The 2018 Community Created Card: Special ability voting

[The Guardian]

Hey guys, here is what I did.

Instead of simply copying the suggestions, I tried to take all the ideas and create 5 unique abilities.

For example, many people had an idea that included a search (usually for a Philistine and/or a weapon) so I made an ability that focuses on that (actually 2 since that was a common idea, but one is TC and the other just a regular ability). Other people suggested something with Toss so I made a Toss option ability, a "battle extender" ability, etc.

If you don't see anything from the suggestion you made, I apologize, I wanted to keep the options to 4 or 5.

I am going to give everyone two votes, but you cannot change your votes. If two of the abilities end up being very close in votes, we will consider seeing if they can be integrated together somehow. I will set the initial deadline for 5 days. If the votes come in much more quickly then that, but we have a couple options that are very close, we might do a second round after making some tweaks to the top vote getters. Suffice to say, the final version might look different than any of these, especially once we are able to start playtesting with this new character.

We will allow and encourage discussion on why you voted for the abilities you did. Ready? Set. Go! 

[Ironisaac]

I just want to say that the top option (the most popular at the time i'm writing this) seems super boring. Don't get me wrong, it's really good, but that's probably about the most generic option. And I know my original submission had searching in it, but after thinking about philistines in general, i really don't think they should have someone who can just search out all their best characters. I mean, on one hand, it will give them a good boost, but they are already so boring after being super overplayed the past few years, that they need a boost in a fun way, not just a generic search and FBTN character.  i personally like the last two options the best, as they introduce something that we have seen very little of, and it's in a fun way that also gives philistines a good boost.   

[Noah]

Of the abilities that have been proposed for this card, I think that Toss and Add to Battle are the two most useful/unique for Philistines.

Toss - Philistines already have 2 of the best/most versatile toss enhancements in the Spears from the starter deck. These cards would see much more play if they had multiple ways of being used within Philistines. Also, being able to toss CBN enhancements lets the preexisting plethora of negate cards already in Black/Philistines see more play and be more consistently useful.

Add to Battle - As I've stated previously, one of Philistine's greatest weaknesses as a theme is Angel of the Lord. Because Angel of the Lord is in every deck, and because Philistines have no reliable way to add 2 characters to battle, Angel of the Lord is almost always a free soul for your opponent. The primary exceptions are if you have a CM or FA to stop a lone hero, or if you use Unknown Nation and it isn't negated, but both of those situations can be easily avoided by CBN banding or Three Woes.

As for the other abilities, Philistines already have a lot of searching and negating, so that seems superfluous, and I'm not a fan of having abilities that trigger on other characters entering battle because it is easy for it to become unbalanced with preexisting abilities and limits/dictates what you can do with characters in the future (for example, Hidden Treasures).

One weakness that Philistines do have is limited access to the reserve. In light of the search abilities already available to Philistines, I would like to see an ability that allows Armor Bearer and Philistine Outpost to target Reserve in addition to deck/discard.

[The Guardian]

Haven't voted yet because I'm kinda torn here...

I really wish we could have all the options, unfiltered, like last time. However, as that's probably unrealistic given it's later than when we started voting last year, then I suppose this is the most efficient way to do it. Just missing the wide variety.


-I would definitely vote for one in a heartbeat if it was the original version. 

Some of the suggestions were too long, some were too unrealistic.

I was attempting to save us all from the inevitable "Well I wouldn't have voted for that option if I knew that part was going to be taken away..." that would have occurred had I just straight copied and pasted...

[Kevinthedude]

I would vote for the special ability copier or the add to battle one if Philistines already had a FBTN character but they don't and even though it is kinda boring I that giants of all people deserve a FBTN character. As for the searching attached to it, I would prefer it not to have reserve access since black already has a character with reserve access and I think reserve access should be relatively scare but as long as it isn't territory class reserve access I'm not nearly as concerned.

[The Guardian]

I would vote for the special ability copier or the add to battle one if Philistines already had a FBTN character but they don't and even though it is kinda boring I that giants of all people deserve a FBTN character. As for the searching attached to it, I would prefer it not to have reserve access since black already has a character with reserve access and I think reserve access should be relatively scare but as long as it isn't territory class reserve access I'm not nearly as concerned.

One of the things we are paying close attention to for the next set (and really all future sets) is to be selective with how many cards get "deck or Reserve" access. Many cards will only be getting one or the other. Other cards will be similar to option 2 in which they can search deck for one thing and Reserve for a different thing (thus creating more strategy in how you construct your Reserve).

[jbeers285]

The copy ability scares me since gained abilities are CBN every philistine could gain Deliliah's ability every battle. I don't think every philistine being Gomer is a good thing for the game at all.

[The Guardian]

The copy ability scares me since gained abilities are CBN every philistine could gain Deliliah's ability every battle. I don't think every philistine being Gomer is a good thing for the game at all.

I haven't looked at the "gain" entry in the REG lately, but I'm not sure if that's accurate. If it was, I'm still not sure it's that scary...you would have to keep both Rapha and Delilah alive the whole time. I'd probably be more worried about every blocker being able to turn into an Armorbearer.

If it was a problem, then "copy" would likely be a better choice

[The Guardian]

I feel like some people voted for the Paul they voted for last year because he was Territory class, and that ended up getting removed. I just like having the opportunity to build off of individual ability ideas and tweaking them as a group. The Watchman I feel is a great example of a card that people voted for that changed from the original submission to the much-better streamlined final version thanks to lots of input. I know playtesting is also a big factor in changing these types of things/deciding on what to do, but I feel like that playtesting part has already somewhat been done, and the original creative part is somewhat lost here.

Keep in mind that the listed abilities do not necessarily represent the final version. They are simply more refined starting points than we had last year.

[RedemptionAggie]

Gained abilities are not inherently CBN - that's specific to those gained from set-aside, at this point. I think Leading Others Astray (EC) is currently the only card that allows a card to gain an ability that's not a set-aside, so it could be something we overlooked.

Copy might be a better choice, though - gain doesn't currently include a mechanism to activate the gained ability, while copy does.

[Watchman]

1. Not a fan of a 12/12 FBTN character in black brigade, especially with Bringing Fear. Easily recurred and CBP means there's almost no way around it. With searching and Reserve it seems too good.

Bringing Fear was factored into the creation of Rapha's ability.  If used, it would negate Rapha's own ability, creating potential negatives for the defender and possible benefits to the rescuer.  It's a choice the defender has to make in a tight situation, all the while providing balance to either keeping Rapha's ability active or use BF instead.

[Master Q]

1. Not a fan of a 12/12 FBTN character in black brigade, especially with Bringing Fear. Easily recurred and CBP means there's almost no way around it. With searching and Reserve it seems too good.

Bringing Fear was factored into the creation of Rapha's ability.  If used, it would negate Rapha's own ability, creating potential negatives for the defender and possible benefits to the rescuer.  It's a choice the defender has to make in a tight situation, all the while providing balance to either keeping Rapha's ability active or use BF instead.

I don't see how Bringing Fear would be a detriment at all. Sure, you potentially lose the card you search for, but a CBN negate good Enhancements and Characters is still FBTN. You aren't balancing anything with a free negate that keeps the battle at the same game state. Scratch that- it doesn't negate EE, so you're far better off opening yourself up for being able to use even more of black's plethora of negates. There's no downside that I can see.

[Gabe]

I voted for the first option which seems really awesome. Reserve access? Yes please! FBTN? YES! And it’s the only one that isn’t TC.

[jbeers285]

I voted for the add to battle ability. (The last option)

I personally believe the battle phase is the most fun part of the game and add to battle gives us real battle phases.

[redemption collector 777]

I really like options 1 ,4 and 5.

I wish I could have chosen all three of them but that is not the case.

[TXJonathan]

I voted for the fourth option. The Philistines really need a better protection card and the ability to use another character's ability in terr is an excellent idea. It would open up some great combo choices.

[EmJayBee83]

I really like the copy special ability option. Besides being a neat ability it fits well into the theme of the character.

As one of the folks who brought up the idea of toss originally, I wish that option #3 was not limited to CBN enhancements (are there any non-CBN enhancements whose SA contains the word "negated"?) . Although it probably needs some limitation for game balance reasons, I was just hoping it could be something different from what we already have.

A question for folks voting in favor of the options that provide reserve access (because I don't see how the reserve part of the suggested SAs would be particularly useful). If you are running Rapha of Gath you have already bought deeply into a Philistine defense and most probably one featuring giants. Most of the characters/enhancements supporting that theme are generally useful; so it seems to me that you would want pretty much every card supporting that defense in your deck at the start. What specific card or cards do you see keeping in your reserve for this type of defense?

I voted for the first option which seems really awesome. Reserve access? Yes please! FBTN? YES! And it’s the only one that isn’t TC. [emphasis added -- mjb]

I think TC fits this specific card. The sons went to battle, but Scripture doesn't mention the father doing the same.

[Josh]

I voted for the add to battle ability. (The last option)

I personally believe the battle phase is the most fun part of the game and add to battle gives us real battle phases.

I like giving an add to battle ability to Philistines (I included one in my proposed ability), but not one so easily splashable.  This character could be added to the Fire Foxes/Outsiders/Sabbath Breaker/Messenger defense, or a demon defense, or any defense for that matter, and the mere threat of a 12/12 character adding itself to battle at any time, CBN, seems way too useful.

But I guess that is what the playtesting portion is for?  Still not sure which one I want to vote for...

[The Guardian]

As one of the folks who brought up the idea of toss originally, I wish that option #3 was not limited to CBN enhancements (are there any non-CBN enhancements whose SA contains the word "negated"?) . Although it probably needs some limitation for game balance reasons, I was just hoping it could be something different from what we already have.

As I've mentioned, the ability listed above does not mean that's what it would be exactly. I have found the Toss ability from RoJ Strong Angel to be extremely effective (mostly against Scattered) and it has been completely worth using that version of TSA. That's why I started with that (something I knew was balanced and effective), but could certainly be tweaked along the way if a Toss option was voted for.

A question for folks voting in favor of the options that provide reserve access (because I don't see how the reserve part of the suggested SAs would be particularly useful). If you are running Rapha of Gath you have already bought deeply into a Philistine defense and most probably one featuring giants. Most of the characters/enhancements supporting that theme are generally useful; so it seems to me that you would want pretty much every card supporting that defense in your deck at the start. What specific card or cards do you see keeping in your reserve for this type of defense?

I haven't voted yet because I'm not sure of my 2nd choice, but option 1 will be my first vote.

I believe that Reserve access will be quite useful as I can put cards like the black Spears (from the starter deck) in the Reserve as back-up battle winners allowing me to put more negates in the main deck. (Every Man's Sword is another nice option for the Reserve). If I'm running a tight, 50 card deck, I likely would not have room for all the giants, so I can stash a few extra in the Reserve for longer, drawn out games.

[Gabe]

I think TC fits this specific card. The sons went to battle, but Scripture doesn't mention the father doing the same.

Scripture doesn't speak about Rapha, nor should it. He's not an important character to the narrative. But we can assume things based on what we know from that time period. Namely that children followed in their parents vocation. Clearly all of this sons were among the top soldiers in the Philistine army. It's a fairly safe assumption that in his day he was also among the top warriors. And while scripture doesn't cover Philistine conquests apart from some that took place against Israel, we can be assured that there were plenty of other conquests that took place. Rapha doesn't strike me as a guy who sat a home avoiding a fight (which is what TC means to me).

[TheHobbit13]

I like #1 but I think it should be a walking bringing fear--> "Negate opposing characters and enhancements". I think that is more a long the lines of what RDT proposed also. There are so many cbp enhancements or ways to gain cbp that this would provide a refreshing counter to all of these.


And yeah, reserve access is really good...getting out every man's sword is nice!

[The Guardian]

I like #1 but I think it should be a walking bringing fear--> "Negate opposing characters and enhancements". I think that is more a long the lines of what RDT proposed also. There are so many cbp enhancements or ways to gain cbp that this would provide a refreshing counter to all of these.


And yeah, reserve access is really good...getting out every man's sword is nice!

FTR, the ability was a based on a combination of RDT's suggestion and Watchman's suggestion.

[The Schaefer]

Overall Rapha and Giants in general really felt like they should have a FBTN character to me. KoT like. I initially wanted a Toss ability when I submitted my version of  a special ability as I thought that it better reflects what FBTN was years ago since negate all doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to due to more CBP and CBN stuff. As it sits now the Toss ability suggested doesn't really fit the bill of a FBTN character and the first one is closer to it.

However the ability with TC protection for giants from opponents is a pretty big draw for me. I'm not sure how much that clause would impact type 1 but in type 2 that clause is huge. Philistines don't have a good protect fort but this version of Rapha would give them imo the best evil TC protect card since gates of jerusalem.  I also like the potential of the copy ability quite a bit due to the craftiness and reserve usage. Just a really sweet concept.

I'd personally like to see the combination of the protect ability with a FBTNesq ability but, that elimates any reserve usage for him which many people want with him (including myself). All around great input and thoughts from everyone. Great job Justin on making this process as awesome as it's been.

[The Guardian]

Thanks Joe--I totally understand your thinking, I want all of these abilities for Rapha 

[EmJayBee83]

A question for folks voting in favor of the options that provide reserve access (because I don't see how the reserve part of the suggested SAs would be particularly useful).

I believe that Reserve access will be quite useful ...

Thank you for the explanation. I was thinking of the reserve functioning as a sideboard not as a deck addition, which explains--I think--my befuddlement.