The 2018 Community Created Card: Special ability voting

[jesse]

Wow, a tie between #1 and #4 after 38 people have voted so far! Not sure how we can combine the two abilities, as they're so different (both are awesome though imo)

EDIT: make that an 18-18 tie with 41 voters! So exciting! 

[redemption collector 777]

Wow nice. At this point it seems like it is going to be either #1 or #4 or maybe both. (unless something all the sudden happens and the other options gets lots of votes all the sudden.)

[Ironisaac]

BREAKING NEWS, #4 HAS PULLED AHEAD BY 1 VOTE

[Gabe]

I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.

[Kevinthedude]

I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.

What reason could players possibly have not to want to stack powerful extra abilities on their cards just because those cards are already powerful?

[ChristianSoldier]

I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.

I voted for it as my second choice mostly due to the protection and with the possibility of cool shenanigans, although I admit I didn't really think too hard about it's interactions, I didn't really care about either of the searches or the wide negates and I didn't think 5 really fit for him specifically. My first choice (of these 5) was the Toss one, mostly because it was the closest to my suggestion, and I was hoping I could push the idea closer to my suggestion.

[Watchman]

I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.

I concur. It seems it would cause more confusion than anything (two special abilities for one character?). It would make more sense for the ability to be a band ability instead of a copy ability; that way, Philly giants have a way to band to one another, it’s a stronger block having two ECs in battle instead of one, and the ability of the second Philly would be activated once the second EC enters battle anyways. Also, there’s no Reserve search element for Phillies (which would be a nice boost/benefit to that theme), and the ability can be negated at any point.

[The Guardian]

It's also possible that people are really wanting the protection ability. Philistines are obviously not a chump blocking defense so keeping them on the table (as Evil Characters) is always the challenge.

[Watchman]

It's also possible that people are really wanting the protection ability. Philistines are obviously not a chump blocking defense so keeping them on the table (as Evil Characters) is always the challenge.

That’s the one part of that ability I like since Phillies currently don’t have protection in territory. It’s the rest of the ability that I don’t believe will function well.

[The Schaefer]

It's also possible that people are really wanting the protection ability. Philistines are obviously not a chump blocking defense so keeping them on the table (as Evil Characters) is always the challenge.

This is exactly why I voted for it as one of my 2. Based on the current discussion and polls
it looks like 1 and 4 are the front runners and the second ability of 4 is questionable. Although it is a very intriguing and unique ability it would be hard pressed to keep that ability with cards like goliath, saph, king achish, philistine armor bearer, and delilah. I would propose that a hybrid of 1 and 4 that eliminates this ability as it is problematic (still love the idea).

My suggestion would look like.

WC/TC

Protect Giants in your territory from opponents. When Rapha enters battle you may negate characters and enhancements (except philistines and giant slayers) or search deck or reserve for a black weapon or philistine. Cannot be Prevented.

This is just my personal opinion of how we could merge the abilities of the current top suggestions. I'm sure not everyone would be completely happy with it but, the more we can make the final product functional and powerful while still staying true to what the community wants the better.

[redemption collector 777]

It's also possible that people are really wanting the protection ability. Philistines are obviously not a chump blocking defense so keeping them on the table (as Evil Characters) is always the challenge.

This is exactly why I voted for it as one of my 2. Based on the current discussion and polls
it looks like 1 and 4 are the front runners and the second ability of 4 is questionable. Although it is a very intriguing and unique ability it would be hard pressed to keep that ability with cards like goliath, saph, king achish, philistine armor bearer, and delilah. I would propose that a hybrid of 1 and 4 that eliminates this ability as it is problematic (still love the idea).

My suggestion would look like.

WC/TC

Protect Giants in your territory from opponents. When Rapha enters battle you may negate characters and enhancements (except philistines and giant slayers) or search deck or reserve for a black weapon or philistine. Cannot be Prevented.

This is just my personal opinion of how we could merge the abilities of the current top suggestions. I'm sure not everyone would be completely happy with it but, the more we can make the final product functional and powerful while still staying true to what the community wants the better.

This idea does sound pretty good to me.

[ChristianSoldier]

My suggestion would look like.

WC/TC

Protect Giants in your territory from opponents. When Rapha enters battle you may negate characters and enhancements (except philistines and giant slayers) or search deck or reserve for a black weapon or philistine. Cannot be Prevented.

I wasn't really a big fan of option 1, but I could get behind an ability something like this. It forces the player to make a choice (either get the card or use the negate) and it still give protection for Philistines.

[Kor]

I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.

I mean I wanted the protect ability.  But just because a card is already good doesn’t mean other cards aren’t printed that improve it, that happens all the time.  For example, new Jerusalem essentially ‘gained’ new abilities as The Second Coming.  Is #4 too good?  It is possible, though I don’t think it is so powerful compared to other cards in the game that it isn’t worth testing.

[The Schaefer]

I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.

I mean I wanted the protect ability.  But just because a card is already good doesn’t mean other cards aren’t printed that improve it, that happens all the time.  For example, new Jerusalem essentially ‘gained’ new abilities as The Second Coming.  Is #4 too good?  It is possible, though I don’t think it is so powerful compared to other cards in the game that it isn’t worth testing.

As is the second ability would need changing. With king achish, Rapha, and Saph it's too powerful. Saph just has to block preventing the next enhancement by an opponent naturally then using Achish's ability play an OT evil enhancement that wins the battle. It basically guarantees your opponent has to have a CBP or CBN negate/interrupt just to not lose every battle. It might seem a little difficult to set up type 1 but type 2 it's not at all. The ability would get watered down for sure.

[Red Wing]

I voted for #4 because it was the only option that didn't have free reserve access and wasn't super bland.

[TheHobbit13]

I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.

I mean I wanted the protect ability.  But just because a card is already good doesn’t mean other cards aren’t printed that improve it, that happens all the time.  For example, new Jerusalem essentially ‘gained’ new abilities as The Second Coming.  Is #4 too good?  It is possible, though I don’t think it is so powerful compared to other cards in the game that it isn’t worth testing.

As is the second ability would need changing. With king achish, Rapha, and Saph it's too powerful. Saph just has to block preventing the next enhancement by an opponent naturally then using Achish's ability play an OT evil enhancement that wins the battle. It basically guarantees your opponent has to have a CBP or CBN negate/interrupt just to not lose every battle. It might seem a little difficult to set up type 1 but type 2 it's not at all. The ability would get watered down for sure.

Saph with Horses basically does this now in 2 cards. There are many cbp/cbn negates as well as territory class negaters.

[Kor]

I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.

I mean I wanted the protect ability.  But just because a card is already good doesn’t mean other cards aren’t printed that improve it, that happens all the time.  For example, new Jerusalem essentially ‘gained’ new abilities as The Second Coming.  Is #4 too good?  It is possible, though I don’t think it is so powerful compared to other cards in the game that it isn’t worth testing.

As is the second ability would need changing. With king achish, Rapha, and Saph it's too powerful. Saph just has to block preventing the next enhancement by an opponent naturally then using Achish's ability play an OT evil enhancement that wins the battle. It basically guarantees your opponent has to have a CBP or CBN negate/interrupt just to not lose every battle. It might seem a little difficult to set up type 1 but type 2 it's not at all. The ability would get watered down for sure.

Well, I play type 2.  And like you say, you could set this up at some point in most games.  But that is a 3 card combo to play a (not even CBN) battle win each turn.  Those already exist.  Nergalsharezzar+Swift horses+Babylonian.  The Sanhedrin+proud Pharisee+prison.  Naaman+chariots.  Tower of thebez+woman+stone.  There are many more, and my point was that while good it doesn’t totally outclass what is already there.

[The Schaefer]

I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.

I mean I wanted the protect ability.  But just because a card is already good doesn’t mean other cards aren’t printed that improve it, that happens all the time.  For example, new Jerusalem essentially ‘gained’ new abilities as The Second Coming.  Is #4 too good?  It is possible, though I don’t think it is so powerful compared to other cards in the game that it isn’t worth testing.

As is the second ability would need changing. With king achish, Rapha, and Saph it's too powerful. Saph just has to block preventing the next enhancement by an opponent naturally then using Achish's ability play an OT evil enhancement that wins the battle. It basically guarantees your opponent has to have a CBP or CBN negate/interrupt just to not lose every battle. It might seem a little difficult to set up type 1 but type 2 it's not at all. The ability would get watered down for sure.

Saph with Horses basically does this now in 2 cards. There are many cbp/cbn negates as well as territory class negaters.

Saph and horses doesn't work as the interrupt on the horses interrupts saph's prevent ability so if you play an enhancement the prevent wont take place until after the enhancement and so any battle winner would cause special initiative to happen before the prevent would be active for him. Unless, i'm just completely misunderstanding how that works anyways. And as for CBP/CBN negates and TC class ones not enough get played and are available themes to justify having a heavily abuseable block where you play first battle winner followed by a prevent for whatever they have to answer it. The protect clause on #4 just makes it harder to deal with too. Not saying it's impossible but overall would likely not make it through testing because of this interaction, goliath, etc. That's all I'm saying. I just provided an example that is pretty rough for most decks to deal with on a regular basis.

Well, I play type 2.  And like you say, you could set this up at some point in most games.  But that is a 3 card combo to play a (not even CBN) battle win each turn.  Those already exist.  Nergalsharezzar+Swift horses+Babylonian.  The Sanhedrin+proud Pharisee+prison.  Naaman+chariots.  Tower of thebez+woman+stone.  There are many more, and my point was that while good it doesn’t totally outclass what is already there.

It's totally different here. #4 protects the cards to do it unlike the examples you gave, its also more reliable because of Philistine outpost and Philistine armor bearer. You can basically have the block I mentioned from a very early point in the game and be able to abuse it reliably because of Outpost and Armor bearer. The ability to re use this interaction and have it be protected by one of the enablers with it all being easily searchable is too much imo. I doesn't need to be CBN if you can just keep doing it over and over and over and over regardless of whether something dies in battle. So yes imo it totally outclasses what is already there. This is also just a singular interaction available. There are plenty of options to abuse with it. not just the combo I mentioned.

EDIT: I really just want to say that what is OP or bad for the game is always going to be opinionated to some degree. I'm personally of the opinion that the second ability of #4 is probably that. I get where other people are coming from about it but ultimately I don't think the ability will stick in testing.

[TheHobbit13]

ah that's right. Either way I still think that it would bring philistines back into the loop a bit for T2 or defensive heavy decks with more of what they do best as opposed to just evening things out through drawing. And Achish isn't a giant so you can handle him in territory.  Goliath+Saph is really good too but then again by themselves they are a bit mediocre. Hard to make philistines more relevant without making them better. I love the potential with diviners and priests too .

One is a great option too and I actually prefer that because of reserve access for weapons.

[Kor]

It's totally different here. #4 protects the cards to do it unlike the examples you gave, its also more reliable because of Philistine outpost and Philistine armor bearer. You can basically have the block I mentioned from a very early point in the game and be able to abuse it reliably because of Outpost and Armor bearer. The ability to re use this interaction and have it be protected by one of the enablers with it all being easily searchable is too much imo. I doesn't need to be CBN if you can just keep doing it over and over and over and over regardless of whether something dies in battle. So yes imo it totally outclasses what is already there. This is also just a singular interaction available. There are plenty of options to abuse with it. not just the combo I mentioned.

EDIT: I really just want to say that what is OP or bad for the game is always going to be opinionated to some degree. I'm personally of the opinion that the second ability of #4 is probably that. I get where other people are coming from about it but ultimately I don't think the ability will stick in testing.

King Actish isn't actually a giant so he wouldn't be protected.  Damascus searches out pharisees and syrians.  Tower of thebez protects woman of thebez.  The deceiver can search out human characters for any theme.  Most themes have various other protections.  There are pros and cons to each combination.

That being said, if #4 turns out to be too strong in testing as is, a change as simple as 'protect other giants in territory from opponents' would almost certainly open up enough of a weakness.  And such a change might be necessary with such a powerful and versatile secondary ability.

[Gabe]

That being said, if #4 turns out to be too strong in testing as is, a change as simple as 'protect other giants in territory from opponents' would almost certainly open up enough of a weakness.  And such a change might be necessary with such a powerful and versatile secondary ability.

The protection isn't what concerns me or what I doubt will make it through testing. It's the giving of double abilities to characters that I find unlikely to see print.

[TheJaylor]

We could just allow Rapha to gain an ability when he enters battle and then give him something a little more tame on top of it such as the protection and something akin to option 1.

[Kor]

That being said, if #4 turns out to be too strong in testing as is, a change as simple as 'protect other giants in territory from opponents' would almost certainly open up enough of a weakness.  And such a change might be necessary with such a powerful and versatile secondary ability.

The protection isn't what concerns me or what I doubt will make it through testing. It's the giving of double abilities to characters that I find unlikely to see print.

That was just an example of a possible change, could tweak the copy also if necessary.  And yes, gaining double abilities is very good.  But not fundamentally different than equipping a weapon on a character.  Or a banding ability bringing another character into battle.  In both cases you gain 'double abilities'.

[Watchman]

We could just allow Rapha to gain an ability when he enters battle and then give him something a little more tame on top of it such as the protection and something akin to option 1.

That’s pretty OP and sounds very similar to the current copy ability of option 4.

If the protection ability is added to option 1 perhaps the ability could be like this:

TC/WC
“Protect Philistines in territory from discard abilities. If blocking, you may search deck or Reserve for a Philistine giant or a black weapon. Negate characters (except Philistines and Giant-Slayers) and non-weapon class Enhancements in battle. Cannot be prevented.”

I feel this is a great opportunity for black brigade to have a FBTN character; and who Rapha was is the perfect character, IMO, to have this ability.  It would be a shame for this opportunity to be passed up.  Hopefully option 1 will prevail, even with a modified ability like I proposed above, which I believe would be the best of both worlds.

[TheHobbit13]

I think protect from opponents is more appropriate as holy grail is probably more of a concern than territory discard in the current meta. So :protect from discard and conversion" can be docked down to "protect from opponents".

If that ability is too long, I would suggest:

“Protect Philistines in territory from discard abilities opponents. If blocking, You may search deck or Reserve for a Philistine giant or a black weapon. When blocking, negate characters (except Philistines and Giant-Slayers) and non-weapon class Enhancements in battle. Cannot be Prevented Negated.”