08, 2018, 11:00:02 AM

Just as an FYI, protection and CBN/CBI are very rarely going to be paired together (especially when the protection includes the card itself).

Glad y'all learned something from Kony...

The Guardian · « **Reply #58 on:** February 08, 2018, 10:51:37 PM »

Now now...we may have overlooked Ram's Horn during testing

... but who uses Ram's Horn these days?!?!

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #59 on:** February 08, 2018, 11:57:56 PM »

Quote from: Red Wing on February 08, 2018, 10:41:28 PM

Quote from: The Guardian on February 08, 2018, 11:00:02 AM
Just as an FYI, protection and CBN/CBI are very rarely going to be paired together (especially when the protection includes the card itself).
Glad y'all learned something from Kony...

For the record Children of Light started out as CBN on the initlal list. We toned it down after a few decks were built with it, but none of us thought to go as crazy all in as JD did.

Gabe · « **Reply #60 on:** February 09, 2018, 01:20:07 AM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on February 08, 2018, 11:57:56 PM

For the record Children of Light started out as CBN on the initlal list. We toned it down after a few decks were built with it, but none of us thought to go as crazy all in as JD Joshua did.

FTFY - JD just used Joshua's decklist with a few slight modifications.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #61 on:** February 09, 2018, 01:22:41 AM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on February 08, 2018, 11:57:56 PM

Quote from: Red Wing on February 08, 2018, 10:41:28 PM
Quote from: The Guardian on February 08, 2018, 11:00:02 AM
Just as an FYI, protection and CBN/CBI are very rarely going to be paired together (especially when the protection includes the card itself).
Glad y'all learned something from Kony...

For the record Children of Light started out as CBN on the initlal list. We toned it down after a few decks were built with it, but none of us thought to go as crazy all in as JD did.

Hey hey now, I didn't tighten it like JD but I ran the concept against him with the armors and fruits. . . He just took it and went crazy with it. The crucial miss for me was justice seekers. Tbf though I wasn't . . . Let me see . . . As active as previous years lol

Reth · « **Reply #62 on:** February 09, 2018, 01:46:05 AM »

Indeed. Within the winning Kony a lot of awsome concepts came together (just remembering Eternal Inheritance and Christ's Triumph!)!

My favorite is still SA one - while I am not a fan of FBTN I really like reserve access and it would be great if it could be widened to the Philis (Giants).
And with the combination of the restricted FBTN and the weapons search all the formerly great weapons like Lahmi's Spear, Ish's sword, Foreign sword and so on will very useful again and could be placed within reserve!

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #63 on:** February 09, 2018, 09:08:45 AM »

Quote from: Sadness on February 08, 2018, 08:40:45 PM

I have a feeling the playtesters might try to combine options 1 and 4.

As #4 is the clear preference of the community (at the moment), I hope they do not do this.

If the SA as written is truly found to be OP in playtesting, I would like to see how the design team rejiggers the SA while keeping true to the wishes of the community.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #64 on:** February 09, 2018, 09:43:12 AM »

If we're talking about combining 1 and 4, I would prefer an ability with the territory protection from 4 and the FBTN from 1 over any of the current voting options.

Reth · « **Reply #65 on:** February 09, 2018, 01:19:37 PM »

Why does nobody seem to like reserve access widened especially to older themes/cards?

The Schaefer · « **Reply #66 on:** February 09, 2018, 01:30:25 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on February 08, 2018, 12:20:22 PM

Quote from: Gabe on February 07, 2018, 06:17:23 PM
I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.

The problem with the giants is not their abilities. It's the other philistines. You almost never want to block with Philistine Diviners, for example, as it's not nearly as good as blocking with Saph. This will hopefully get them some more use.

And for the giants other than Saph or Goliath, Ishbibinob is never played, Lahmi has no ability (the black one), and Twelve fingered giant is almost always a last resort. As-is, Goliath is pretty situationally amazing currently, but not always so. More often than not he ends up as fodder.

Also, the copy is not CB-anything, so if you negate it, then it's fine. Shouldn't be too difficult.

The problem with this is there's still no reason to do most other phils even if this is printed. The good ones just get better because the copy can target them. If you're looking to diversify the characters and abilities phils use this will likely have the opposite effect. I like the idea concept but not how it interacts with phils.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #67 on:** February 09, 2018, 02:57:27 PM »

Quote from: The Schaefer on February 09, 2018, 01:30:25 PM

Quote from: Master Q on February 08, 2018, 12:20:22 PM
Quote from: Gabe on February 07, 2018, 06:17:23 PM
I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.

The problem with the giants is not their abilities. It's the other philistines. You almost never want to block with Philistine Diviners, for example, as it's not nearly as good as blocking with Saph. This will hopefully get them some more use.

And for the giants other than Saph or Goliath, Ishbibinob is never played, Lahmi has no ability (the black one), and Twelve fingered giant is almost always a last resort. As-is, Goliath is pretty situationally amazing currently, but not always so. More often than not he ends up as fodder.

Also, the copy is not CB-anything, so if you negate it, then it's fine. Shouldn't be too difficult.
The problem with this is there's still no reason to do most other phils even if this is printed. The good ones just get better because the copy can target them. If you're looking to diversify the characters and abilities phils use this will likely have the opposite effect. I like the idea concept but not how it interacts with phils.

What if the copy SA was actually a copy SA instead of a gain? Character X loses his/her SA and gains the SA of an evil Philistine character? That gives a reason to play almost the full panoply of Philistine characters, and eliminates all (most?) of Gabe's concerns about Goliath.

I'm not saying this is the bestest solution, but you know the SA is going to get tweaked in play testing. Something like the above is just an example of how you can tweak the ability but keep it consistent with the original spirit.

Quote from: Reth on February 09, 2018, 01:19:37 PM

Why does nobody seem to like reserve access widened especially to older themes/cards?

I think it would be fun to give reserve access as a taunt ability.

Taunt: If not accepted search Reserve for a giant or a weapon.

Gives a reason to move a TC character into battle, and an incentive for the opponent to fight him.

#BringBackTheTaunt

Gabe · « **Reply #68 on:** February 09, 2018, 03:31:49 PM »

MJB, it seems like your suggesting an option that could just turn into character you want into Goliath. So instead of having one Goliath in your deck that can be brought back several times, you get an entire deck full of Goliath? I don't see how that's a good idea...

Taunt abilities are only used on characters that are noted to have taunted others in scripture. As you've pointed out, we know nothing of this Rapha. "He probably never fought in a battle", much less taunted anyone.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #69 on:** February 09, 2018, 04:19:26 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on February 09, 2018, 03:31:49 PM

MJB, it seems like your suggesting an option that could just turn into character you want into Goliath. So instead of having one Goliath in your deck that can be brought back several times, you get an entire deck full of Goliath? I don't see how that's a good idea...

Sure, if your entire deck is a lone Philistine giant who is blocking. I thought we were all on the same page that I was talking about modifying Option #4, not crating something from scratch...

So a first pass would be...

WC/TC: Protect giants in territory from opponents. If your lone Philistine giant blocks, it may copy the special ability of an evil Philistine in your territory until the end of battle.

It seems to me it would be more interesting to try and tweak a new special ability in this kind of way than to simply chuck the whole idea at the start because "We can never balance that SA."

Quote

Taunt abilities are only used on characters that are noted to have taunted others in scripture. As you've pointed out, we know nothing of this Rapha. "He probably never fought in a battle", much less taunted anyone.

Yeah, but as noted before children tend to follow in their father's footsteps and at least 40% of Rapha's boys were noted taunters (and we have no evidence either way about the other three).

#BringBackTheTaunt

The Guardian · « **Reply #70 on:** February 09, 2018, 04:22:47 PM »

Much like the debate over the card title, I am certain there is a good way forward that we can find.

While it appears option 4 will come out on top, there is also significant support for option #1 as well as support for a hybrid of the two abilities. I will let the voting play out to the deadline and will then evaluate the options and feedback. I do appreciate all the feedback thus far and welcome additional thoughts people may want to share.

As Gabe and others have noted, there are certainly some concerns with the power level of a copy ability. At first glance, it seems really fun and unique, but not only do we need to consider it's potential right now, we also have to consider how it could effect design space in the future. We have been purposefully selective in creating copy abilities because of their potential for abuse.

For those in favor of the copy ability, please know that I am not saying that there's no chance a copy ability would pass testing--only that it would require more extensive testing because it would be "new" in terms of the potential interactions. Things like Reserve access and FBTN have already been "tested" in a sense so we know what kind of potential those have. Are they "boring"? In a sense, perhaps. However, can they be incredibly useful for a theme to have them? Absolutely.

Thank you all again for your participation and keep an eye out on Monday for "next step" announcements.

jesse · « **Reply #71 on:** February 09, 2018, 04:37:26 PM »

Whatever the ability that we go with, my hope is that it will encourage the use of a more full-fledged Philistine defense instead of primarily being another tool for splash or chump-block defenses

Josh · « **Reply #72 on:** February 09, 2018, 04:48:42 PM »

Just a friendly question for those clamoring for a FBTN ability on Rapha... Have you ever built a Philistine defense with Saph in it and tried to block every rescue attempt with him?

jbeers285 · « **Reply #73 on:** February 09, 2018, 04:55:04 PM »

It's a little different in that Saph doesn't stop all your own battle winners. (Granted 2 of the philistine battle winners are weapons.)

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #74 on:** February 09, 2018, 04:59:56 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on February 09, 2018, 04:48:42 PM

Just a friendly question for those clamoring for a FBTN ability on Rapha... Have you ever built a Philistine defense with Saph in it and tried to block every rescue attempt with him?

When you're up against clay, preventing a single battle winner doesn't do a whole lot.

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Author Topic: The 2018 Community Created Card: Special ability voting (Read 14050 times)

TheHobbit13